Bad Guy Steve Lloyd [Vfxsteve1815]

[Acrimonious]

I've put this off because I am an optimistic person who was trying to work things out privately as a bad BOI in this business can be detrimental and long lasting. That said I feel I have no choice.

I bought a pair of Womas off of Steven Lloyd [Vfxsteve1815] on Oct 14th 2016 and he shipped them to be here OCT 19th 2016. Prior to my purchase I did mention to Steve that the female in particular looks a bit haggard and I was concerned about her health. Steve assured me that she was 'just in shed.' I was excited to obtain these animals and have been very fortunate through this website not to get screwed, so I played along. Additionally, when I was sent the invoice Steve charged ME the PayPal fee. I know this isn't right, but again I was excited and thought the price even with the fee was fair -- so I paid it.

Steven informed me that I'd be getting a tracking number to track my animals shipment. I replied back to Steve explaining that I had-not received the number to which his reply was that, 'I should check my junk folder.' I'd like to think a good seller would have made it high priority to ensure me, the buyer, who has just in good faith sent $386 dollars to someone I've only spoken a few hundred words to in my life had the information I needed to track my product. Steve didn't get back to me as quick as I'd like so I called Reptile Express myself and had to bend over backwards to get them to fork over the tracking number. I then contacted Steve back to let him know I did his job -- he replied back to that message in 6 minutes. This leads me to believe he had no plans of getting me that number.

The animals arrive on time as expected and the female still looks under-weight, with a stuck shed, retained eye-cap, not overly alert, little tongue flicking, but I chalk this up to the long trip and that she is probably cold. I figure I'll handle this myself since trying to talk to Steve is like pulling teeth. I did however send him an email to let him know I received the animals and thanked him for them. I figured I'd get an email back acknowledging the arrival, but I guess he thought I got the animals, they aren't dead, and he has the cash -- so who cares.

I contacted Steve 9 days after I got the animals to explain that the female [and only her at the time] had visible mites. The male has since also proven to have mites. I explain to Steve that I have spoken with other buyers who state they also have animals that are under-weight, and infested with mites. Steve admits that, and I quote:

'Yes I had one Woma go out that had a few mites on it, (still unclear where they came from) none of my animals have any mites and have not had any. If you had concerns you should have brought them to my attention when they were received.'

He advises me not to use any harsh chemicals to alleviate the problem, and suggests soaking them in warm water with a little olive oil and that he'd follow up with me on a product he has used in the past that is 'natural.' That is roughly 3 days ago and he has yet to follow up. Again, as a seller I'd think he'd be trying to lend some credibility to his product by following through on his commitment. I have only kept 1 snake for a couple of years now. I used to keep around 12, but sold down my collection. The JCP I've kept these years didn't have mites prior to the Woma pair arriving and still does not as I did quarantine. Another buyer I spoke with states that Steve said this to him prior to shipping out his animal"

Quote: '"Shipment went out today. Let me know when you get him tomorrow. Also just as a precaution, I would not let him in contact with any other reptiles for a week or so. I have had issues before with reptile shipments getting mites in transit if there are other reptiles in the shipment."

Something clearly doesn't add up. I won't call anyones name out that I've spoken to on the side, but they have assured me they would reply to this BOI to lend a little more credibility to it. I will be emailing them a link to this post in hopes they keep their word. I have faith that they will.

I can no longer get the female to eat, she looks like shit, and I'm not sure how to proceed. I am a bit apprehensive on using PAM on this animal because of her poor health state. I am on the fence about trying to retract payment VIA PayPal, but I don't want to ruin what little reputation I have on this forum. I'm not a breeder, I'm a hobbyist. I'm looking for some direction from the community. I need to control the mite problem -- obviously. If Steve was local I'd take both animals back and demand a refund.

*Besides the obvious mites on the male everything seems alright. He is alert, active, eats, tongue flicking, displays curiosity, etc. The female does none of the former.

All throughout my contact with Steve I have apologized for being a difficult buyer, stayed optimistic, given him blind faith, explained I am not mad, but in reality I am furious. I know arguing through email will accomplish nothing so I've tried to maintain my composure.

I'm afraid the female with or without treatment will not make it another week. I'd expect Steve to refund me for her, or meet me in the middle on a partial refund? If I cannot nurse this animal back to health -- how am I to proceed? Is a PayPal retraction in order? A partial retraction if this animal dies? Should I send back the male if I do contest the payment and win?

I'm really upset, and to some people $400 may not be a lot of money, but to me it is. I work hard for my money like everyone else and I don't want to throw it away. Below I have provided our entire email correspondence.

