Bad Guy Steve Lloyd [Vfxsteve1815]

[Black Adder]

good to hear and see at least the male is fine, looks healthy if a little thin but most womas will eat happily until they explode...lol, my pair do!
i would not wait a year either, i feel you have a very good case to request a refund for the female right now.
Not sure how the ground would lay with paypal as do not think they would look at a partial refund and doubt they would give a full refund but if you have no luck with the seller you can always try

 

[dallashawks1]

I have not had time until now to post here but here it goes. I also purchased an animal from Steve and the "before" shipping photo posted above by Acrimonious is representative of what the animal (a male) looked like when it arrived. My 16YO daughter was livid concerning the condition of the animal. I do not have photos but I did reply and ask him if the animal had eaten yet.View attachment 832454

I assumed from the condition of the snake that it was a hatchling with a stuck first shed. I was surprised to learn the clutch had hatched in June. I was so concerned about the weight that I did something I have never done before with a new arrival, which was to offer it a meal (a small pinky mouse) and it immediately ate. It still isn't perfect but it looks MUCH better than when it arrived. It has eaten approximately 8-10 rat pups/fuzzy mice since arriving. Here is a photo made today and yes, that is a dead mite on the left-hand side.
View attachment 832458

Acrimonious, who had contacted me once before inquiring about the health of my animal because his arrived in such poor condition, sent me an email on November 28 asking if I had found any mites on my animal because he had found them on his. Before replying to him I did a very thorough search of the python using a white paper towel and did in fact, find 3 visible. After soaking the animal in water for about two hours I came up with a bowl of water with LOTS of mites in the bottom.

I let Acrimonious know what I found and immediately began to clean and disinfect cages (I have multiple snakes). I have not after soaking other snakes found mites on any of them with the exception of the woma. I have to assume they are there though and will begin treating with PAM as soon as it arrives.

Saturday, October 29 I sent an email to Steve informing him that I had found mites (in addition to Acrimonious) on the snake and advised him to remove the ad from Fauna until he had treated the remaining womas and was certain they were mite free.

View attachment 832467

I did not ask Steve for a refund or compensation because the snake is currently eating, it's health seems to be improving, (it ate yesterday) and I am now going to have to treat the entire colony as a precaution anyway. What bothers me the most is that after being contacted by myself, Acrimonious, and the other person mentioned in the email by Steve to Acrimonious, the ad is still up as of November 1 after having been told 3 times that he has shipped snakes with mites. This does, in my book, warrant a bad guy post.



I have tried to provide all relevant information and if I missed anything let me know and I will try to accommodate you. I'm sure someone will take me up on this.
Dallas Hawks

 

[dallashawks1]

For some reason, the above attachments did not show up in the post even though they did in previews. Here they are again.

 

[dallashawks1]

I almost forgot this one. This was the last email I received before the animal arrived.



Dallas Hawks

 

[Black Adder]

i am confused as to what steve is trying to say there
is he saying that mites from other peoples reptile shipments that are in the same cargo area as his are going to jump ship from their box and dive into his box????????
that is a mind boggling thought
or am i missing something?
smells like prime horse manure to me.......

 

[Donald C]

It looks to me like Stephen's trying to preemptively assign blame for the mites on "other reptiles" that may or may not have existed alongside his shipment. He's trying to make it seem like the mites are not a result of poor husbandry on his part.

 

[bcr229]

i am confused as to what steve is trying to say there
is he saying that mites from other peoples reptile shipments that are in the same cargo area as his are going to jump ship from their box and dive into his box????????
that is a mind boggling thought
or am i missing something?
smells like prime horse manure to me.......

I could see how this is remotely possible in theory, as FedEx is likely grouping packages containing live animals onto one palette during transport, and shipping boxes are certainly not airtight so mites could travel between them during the several hour period they are in close proximity. I know when I've picked up my critters at the hub that all of the "live animal" boxes are set up on one cart behind the counter.

