Bad Guy Metal Monkey Exotics

[m00kfu]

I will defend no one here. But I will say this. I don't give a rat's ass who your "supplier" is. If they fail to deliver, get your lazy ass to a pet shop and buy food for your snakes!

That's something that we disagree on. I and many other keepers believe that offering food weekly to a ball python that is off feed can condition them to refuse. While I wouldn't normally wait 2 months between offering, it's not much to a well fed ball python. It's roughly a difference of 150 grams from the last time she ate until now.

 

[Chris Kennard]

That's something that we disagree on. I and many other keepers believe that offering food weekly to a ball python that is off feed can condition them to refuse. While I wouldn't normally wait 2 months between offering, it's not much to a well fed ball python. It's roughly a difference of 150 grams from the last time she ate until now.

I am sorry if I misconstrued your exact statement..."the past couple of months would be me not having any rats small enough to feed her". Seriously? Dude?

 

[Pasodama]

Even with the OP's initial post, and showing of partial emails, I came to the conclusion (semi-assumption) that the snake must have been off feed for, at least, the first few months.
After seeing the entire thread, of communications, I was certain that what I had concluded (semi-assumed) was, in fact, factual.
For the OP to have all emails, I cannot believe that it was not understood or that the gist, of it, was not noticed.

I, personally, would not have waited two months to find/offer feed. Even for a snake that has been off feed and even if I had to go to a pet store for a feeder rodent.
However, although there may be a small "ding", for this seller, I am not going to condemn him for not having done so.
Especially considering the snake was off feed and, in the snake realm, 2 months is not an extraordinary time to go without eating ... that is *IF* she would have resumed eating after the first 3 months that she had been refusing.
After all, we don't know when the snake would have resumed eating. It just happened to be that the seller did not have an appropriate size rodent, to offer, in the last two months following the fast that had, up to then, been three months.

....

 

[Chris Kennard]

What is the appropriate sized rodent? If I have a snake that eats rats, yet can't find rats, I'll feed it a bunch of mice before I let it go hungry. But that's just me.

 

[Pasodama]

What is appropriate size? Well, he said he didn't have anything small enough.
For example (not same exact scenario but a fair enough example nonetheless): If I have, let's say, a cornsnake hatchling, and all I have are adult rodents, I couldn't very well expect that hatchling to eat an adult mouse or an adult rat. An appropriate size rodent, for that hatchling, would be a mouse pink or peach fuzzy ... not an adult.

That said, Chris, I do understand your position. I would be the same way, as you, and would go out of my way to find something that the snake could eat.

....

 

[Fangthane]

However, although there may be a small "ding", for this seller, I am not going to condemn him for not having done so.

His lame rationalization is probably as much of a put-off as the perceived indifference that led the snake to being that long off feed. Losing body weight is the point at which one really should start being concerned about getting an animal fed. While it doesn't *yet* look like an unhealthy BP, it could be argued that it's started slithering down that road. Instead of taking a drive and shelling out $10 for some overpriced pet shop feeders, he decided to just sell the snake without putting forth any effort to even see if it will choose to feed on its own yet - almost like he'd actively wanted to keep that plausible deniability in place. I just can't help reading into that. In my eyes, no winner in this thread.

 

[Chris Kennard]

What is appropriate size? Well, he said he didn't have anything small enough.
For example (not same exact scenario but a fair enough example nonetheless): If I have, let's say, a cornsnake hatchling, and all I have are adult rodents, I couldn't very well expect that hatchling to eat an adult mouse or an adult rat. An appropriate size rodent, for that hatchling, would be a mouse pink or peach fuzzy ... not an adult.

That said, Chris, I do understand your position. I would be the same way, as you, and would go out of my way to find something that the snake could eat.

....

The initial post here mentioned "rats". The accused admitted to not having "RATS" small enough to feed. Do you think that snake should be upgraded to squirrels? Then maybe cats...dogs...? Or do you just think I'm an idiot?

 

[Pasodama]

Don't know what the seller did, as far as attempts to feed during the snake's fast, and I do not know what his true intentions were re. sale, etc., but I understand what you are saying Dan. You make a point and that is a perception that can be had.

Will add that two months may not be too long, for a snake to not eat, but, yes, it is a rather long time (too long) to not attempt to get something that the snake could eat.

....

 

[Pasodama]

The initial post here mentioned "rats". The accused admitted to not having "RATS" small enough to feed. Do you think that snake should be upgraded to squirrels? Then maybe cats...dogs...? Or do you just think I'm an idiot?