TL;DR Bought 1.1 Womas off Steve Lloyd [Vfxsteve1815] Both animals have mites and the female in-particular seems to have waning health and will not eat. I'm fairly certain that Steve knew the quality of the product he was selling me and I need assistance on how to proceed.

Thank you to anyone who took the time to read this, and offer assistance on how I should proceed.

 

[Acrimonious]

The following is the rest of our conversation VIA E-mail:

 

[Acrimonious]

The following is the animal in question, [AA battery for scale] and a copy of my invoice. I have blanked out my address:

 

[bcr229]

From post #2 Stephen's last email - you can not break the mite life cycle in five days. Treatment must continue for 30 days after you stop finding mites on your snake since an egg can take that long to hatch out and cause a re-infestation.

http://denardo.lab.asu.edu/publications/ARAVsnakemites.pdf

Kyle has the female woma been to a vet yet?

 

[Donald C]

Kyle, I'm sorry that you are having to deal with something like this.

I'd recommend finding a vet for this poor girl. If anything, that can help narrow down what else may be wrong with her. Getting a trained vet on the case may be the difference between her making it or not.

 

[Mike Schultz]

I am not taking sides here, but as a seller I will mention that it is imperative to alert the shipper of problems immediately upon arrival. That way if the issue does continue/get worse, you have tangible evidence proving it showed up that way and wasn't a result of your own care.

 

[Robert Walker]

I have not read the entire thread yet, but if you would have told me the snake in this picture was already dead when the picture was taken, I would have believed you.

 

[DavidBeard]

If the female looked "haggard" BEFORE you bought them......then why are you surprised shes in bad shape? Look for quality animals elsewhere instead of trying to save a buck buying from someone cheaper. You get what you pay for.

 

[Lucille]

I am not taking sides here, but as a seller I will mention that it is imperative to alert the shipper of problems immediately upon arrival. That way if the issue does continue/get worse, you have tangible evidence proving it showed up that way and wasn't a result of your own care.

I agree with this (and I am not taking sides either). Kyle, the seller got a thank you email from you the day you received her on the 19th, no mention of any issues, and then nothing until the 28th.
The picture with the battery, what day was that taken?

 

[Lucille]

The seller,
Vfxsteve1815 , has ads for these womas from 7/19-10/12 you can see them by looking up his account and looking at his past posts. What do you think of the rest of the snakes pictured that he was selling, are they haggard or healthy, in your opinion?

 

[DavidBeard]

The seller,
Vfxsteve1815 , has ads for these womas from 7/19-10/12 you can see them by looking up his account and looking at his past posts. What do you think of the rest of the snakes pictured that he was selling, are they haggard or healthy, in your opinion?

IMO they look a tad thin, but "haggard" is a grossly exaggerative statement.

Regardless, the seller has admitted to sending animals out with mites and is trying to blame them on the snakes somehow getting mites from other reptiles being shipped at the same time as them if I read that correctly? Stay far, far away.

 

[Black Adder]

From the pix on ad dated 8/9 they look ok, not too lean but not at deaths door for sure. However 8/9 to 10/19 is a long time, do we have any pix from the op that made him say the female looked "haggard"?
tbh why on earth anybody would buy anything that even by their own admittance looked "haggard" is beyond me but still, the seller has some responsibilty here for sure.

 

[Lucille]

IMO they look a tad thin, but "haggard" is a grossly exaggerative statement.

Regardless, the seller has admitted to sending animals out with mites and is trying to blame them on the snakes somehow getting mites from other reptiles being shipped at the same time as them if I read that correctly? Stay far, far away.

Quote: '"Shipment went out today. Let me know when you get him tomorrow. Also just as a precaution, I would not let him in contact with any other reptiles for a week or so. I have had issues before with reptile shipments getting mites in transit if there are other reptiles in the shipment."


I agree David, that's sort of a strange thing to say unless the seller suspected his animals might have mites, in my opinion. And one would think that a buyer would quarantine no matter what and would not need to be admonished to watch out for traveling mites.

 

[Acrimonious]

From post #2 Stephen's last email - you can not break the mite life cycle in five days. Treatment must continue for 30 days after you stop finding mites on your snake since an egg can take that long to hatch out and cause a re-infestation.

http://denardo.lab.asu.edu/publications/ARAVsnakemites.pdf

Kyle has the female woma been to a vet yet?

Kyle, I'm sorry that you are having to deal with something like this.

I'd recommend finding a vet for this poor girl. If anything, that can help narrow down what else may be wrong with her. Getting a trained vet on the case may be the difference between her making it or not.

