Info LLLReptile should be closed down (BuyerBeware)

[chkadii]

I agree the test was to rule out a broken jaw. But also look at it from my point a lot of people in here has flamed me there is very few normal reply's in here.People are even telling me the vet is no good.And they don't even know the story they are guessing. So lets get that squared away. I drove 2 hours to them.You see that snakes bottom jaw that's split. My first thought was a broken jaw. He told me he had mouth rot before that radiograph. I drove 2 hours just for that radiograph of that snakes mouth? I feel I did the right thing and I would do it all over again. I put this on here to show what I was dealing with from them and how far I should push this considering the condition of the snake I was sent. At first I was bashed pretty hard. And everyone keeps bringing up that I wanted them to pay the vet bills. Yes I did give that option I would be satisfied with, but I also made them 2 more offers besides that option in the same email. And they was not interested in what I had to offer only what they where offering. And yes I agree again on the no cash back, its in their policy plain as day. Just because I made a offer goes not mean I am going to get it. I am not stupid but since when is it a crime to suggest a offer I would be satisfied with. That contract was broke on both side's when they shipped the snake like that. I have bought snakes from some of the biggest names in the business and I would never bash them like this cause I would not have to. They would not send out a animal like that to begin with and I would not have to ask them to make it right most of the people I know would make it right. Bolivian Amarali are pretty hard to find only few are breeding them. I have been looking for months for a male all the big guys seem to have none available.That is the only reason I bought it. Other wise I would have went somewhere else to make this purchase. And stick to small supply's from lllreptile, for I know their reputation. But in my own opinion if they are going to send out animal's like this maybe they do need to be closed down on animal sales. And I will say it again, I have had no problems on anything else. Matter of fact they are very fast shippers with decent prices and good communication as you can see. But when does that over ride how their animals are treated. They might deal with thousands of orders, but how many of those orders are animals. Maybe if they spent a little less time on you tube and face book they could spend a little more time looking over their animals before they ship.

I do understand your point of view. You felt let down by the company, you brought it to the BOI, and people didn't agree with you. Replies tend to come quickly here, so I can understand how overwhelming it must be to have so many people argue against you when you are already stressed out from dealing with a sick animal.

Do not lump everyone on the BOI in with each other or LLL Reptile. Each person here is an individual, and while it sometimes feels like you are being "ganged up on", everyone is posting their own two cents, not reinforcing a decision made as a collective. If you spend enough time here, you'll see people give similar opinions in one thread while they are strongly arguing different opinions in another thread.

I'm not judging you for getting the radiograph. If I were uncomfortable determining an animal's health, I'd get one done as well. I think it's great that you chose to take a closer look rather than risk the snake being untreated for a missed injury. What my point is, is that LLL Reptile should not be expected to pay for that test because nothing came of it. It's not a matter of whether or not you were unreasonable in asking for the test. The issue is that because LLL Reptile was not there at your vet's office, they cannot determine how much it looked like a broken jaw to require a radiograph. YOUR vet wasn't sure enough to make a call without the test. THEIR vets may have been able to, because they presumably see reptiles day in and day out. On the other hand, maybe their vets would have done the same thing yours did. We don't know, since you still have the snake. If you got into a fender bender, and offered to pay for the other person to get their car fixed, you'd be pretty upset if they took it to a shop that insisted they get expensive work done that they didn't really need, right? I'm not saying that is the case with you, I'm just saying that LLL Reptile can never be sure, because they were not there. So for situations like that, which require a degree of trust, they are compromising to say, "whatever damage we caused this animal, we will compensate you for." The radiograph did not indicate damage, so it doesn't count. That policy works for many breeders and sellers, because it allows them to make things right for customers while it protects them from being taken advantage of (over-the-top example: "my snake made a hissing noise so I got three opinions and twelve cultures done and now I have a $1500 bill for you!")

If we put everything else to the side - the other options that were brought up, how people feel about the options offered, etc. - if we ONLY focus on LLL Reptile's offer of $199 + mite treatment, does that offer work for you? In my opinion, it fits your criteria. I am not posting here to pass judgement on either you or LLL. I'm here to help resolve the issue. If that offer for $200 + mite treatment works for you, and it works for them, then it doesn't matter what the other offers on the table were, or whether or not everyone on the BOI understands what happened or agrees with your feelings. Don't accept the offer if you're not comfortable with it, of course, but if you are, I think you'll be happier in the long run if you take them up on it, put this thread to bed, and invest your time and attention in taking care of your boa. This thread is just going to be one more thing for you to worry about if it keeps dragging on, you know?

I wish your boa a speedy recovery, and I hope you'll share some pictures of him once he's feeling better!

