Bad Guy Kelly's Chameleons -- Unethical Breeder/Scammer

[Lucille]

I have nothing else to add to this thread but that someone really needs to explicitly state that Paypal was NOT cheated. Paypal offers a buyer protection service and this service has a fee attached. If one chooses the friends and family service that fee is not paid for a that particular transaction and the buyer protection service is not provided. It is that simple.

Paypal makes a living by the fees. Avoiding those fees not only leaves one without protection, it uses Paypal's service without compensating them, especially when one lies about 'friend or family' when it is actually a business transaction.

Perhaps we need to get Paypal's take on this difference of opinion.

 

[DanSB]

Paypal makes a living by the fees. Avoiding those fees not only leaves one without protection, it uses Paypal's service without compensating them, especially when one lies about 'friend or family' when it is actually a business transaction.

Perhaps we need to get Paypal's take on this difference of opinion.

As far as Paypal was concerned it was not a business transaction because the fee was not paid (it was classified by the person who sent money as a friends and family money send). As such Paypal incurred no risk of a charge back or other business related liabilities because it was not classified as a business transaction.

I know what Paypal would say and it would be something along the lines of what I said above. But you are more than welcome to try to contact them for a statement. I know large corporations very well; if they felt it was worth while to keep people from paying for goods and services using the friends and family payment method they would definitely have already done so. In fact if I recall from having a business account with them (many) years ago they used to automatically charge your business account for all payments and seem to have taken that away.

I personally really like Paypal's solution: If you want their buyer protection service you select the option that you are buying, if you don't you select you're sending money to friends and family. Very simple, very easy, and the least likely to cause anger because it says right on the screen what you're getting.

Brian got bamboozled in this instance and I've seen where quite a few here have as well, but everyone has to admit Paypal at least didn't do anything wrong... Genius on Paypal's part!

 

[Craig Wyatt]

Lucille you seem to stuck on the PayPal thing. You have not made any mention what so ever about Kelly ripping off Brian. Guessing you see no fault in Kelly. That is the main purpose of this thread. I suggest you either stop posting in this thread or see if you can find any other fault that may have happened in this transaction. (Hint. Read the title and work it through from there) I've seen you do this many many times before. You get stuck on stupid and you can't break away.

**at this point anyone who reads this thread fully understands your position with the PayPal aspect of the thread****

 

[kenmare]

Kelly's Chameleons - Unethical Breeder/Scammer

My sole purpose in posting here was to warn others about the transaction I went through with Kelly Smith. I shared this story on 2 other chameleon Facebook sites and was encouraged by several breeder friends of mine to post on the BOI so that it would become a permanent record. The posts and the entire tone of conversations on the on the chameleon sites were vastly different than what has occurred here on Fauna. Everyone on those forums was much more concerned about the unhealthy condition of the animals she sold and the dishonest aftermath when I returned them to her. No name calling or questioning my integrity. Kelly often advertises her chams on here and I thought other prospective buyers should be forewarned. I do not enjoy engaging in pissing matches or having my integrity called into question by people who don't know me.

I was upfront about how the Paypal transaction took place. Nobody "called me on it" as was stated in a previous post. I was open about my culpability. I sent it that way out of ignorance and naivete. I know in my heart what my intentions were and they were certainly not to defraud Paypal. I find the comments made in a previous post about me "lying and cheating Paypal" to be very offensive. The definition of cheating is "to act dishonestly in order to gain an advantage." I fail to see where my actions have resulted in any advantage whatsoever to me. Instead, I left myself stupidly unprotected and open to be cheated by someone who truly did gain an advantage. I did not post here to gain anyone's sympathy and certainly not to be judged. I really don't appreciate someone scolding me like they are the all-knowing mother figure here on Fauna. Yes, that was a "snarky" comment, my first and last.

I was told that the BOI was the proper forum to warn others about breeders who have engaged in unethical transactions. By posting here, I am under no illusions that Kelly is going to have an epiphany and all of a sudden become an honest breeder. She has ignored all of my texts and has posted only once on one of the other forums with a weak statement about how long she had to hold onto the animals before we could ship. Not sure what that has to do with the condition of the animals she sent me but that was her main defense.
As you can see, she has been notified by several others about this thread and has not responded. The silence is deafening.