Thanks for everyones reply. This animal has not been to the vet, but this unfortunately has been a nearly impossible option for me because of the long hours that I work. However I don't suppose it matters much any longer as I checked on her upon comping home tonight, a few minutes ago, she damn near dead now. I'm more than sure she will be dead by morning. She did took quite some time to respond to being touched.

I am not taking sides here, but as a seller I will mention that it is imperative to alert the shipper of problems immediately upon arrival. That way if the issue does continue/get worse, you have tangible evidence proving it showed up that way and wasn't a result of your own care.

The problem was not present upon arrival. The mites were not engorged and if I'm the only one who thinks seeing a black speck on a dark animal is is difficult then I guess I'll go see my optometrist. If he sold a quality product this would be irrelevant. I feel cheated.

I have not read the entire thread yet, but if you would have told me the snake in this picture was already dead when the picture was taken, I would have believed you.

Both pictures were taken 5 minutes prior to my post.

If the female looked "haggard" BEFORE you bought them......then why are you surprised shes in bad shape? Look for quality animals elsewhere instead of trying to save a buck buying from someone cheaper. You get what you pay for.

The seller assured me that this was just a shed cycle. I wasn't trying to save a buck. I was trying to get a pair of Womas. It's disappointing to see the community take shots at a buyer rather than rally around them. This hobby by far, can be one of the most unfriendly ones to be a part of.

I agree with this (and I am not taking sides either). Kyle, the seller got a thank you email from you the day you received her on the 19th, no mention of any issues, and then nothing until the 28th.
The picture with the battery, what day was that taken?

5 Minutes prior to my post.

--------------------------------

*I am going to challenge this payment through PayPal and USAA. I don't know what else to do.

 

[Lucille]

Thanks for everyones reply. This animal has not been to the vet, but this unfortunately has been a nearly impossible option for me because of the long hours that I work.

If you have a living critter in your care, you need to make time to take it to the vet if the situation warrants it.

It's disappointing to see the community take shots at a buyer rather than rally around them. This hobby by far, can be one of the most unfriendly ones to be a part of.

I think most people here just want to get at the truth.

You are trying to paint your seller as a bad guy, but if you have had the snakes for two weeks, and the picture of the snake was taken right before you posted, how can we, the readers, be certain it was not your husbandry problems that created the issue?
Certainly if you felt an animal was sub par prior to purchase and you bought it anyway, the first thing you should have done was bring it to a vet. Not only to legally establish its condition on arrival, but for its own sake, because it is a living critter and deserves good care.
If it was sent with mites that is on the seller.
But at this point I do not feel you have shown it was ill on arrival. If it was and you stood by and did nothing for two weeks and did not get it the care that might have saved it (if it dies), part of the fault is yours, I don't feel a full refund is warranted.

 

[Acrimonious]

The animal has died.

I've contacted Steve about this and he has stated, quote, 'I can offer you a possible replacement next season, I can offer you first pick.'

It's hard as a buyer to stand by a year on good faith that this will be honored, but I guess I have no choice. With this information being shared I'm not going to beat this issue in to the ground, and I'm sure not going to fight back and forth on a forum and feel belittled.

This is a niche community, we, like all business, have an obligation to fledgling, or even ignorant customers to provide a quality product that is 'as-advertised.' Sellers should want this hobby to expand even further than it has. They make more money, and we as a community gain more traction when fighting for our rights when we aren't such a minuscule amount of the population. Everyone benefits from practices like these.



I didn't post this BOI to speak poorly about anyone, and I didn't post it to be ridiculed by the community either. I just want to share my experience so that others can make an informed decision when deciding to make a purchase from the same person I did.

If you have a living critter in your care, you need to make time to take it to the vet if the situation warrants it.

I think most people here just want to get at the truth.

You are trying to paint your seller as a bad guy, but if you have had the snakes for two weeks, and the picture of the snake was taken right before you posted, how can we, the readers, be certain it was not your husbandry problems that created the issue?
Certainly if you felt an animal was sub par prior to purchase and you bought it anyway, the first thing you should have done was bring it to a vet. Not only to legally establish its condition on arrival, but for its own sake, because it is a living critter and deserves good care.
If it was sent with mites that is on the seller.