 

[CwnAnnwn]

So lets get that squared away. I drove 2 hours to them.You see that snakes bottom jaw that's split. My first thought was a broken jaw. He told me he had mouth rot before that radiograph. I drove 2 hours just for that radiograph of that snakes mouth?

Oh god I am a sucker for pain, here it goes.

Why?

Why did you drive 2 hours to get to a vet when you could have took to locally?


Looking at the map, you got at least 5 vets that deal with reptiles with in 20 miles of blairsville.

They even have a doctor that actually treated zoo animals. Don't tell me they scorn you too?

 

[EdwardK]

Actually I do know the story. You can easily tell if a snake has a broken jaw just by propping open the mouth and examining the bone structure. If your vet had to take an x-ray to decide it wasn't broken then they aren't a very good reptile vet. End of story.

Actually this isn't really a valid point. Yes the presence of the fracture could be determined without an x-ray but the extent of the fracture and whether or not its showing signs that the bone is infected to a greater extent than can be determined via a visual inspection. A visual inspection would also miss as to whether or not the infection originated deeper in the tissues (as people often forget or don't realize that abscesses in the face/head of a snake often drain into the mouth) as the minor appearance of infection in the mouth could be indicative of a bigger problem.
In this case the recommendation of an x-ray would be considered a part of a conservative assessment and not a sign of a "bad vet".

The offer by the store is fair but if there were a lot of mites on the snake, I would have been pissed about them shipping it without checking with me as it would be an overt sign of a problem with the snake.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

Actually this isn't really a valid point. Yes the presence of the fracture could be determined without an x-ray but the extent of the fracture and whether or not its showing signs that the bone is infected to a greater extent than can be determined via a visual inspection. A visual inspection would also miss as to whether or not the infection originated deeper in the tissues (as people often forget or don't realize that abscesses in the face/head of a snake often drain into the mouth) as the minor appearance of infection in the mouth could be indicative of a bigger problem.
In this case the recommendation of an x-ray would be considered a part of a conservative assessment and not a sign of a "bad vet".

If you're agreeing that a visual examination is sufficient to determine if a fracture is present but that an x-ray can determine how severe the fracture is, why would an x-ray be necessary if it was determined visually that there was no fracture to begin with? If the vet was competent enough to notice through normal examination that there was no fracture, why would an honest vet still recommend an x-ray?

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

I think part of your argument is that they're just being safe, but if that's the case they could have done blood tests too and ran the bill up over a grand. Either way, it's not the seller's responsibility to cover those costs.

 

[EdwardK]

If you're agreeing that a visual examination is sufficient to determine if a fracture is present but that an x-ray can determine how severe the fracture is, why would an x-ray be necessary if it was determined visually that there was no fracture to begin with? If the vet was competent enough to notice through normal examination that there was no fracture, why would an honest vet still recommend an x-ray?

So a simple visual inspection that there is a fracture tells you the extent of it? If you broke your arm in three places close together could you tell that was broken in three places via a visual inspection? What if the middle break was actually fragmented? This cannot be seen via a visual inspection (and possibly not with a palpation due to swelling etc) but directly affects the required treatment as it would require a more invasive treatment response.
This is why an x-ray recommendation would be a conservative treatment and is not the sign of a bad vet.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

Whether or not my arm is broken in one place or a million, I can tell with visual inspection that it's broken lol. The x-ray is to determine how badly, this is what we're both saying. If my arm looks perfectly fine and doesn't appear to be broken as determined by an experienced doctor, why would an x-ray be necessary?

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

In this case there was no fracture at all, so why would an x-ray be necessary? The determine how badly it WASN'T fractured? I don't understand what you're getting at lol.

 

[EdwardK]

If you're agreeing that a visual examination is sufficient to determine if a fracture is present but that an x-ray can determine how severe the fracture is, why would an x-ray be necessary if it was determined visually that there was no fracture to begin with? If the vet was competent enough to notice through normal examination that there was no fracture, why would an honest vet still recommend an x-ray?

People also forget that a broken/fractured bone isn't necessarily separated as in broken directly in two. A bone can also splinter along its length which would be difficult to determine via a visual inspection.

Also your totally ignoring the fact that the x-ray would also tell the extent of any infection in the bone/tissues. As I noted above infections don't always start from the outside in.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

Let's agree to disagree. It's still not the seller's responsibility to cover costs that the buyer incurred because they wanted to be safe.

 

[Pasodama]

There is 3 offers right here not one

I said I would be satisfied with a refund of the cost of the animal plus some mite treatment, or this vet bill paid for by your company, or in (store credit for the cost of the vet bill and some mite treatment for him).

there is 3 different offers right here not one whole offer.