 

[Seakit]

Well said Brain!

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Brian, I certainly appreciate you bringing your experience here such that you might save someone else a similarly unpleasant result.

 

[kenmare]

Kelly's Chameleons - Unethical Breeder/Scammer

Thanks to both of the last people who just posted. Yes, my only intention is to warn other people about the experience I just went through. As stated before, other people on the Chameleon sites have gone through similar experiences with her so this is not an isolated incident. Thanks again.

 

[Lucille]

You have not made any mention what so ever about Kelly ripping off Brian.

and going forward, continue to help the community by letting us all know about your bad experience.

On the contrary.

 

[Craig Wyatt]

Lmao!!! That comment was a drop of water in a 10 gallon paint bucket. Kinda hard to see. Good call though. I see your major concern on the real topic now.

 

[Craig Wyatt]

Here is 2 email addresses for Kelly Smith.

[email protected]

[email protected]

I totally forgot last year I inquired about a red body she had. Check out this response from her. Notice the way she ask me to pay!!

 

[bobcochran]

Sorry I'm so late to the party.
Brian sent me the pictures of the chameleons he received from Kelly and asked me what I thought. I also saw the original photos posted by Kelly in the Fauna Classifieds. Firstly, the male he received and the male posted for sale are indeed the same animal, however the condition and color of the received male was vastly different-obviously had been neglected for a considerable amount of time-more than the 2 week holding time Kelly was complaining about!
And yes, it is a cross of locales, not an Ambilobe as stated in the post. Secondly, the 2 females she sent were so thin, deformed, and with obvious eye problems I would be embarrassed to have them anywhere other than as a rescue project in ICU isolation.
Two things really bother me with this situation: After she sold the animals they were no longer hers, so what, she no longer cares about them? Is this how a person who cares about her reputation and the animals in her care shows it? Is this how you would treat animals that were not yours for another person? And, blatantly lying about the genetic make up of animals that were obviously for a breeding project.
I'm thinking at this point, Kelly is no longer interested in chameleons or her reputation. I would be very surprised if anybody in the reptile community hears from her again.

 

[Carlton]

Where did she steal credit from him? From the picture (screen shot) above all I see is that Craig Wyatt has mutual friends with Kelly Smith. One of which is Chris Anderson. So can you point out where she is stealing "Credit" from Chris Anderson?

I appreciate your comment and stand corrected...what I intended to object to was an attempt to raise her credibility by stating a connection to Chris Anderson. I don't use Farcebook so am not familiar with the ins and outs of "friends".

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Thank you for adding your account to help self-identify parties consulted, Bob.

 

[markpulawski]

I know the OP had an optimisitc approach to get his money back by returning the animals, I guess we can only assume it was a death sentence to send them back. Perhaps local animal control should be notified of her mistreatment of animals.....no difference between that chameleon in the photo and a super skinny horse in a field, neglect should be reported.

 

[JButera]

Unless you did already, imo it's time to get law enforcement involved. Attempt to contact her one more time; letting her know she's has one hour to refund the money or you'll be filing a police report. This is out of Paypal's hands and I doubt she's planning on ever paying you back.

 

[Robert Walker]

She asked me to do a favor for her and send it as "Family and Friends" versus the usual "Pay for Goods and Services" so that she wouldn't have to pay the Paypal service fee.

that Paypal was NOT cheated. Paypal offers a buyer protection service and this service has a fee attached.

In summary: Selecting a service that doesn't protect you doesn't make you a liar or a cheat it makes you screwed if anything goes wrong with the transaction.

I was highly offended by comments made questioning my integrity and character.

Paypal makes a living by the fees. Avoiding those fees not only leaves one without protection, it uses Paypal's service without compensating them, especially when one lies about 'friend or family' when it is actually a business transaction.