But at this point I do not feel you have shown it was ill on arrival. If it was and you stood by and did nothing for two weeks and did not get it the care that might have saved it (if it dies), part of the fault is yours, I don't feel a full refund is warranted

I've added a picture of the animal that Steve sent to me prior to shipping. If anyone can look at these pictures and immediate discern that this is more than 'in shed.' Then congrats, because I could not. As they say good judgement comes from bad experience, and experience often comes from bad judgement. So if anyone feels omnipotent then go ahead and throw the stones. Otherwise thanks to anyone who has the ability to empathize. Furthermore, if these pictures galvanize you then that should also be indicative that you think I've gotten the short end of the stick.

I am not trying to paint a picture that the seller is a bad person, or had malicious intentions. I'm trying to share an experience with a community that can rarely get along with itself let alone rally against state and local governments as they strip our rights. I'm an optimistic person, and I wish no ill will upon anyone. I eschew from negativity and will not tell anyone what decision to make when deciding to purchase an animal from Steve. You can make your own decision based on the information I am providing. Steve stated this animal was 'just in shed' but hindsight seems to contradict that. As the buyer, if the I am told everything is alright then I expect it to be. Ignorant, stupid, unprepared, whatever is still no excuse for false advertisement. If he honestly thought the animal was healthy then fair enough, and as I stated before he assures me he will replace this animal next season. This thread will be 6ft deep by then.

Obviously we all won't agree, but I think what's paramount is that if the animal was sold in bad health, and the seller was aware then that is unacceptable. Regardless, to prove whether he knew or not cannot be done. I'd like to think that based on his willingness to replace the animal next season that he deserves benefit of the doubt. In my career we sell technology and a large part of our business is selling to ignorant or people who are just acquiring our product for the first time. While ignorance is never an excuse we have an obligation as credible business to disclose the facts of the products, it's capabilities, limitations, and its current 'health.' If the product is going to require 'repair' immediately upon acquisition then that should be made clear to the buyer. If the seller isn't aware of this then it is their obligation to make things right for the credibility of their business. Running a business is expensive -- just like owning an animal. I wasn't trying to save money, and I'm not trying to ruin anyones reputation. This was my experience. There was no BOI for me to look at prior to my purchase. Now there is one for future buyers. Assuming Steve keeps on his word, and I optimistically think he will -- I will exhume this thread at that time.

 

[Black Adder]

tbh Kyle looking at the pix you posted that the seller shared with you PRIOR to your buying I would have walked away quitely.
These animals normally shed well and completely IF proper husbandary has been established.
It looks like humidity was incorrect(obvious i know) but moreover it looks like a bag of bones already even taking into account the shed cycle.
I would not have bought upon seeing those pix BUT there is no way on this planet the seller should have sold or shipped that animal to you in that condition.
I think to say it was maintenance fed is an understatement, OR possibly it had some other underlying medical issue?
I believe you should not have bought but as you did you probably should have made the seller aware of her condition right away.
HOWEVER IMHO THIS DOES NOT EXCUSE THE SELLER FOR THE DISGRACEFULL CONDITION OF THE ANIMAL HE SOLD AND SHIPPED TO YOU!
No self respecting honest breeder or even flipper should have done that.
I truly do feel sorry for your loss and the way you have been let down badly by the seller who is definitely on my "never deal with" list!
I feel you have a good case to request a refund for the female that died.
On another note how is the male half of the pair doing?

 

[Lucille]

Thank you for posting the prior picture, it does serve to show that the critter was in poor shape when you received it. I still wish it had gone to a vet.
Hopefully the others sold from the advertised bunch fared better.

 

[JButera]

Sorry to hear about the snake, and after seeing those latest pics it's hard not to think this was more of a rescue than a purchase. I'm surprised it didn't die in transit. Anyway, I hope the seller makes good with that replacement offer, if not, this thread will still be here.

 

[Acrimonious]

On another note how is the male half of the pair doing?

He is very alert, responds to any movement near his enclosure. Taken food without hesitation but also has mites. I feel very confident that once I am able to rid him of the mites he will have a long and comfortable life in my care.


I've asked Steve to refund my purchase just for the female alone, but he says he can't. However, we all know he can it is his own volition that he chooses not to. If I'm being completely transparent I don't have a lot of faith that he will be around a year from now. Does anyone think I am out of line to re-request a refund from him and if he refuses to dispute it with PayPal and my credit card company?

I'd be much more comfortable with my money back than I would be waiting a year to see if he really replaces this animal. I haven't actually disputed the payment as I stated in a previous purchase. I am afraid to ruin my name with the community since second chances are not granted very easily around here. [and rightfully so] I'd like to think if he won't refund it and PayPal and USAA don't take my side that the this BOI will serve as punishment enough to cost him more than the money it would take to refund me. Any further advise on the financial side would be greatly appreciated.


Here is a picture of the male since interest has been shown.