In bold, that is exactly what you are getting along with being allowed to keep the snake.
Actually, you are getting more since the snake price + cost of shipping (of in store credit) is more than, solely, the vet bill (of in store credit). Plus, they offered to still send you mite treatment free of charge.
What is the problem? Are you still fighting this over a case of wording? A problem, for you, that they are terming it an in store credit, for snake + shipping, rather than an in store credit for vet fee?

You also mentioned, as something acceptable, the ability to get an animal, of your choosing, within the price range of the snake you purchased. Do you not realize that, with the in store credit, you can do exactly that? You are able to choose an animal, within your/the stated price range, and purchase it with the in store credit. Where is the problem?

What you will not get is a cash refund without returning the snake.

Perhaps that is where the problem lies. There really aren't a few different possible resolutions in your mind (regardless of what you put in writing). There is only One that you will find acceptable.

Although you are getting something, that is within one of your offered/acceptable resolutions, it is still a problem because, in actuality, Only a cash refund (and keeping the snake) will do for you.
Otherwise, I do not understand why you are being so irrational &/or argumentative.

You need to accept the fact that you are not going to get a cash refund, without returning the snake, and should be thanking your lucky stars that you did not purchase the snake from someone who would have blown you off. <smh>

....

 

[Pasodama]

BTW You are incorrect about "big breeders".
Even the big breeders, &/or "best in the business", have made mistakes where they needed to work something out, to rectify the problem, with their customer/s.
Everyone is human and, thus, capable of making a mistake.
If a mistake should occur, what is most meaningful is how they deal with the problem.

....

 

[LauraB]

Face it, people of logic and reason. There are just some people who cannot be dealt with, even when given fair and satisfactory recourse.

I do see a minor problem with the snake's mouth. I would not call it life-threatening, but good you had it checked out, William. Take the credit offered to you, take care of your snake and move on. Hopefully you have quarantined that snake and already treated for the alleged mites ... for the sake of the health of the snake, since it's not healthy enough to return.

And, no, I have never purchased live animals from LLL. However, you have been offered a fair resolution. You've admitted to previous purchases from LLL. Their TOS should not be a surprise to you. Take the credit and whatever else is offered. Move on, man.

 

[sidewinder107]

I will say this guys and call it a day.Some of my offers may have sounded unreasonable,but they are just that offers.But if you dont push a little with any business you will not get any where with them and I did just that. Some of you may think I am being a hard customer to deal with here, and that's your right. Some people may even look at my emails and think i am being a little hard and unreasonable with lll and maybe over reacting with the animal. But at the end of the day, they did do me wrong and i stood up for it.If more people would do that it might change how this business deals with live orders. Yes they are a business, and yes live animals happens to be one of their products. But lets not forget what these products are. I do understand mistakes happen, but in my own opinon this was one of those mistakes that was just to big to be over looked. But for some of you to understand that, you would just have to be in my shoes and see the condition of the animal for your self.Everyone has gave me their advice on what they would do and i have listened and justified and I will say it again.This anmimal was and still is in no condition to ship back to them for a full refund. The momment this animal showed up on my door step it become my problem and i took responcability. Yes i could have cared for him my self, I could have even shipped him back, but i went out of my way to make sure it got the care it needed. I do not have a x-ray machine in my living room. And yes i do think that snake needed a x-ray of its jaw and yes the snake has got mouth rot and mites. I dont need any internet vets to tell me that. But i will say this, maybe it was over looked at lllreptile, but then again maybe not. I guess the stress of shipping him could have made the situation worse,that's a possibillty not to rule out. Maybe i did go a little far in my last email with them. But they did make me a settlement offer and as you can see i said i would accepted it. Never once have i been unreasonable with lllreptile. Yes their TOS has no cash back stated right on their website and they dont pay vet bills.But as you can see i did not offer just cash settlement offers. The problem i was having at first was getting enough in store credit to even cover the price of the animal and shipping i paid for him. Which I think is very reasonable considering the situation the animal arrived to me in. If some of you dont think so, well thats your right.But if the tables where turned you might have a different attitude about it. What i ordered
was a guranteed healthy animal. What I got was a unhealthy sick animal that needs treatment and care.