Really Chris? Why are you being this way? You don't need to become snarky with me.
You asked about "appropriate size".
I would have to go back, to check, but, if he said rats, then I agree with you in that he could feed a mouse (or mice)... if he had them.
However, if he would bother to go to a pet shop or elsewhere, not only could he potentially get mice, he could potentially get an appropriate sized rat.

....

 

[Pasodama]

BTW Chris, I don't understand what you mean by the following:

"Do you think that snake should be upgraded to squirrels? Then maybe cats...dogs..."

Especially since I did not mention anything about going bigger.

....

 

[Pasodama]

However, if he would bother to go to a pet shop or elsewhere, not only could he potentially get mice, he could potentially get an appropriate sized rat.

Whups, just reread one of your posts.
I agree, if he could not find a rat, then, yes, get mice (or something else), to feed.

....

 

[Helenthereef]

Can a ball python person comment on the acceptability (or otherwise) of a snake losing 10% of its body weight?

My Pacific boas go off feed for up to 3 months at a time in cold weather, and I don't worry about that at all, but I weigh them regularly, and if they started to lose weight I would definitely be seeking appropriate food to get them started again.

So is it normal to allow significant weight loss in a BP?

 

[Black Adder]

Can a ball python person comment on the acceptability (or otherwise) of a snake losing 10% of its body weight?

My Pacific boas go off feed for up to 3 months at a time in cold weather, and I don't worry about that at all, but I weigh them regularly, and if they started to lose weight I would definitely be seeking appropriate food to get them started again.

So is it normal to allow significant weight loss in a BP?

IMHO NO snake should really be allowed to lose 10% of its weight, thats a dangerous potential downhill slippery slope.
Now some snakes are more prone to going "off feed" than others and bp,s can and will do this sometimes for no good reason you can see at all.
At 2 months I would not be over worried, heck I had a black head python go without for 6 months, but yes what does concern me is the fact of not having the right size feeders to even TRY at a later stage.
Thats just pure laziness, agree 200% with Chris that he should have made a trip to buy a few smaller rodents even if he considered them over priced.
5 months is a long time and tbh there is no way I would even consider selling a snake that had not eaten in such a length of time and would only have sold the animal once it was eating regular meals again AND had regained the lost weight and then some.
Do I think the op jumped the gun on this bad guy boi, probably.
Do I think the accused acted not in the best interest of this snake, definitely.

 

[Lucille]

That's something that we disagree on. I and many other keepers believe that offering food weekly to a ball python that is off feed can condition them to refuse. While I wouldn't normally wait 2 months between offering, it's not much to a well fed ball python. It's roughly a difference of 150 grams from the last time she ate until now.

No one has jumped in to agree with this practice of not offering so I'm thinking that the seller should have gone ahead and bought a pet store rat or mouse. However, the OP has falsely stated that there were no rats available for 5 months, and has used the issue to try to obtain the animal at a discount. I think both parties could have done better.

 

[Mistyck]

The initial post here mentioned "rats". The accused admitted to not having "RATS" small enough to feed. Do you think that snake should be upgraded to squirrels? Then maybe cats...dogs...? Or do you just think I'm an idiot?

You're getting awful snarky to everyone these days, even if they were trying to answer your questions. It seems like if you don't like their answer or the way they answered it, you just spout off at the mouth...

Your answers are always smart, and most of the time thought out. But lately it's not always the case. I actually enjoy reading what you have to say in threads because you do seem smart about things. But your snarkiness is almost overshadowing what you're trying to deliver.

Really Chris? Why are you being this way? You don't need to become snarky with me.
You asked about "appropriate size".
I would have to go back, to check, but, if he said rats, then I agree with you in that he could feed a mouse (or mice)... if he had them.
However, if he would bother to go to a pet shop or elsewhere, not only could he potentially get mice, he could potentially get an appropriate sized rat.

....

I agree with you that he should have gone and gotten feed that his animal could eat. That's a given. Though I do know several of my animals before have chosen to go off of food, I still gave it to them.

Can a ball python person comment on the acceptability (or otherwise) of a snake losing 10% of its body weight?

My Pacific boas go off feed for up to 3 months at a time in cold weather, and I don't worry about that at all, but I weigh them regularly, and if they started to lose weight I would definitely be seeking appropriate food to get them started again.

So is it normal to allow significant weight loss in a BP?

My dragon (yes I know it's a different species) will go into a mode in the winter where he refuses to eat, and mainly sleeps. I still put some food in his bowl, but I don't put the normal amount unless I see that he comes and wants more. He does wind up loosing some of his body weight, but in the spring, when he wakes up and becomes active again he eats like there is no tomorrow and puts it all back on (along with more.)