1. Thanks Brian for posting and warning others about Kelly. I don't think a single person has an objection to this, and many are grateful. So hats off to you.
2. The BOI is full of claims of business loss, cheating, fraud, etc. Everyone is up in arms when it comes to their personal "loss", but when it comes to lying to a bigger company (Paypal), well that is just fine and dandy. Why the double standard??
3. When an animal is paid for via Paypal, are you sending money to your "buddy" just because you love them? OR are you sending money for a "good" (snake/lizard)? When you claim "friend" and it is actually "a good"... well ask any 3 year kid what that is called. This isn't rocket science. One is a lie, and the other is not, period. People are welcome to come here and pour all the honey and sugar they want on this fact, but underneath it all you can't cover it up.
4. Per his own words Brian knew he was helping Kelly avoid fees (see above).
5. Some continue to try to muddy the waters by associating "buyer protection" with "honesty". These are two completely different issues.
6. Don't like Paypal? pssst...here is secret...don't use their service then. Afraid you as a seller won't be protected if you don't get them to send via "friends"....pssst...don't use Paypal then.

So in summary: Was a "good" paid for in this transaction??
If you can't figure it out... go find that 3yr old kid I referenced earlier.
I said don't take, this too "harshly", appearantly that didn't work.

I personally have done my part when it comes to Kelly. I contacted her 4 times using various methods, she is clearly hiding. I could information dump her life history here if I thought it would help, but I don't right now.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Yes, the claim that PayPal was not cheated when the company was used for a funding transfer (their primary bread and butter service) is not accurate. They performed the primary service. They did not receive the fee for the service. The "friends and family" option is an incentive for you to use their main services and is secondary. The fees one pays are not primarily for the protective benefit.

That said, I think the PayPal matter has been well covered by several. I am not going to really go at Brian for this. He ultimately paid the price for his error and knows it well by now. It appears he was deeply wronged by the seller according to the information presented thus far and taken advantage of, so I do sympathize there. I am confident that, going forward, Brian will give PayPal their due and be much, much more cautious about how he proceeds in some deals with some people.

 

[CwnAnnwn]

Paypal makes a living by the fees. Avoiding those fees not only leaves one without protection, it uses Paypal's service without compensating them, especially when one lies about 'friend or family' when it is actually a business transaction.

Perhaps we need to get Paypal's take on this difference of opinion.

To make this clear, when you send money friends and family to buy an item, you are miss using a service offered by Paypal. While they allow you to get around fees doing so, they often have to pay fees by your bank to offer this service.

For example. Bank of America charges 3 dollars to transfer money from your account to paypal. Paypal sucks up that charges as a service to you.

Every time you use pay pal friends and family to buy an item, you are ripping off pay pal.

It is also 100% illegal. It is called thief of services.

Theft of services is the legal term for a crime which is committed when a person obtains valuable services — as opposed to goods — by deception, force, threat or other unlawful means, i.e., without lawfully compensating the provider for these services.

You are being deceptive by telling pay pal that you are not buying anything just sending money to friend or family member.

So yes. You are ripping off paypal, breaking the law, and ruining the service for the rest of us.

Paypal has to charge fees to survive. They can only pay employees and keep the lights on if they charge fees. They allow you to send money from friends and family out of the kindness of their hearts. To use it to buy things is immoral and illegal.

Now about the chameleons. Wow, I really don't have words for that. I am sorry that this happened and the person that would let them get that bad needs to be... well pity.


Thank you for bring this to us. We now know who to avoid like the plague.

 

[Pasodama]

I would have liked to see texts, pics, etc.
However, I will say the following if all occurred as stated.
Says a lot, too, that Kelly has not commented in this thread.

Brian, I am sure you have learned your lesson about paying as "friends & family" via PayPal.

As for Kelly, she should be ashamed of herself for letting the chams come to such poor condition, allegedly lying about their locality vs. cross, and for selling/shipping chams in such poor condition. That, in itself, would justify some sort of refund/compensation for you.

Now, she has the chams back and will not refund your money/payment. If she does not return your money, or has no intentions of doing so, that makes her a thief as well.

Thanks for sharing your experience in order to warn others.

....

 

[Beyond GenetiX]

I would have liked to see texts, pics, etc.

I too, would like to see a of the evidence.