 

[BeauBoi]

I will say this guys and call it a day.Some of my offers may have sounded unreasonable,but they are just that offers.But if you dont push a little with any business you will not get any where with them and I did just that. Some of you may think I am being a hard customer to deal with here, and that's your right. Some people may even look at my emails and think i am being a little hard and unreasonable with lll and maybe over reacting with the animal. But at the end of the day, they did do me wrong and i stood up for it.If more people would do that it might change how this business deals with live orders. Yes they are a business, and yes live animals happens to be one of their products. But lets not forget what these products are. I do understand mistakes happen, but in my own opinon this was one of those mistakes that was just to big to be over looked. But for some of you to understand that, you would just have to be in my shoes and see the condition of the animal for your self.Everyone has gave me their advice on what they would do and i have listened and justified and I will say it again.This anmimal was and still is in no condition to ship back to them for a full refund. The momment this animal showed up on my door step it become my problem and i took responcability. Yes i could have cared for him my self, I could have even shipped him back, but i went out of my way to make sure it got the care it needed. I do not have a x-ray machine in my living room. And yes i do think that snake needed a x-ray of its jaw and yes the snake has got mouth rot and mites. I dont need any internet vets to tell me that. But i will say this, maybe it was over looked at lllreptile, but then again maybe not. I guess the stress of shipping him could have made the situation worse,that's a possibillty not to rule out. Maybe i did go a little far in my last email with them. But they did make me a settlement offer and as you can see i said i would accepted it. Never once have i been unreasonable with lllreptile. Yes their TOS has no cash back stated right on their website and they dont pay vet bills.But as you can see i did not offer just cash settlement offers. The problem i was having at first was getting enough in store credit to even cover the price of the animal and shipping i paid for him. Which I think is very reasonable considering the situation the animal arrived to me in. If some of you dont think so, well thats your right.But if the tables where turned you might have a different attitude about it. What i ordered
was a guranteed healthy animal. What I got was a unhealthy sick animal that needs treatment and care.

After ALL of this, you still cannot bring yourself to see that the people here were trying to HELP you.
You are what I call a "Right-Fighter", you would rather be "Right" than "Successful". I my experience people who hold that opinion are unreasonable.
You came here looking to lynch LLL, to "Shut Them Down" to use your own words, and it has become apparent that everyone agreeing with you and collectively putting LLL out of business would be the only thing that would truly make you happy.
You are STILL unable to accept that EVERY person on this forum disagrees with you, as expvidenced by your above statement that we would understand if we were in your shoes. Despite the fact that at least one person relayed to you that she HAD been in a similar (if not worse) situation and STILL thought you were wrong.
You have earned that little red box under your name. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if when this is over you have more of them, but that is neither here nor there.
If I were you, and please listen because I really mean this: If my opinion was SO unpopular that an entire forum of people who had no dog in the race told me I was wrong, I would do some serious soul searching to see where I had gone astray. Seriously, you need to take a time out and do some honest reflection. Who knows, it MIGHT go a long way to improving your life.

Sincerely,
~Beau

 

[Docglock]

sometimes maturity is knowing when to realize that you *may* have been wrong, no matter how slighted you may feel.

call this a life lesson and be glad it was only a few hundred dollars and move on. trust me, you'll have many more "unjust", more expensive life lessons in the future.

just ask yourself, in the grand scheme of things, really...it this the hill you want to die on? if it is, you need to re-examine your priorities.

best of luck.

 

[BeauBoi]

sometimes maturity is knowing when to realize that you *may* have been wrong, no matter how slighted you may feel.

call this a life lesson and be glad it was only a few hundred dollars and move on. trust me, you'll have many more "unjust", more expensive life lessons in the future.

just ask yourself, in the grand scheme of things, really...it this the hill you want to die on? if it is, you need to re-examine your priorities.

best of luck.

How was she wrong?
~Beau

 

[Docglock]

How was she wrong?
~Beau

i was referring to the OP (william?)...sorry. and wrong in the sense that he felt the TOS was somehow mis-represented. my point is that even though you feel as if you may have a valid point, sometimes you're not going to win...you need to cut your losses and move on. for a few hundred $$ in the reptile industry, that is minor. now he is dealing with the "red square" and like 15-16 pages of really petty whining on his part. it just isn't good. so, for whatever it's worth, choose your battles carefully. just my opinion.

 

[BeauBoi]

i was referring to the OP (william?)...sorry. and wrong in the sense that he felt the TOS was somehow mis-represented. my point is that even though you feel as if you may have a valid point, sometimes you're not going to win...you need to cut your losses and move on. for a few hundred $$ in the reptile industry, that is minor. now he is dealing with the "red square" and like 15-16 pages of really petty whining on his part. it just isn't good. so, for whatever it's worth, choose your battles carefully. just my opinion.

No, my bad. I was reading the thread out of order and took your post in a disjointed way. I apologize.
~Beau

 

[Docglock]

No, my bad. I was reading the thread out of order and took your post in a disjointed way. I apologize.
~Beau

LOL...no worries