I'm to blame here also for not appropriately reading that he purposely didn't feed the animal in that time frame, as I thought the animal just went off food. That's on me for not reading it appropriately (I think I need to not read things when I'm trying to get work done as well.) With that I will say that I'm sorry for not reading and understanding it appropriately, and the breeder is in the wrong for not going to get feed while his colony was getting back up to par. No matter if the animal is off food on their own accord or not, food should be offered. Though that still doesn't change my mind that the OP was exaggerating time frames in order to get a discount/better deal.

 

[Skinker]

Can a ball python person comment on the acceptability (or otherwise) of a snake losing 10% of its body weight?

My Pacific boas go off feed for up to 3 months at a time in cold weather, and I don't worry about that at all, but I weigh them regularly, and if they started to lose weight I would definitely be seeking appropriate food to get them started again.

So is it normal to allow significant weight loss in a BP?

Most folks overfeed the hell out of these critters so 20% on a fasting juvenile doesn't necessarily reveal anything about health. If the pre fast weighing was after a larger meal(or consecutive meals without a bowel), that 20% would mostly drop from the next poo or two. The snake pictured has excellent body shape - far better than many of the slugs out there. If Chris were dealing with colubrids then you might have had a "bad guy" worthy situation after several summer months of not feeding due to personal circumstances. Sure, he could have probably tried harder to find some live feeders but I'd be more inclined to shake my finger and tsk in his general direction if the snake in question didn't look in the peak of health.

 

[Aeonic]

Look at the snake in question. Looks perfect, ideal shape and weight. Could he have went out and got a live feeder or 2, sure he could have. He also mentioned having his own rat colony. So he lost his supplier decided to grow his own colony, 2 or 3 weeks later realizes not quite ready, maybe next week and so.... Who knows the exact circumstances? Hell a couple months could mean 6 weeks even, I dunno. All I know is that snake looks perfect! If this thing was starving or even showing signs I'm sure he'd have found a damn feeder..... He chose convenience on a perfectly healthy looking snake.

 

[Guy Castro]

I have animals that have been off feed a lot longer than that,it's a ball thing. Had a male go off at the start of breeding season,the girl he locked went on to produce. He stayed off feed until the next breeding season,and the girl he locked with,produced. Then he started eating. Just isn't a big deal for me.

 

[Chris Kennard]

Really Chris? Why are you being this way? You don't need to become snarky with me.
You asked about "appropriate size".
I would have to go back, to check, but, if he said rats, then I agree with you in that he could feed a mouse (or mice)... if he had them.
However, if he would bother to go to a pet shop or elsewhere, not only could he potentially get mice, he could potentially get an appropriate sized rat.

....

I was clearly talking about a snake big enough to eat rats, in which case he could easily find something SMALLER if the appropriate size was not available. My point was cut and dry. You downplayed that by referencing a hatchling, which obviously has no choice but to eat what it can handle. I get that and so does everyone in this community. While not intentional I am sure, your post came off a bit condescending. If you found my response abrasive, I don't deny that it was a bit. That being said, you have my sincerest apology. I respect you and your contributions here. I am sorry if I offended you...sincerely.

 

[Chris Kennard]

You're getting awful snarky to everyone these days, even if they were trying to answer your questions. It seems like if you don't like their answer or the way they answered it, you just spout off at the mouth...

Your answers are always smart, and most of the time thought out. But lately it's not always the case. I actually enjoy reading what you have to say in threads because you do seem smart about things. But your snarkiness is almost overshadowing what you're trying to deliver.



I agree with you that he should have gone and gotten feed that his animal could eat. That's a given. Though I do know several of my animals before have chosen to go off of food, I still gave it to them.



My dragon (yes I know it's a different species) will go into a mode in the winter where he refuses to eat, and mainly sleeps. I still put some food in his bowl, but I don't put the normal amount unless I see that he comes and wants more. He does wind up loosing some of his body weight, but in the spring, when he wakes up and becomes active again he eats like there is no tomorrow and puts it all back on (along with more.)

I'm to blame here also for not appropriately reading that he purposely didn't feed the animal in that time frame, as I thought the animal just went off food. That's on me for not reading it appropriately (I think I need to not read things when I'm trying to get work done as well.) With that I will say that I'm sorry for not reading and understanding it appropriately, and the breeder is in the wrong for not going to get feed while his colony was getting back up to par. No matter if the animal is off food on their own accord or not, food should be offered. Though that still doesn't change my mind that the OP was exaggerating time frames in order to get a discount/better deal.

Girls love the word "snarky". Overshadowing? Pulease. I mentioned something no one else did. I threw my two cents in, as did you. Does my "snarkiness" invalidate my ppint because you guys don't like my attitude?