In practice, this seller has several recent purchasers reporting that they have received critters with mites, so the more likely conclusion is that the seller is the source.

If the OP had let the seller know about the problems with the snakes upon arrival, or if he had a vet report documenting the female's poor condition before she passed away, he would be in a better position to do a chargeback for her.

 

[Robert Walker]

The animal has died.

Sad to hear, but not at all unexpected based on your photos.

Does anyone think I am out of line to re-request a refund from him... ?

No, I think you should. Why should you have to a wait a year? I agree, there is a difference between I "can't refund" vs. "I don't want to refund". His ad says $200 female. Honestly, if folks don't have $200 in a business situation/environment, they shouldn't be in business. Send the buyer back his $200, apologize and move on.

Under no circumstances would I wait a year.
No guarantee of woma births next year...
No guarantee of a better quality animal being shipped next year...
0% interest free loan to him...
etc.

Refund. Part ways. Done.

 

[Robert Walker]

though and will begin treating with PAM as soon as it arrives.

I almost regret posting this as I don't want to derail this thread, but you don't have to wait for PAM to "arrive" in order to help your snakes from getting relief from mites "now". Everyone pretty much has access to Wal-mart. Here is product they sell. Spray it on the paper towel substrate, let it dry. Place the animal back in the cage. A couple days the mites will all be gone.

$8 gives your animal help/relief = now versus later

 

[dallashawks1]

I almost regret posting this as I don't want to derail this thread, but you don't have to wait for PAM to "arrive" in order to help your snakes from getting relief from mites "now". Everyone pretty much has access to Wal-mart. Here is product they sell. Spray it on the paper towel substrate, let it dry. Place the animal back in the cage. A couple days the mites will all be gone.

$8 gives your animal help/relief = now versus later

Actually, I did treat the animal within a couple of hours of finding out the mites were present with a temporary solution (I guess I should have been more thorough in my post), hence the dead mite lying in the cage in the previous photograph. The PAM order was for a more permanent solution. Is this the equivalent of PAM and have you used it with success? If so it would be good to know.

 

[dallashawks1]

It looks to me like Stephen's trying to preemptively assign blame for the mites on "other reptiles" that may or may not have existed alongside his shipment. He's trying to make it seem like the mites are not a result of poor husbandry on his part.

That was my thought exactly and a big red flag went up. But...the snake was already on its way. I was relieved to not find a sign of mites when it arrived. I suspect as previously stated that he was aware of and had treated the animals for mites but wasn't certain of success. Thus the warning. Still, the ad should have been pulled until he was aware that the infestation still existed.

 

[Robert Walker]

Is this the equivalent of PAM and have you used it with success? If so it would be good to know.

I don't know PAM vs. SprayAway, I just know that SprayAway works. From time to time I would buy out collections or get a bad order or live rodents in. This stuff always took care of it, no issues.

Okay. Back to he BOI. My fault, I apologize.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

To add to Robert's helpful post, there is an equivalent RID spray that is in some Walmart stores that might not carry SprayAway. The same active ingredient in the same concentration. If you cannot find the one, you can usually find the other, so you can hit up a 24hr place asap if your work schedule is challenging to get around.

My condolences on the loss of your female.

 

[DavidBeard]

Nobody is "taking shots" at you, we are simply using our brains when presented with a problem. If you had questions about the animals' condition before the purchase, why risk it? The only motivation would seem to be money since the seller was offering Womas considerably cheaper than most established/reputable breeders do. If you play with fire and get burned (and have prior knowledge of fire being harmful) then you cannot blame anyone else for your injuries. In this instance, you should've passed and looked elsewhere.

I am not in any way saying the seller is without recourse or responsibility, but as a buyer/caretaker of living animals you owe it to yourself and your existing wards to exercise caution when bringing in new animals.

This is a serious question and not meant to be condescending at all, but do you have any previous experience with Pythons or snakes in general? I only ask because the pictures obviously and quite glaringly present an animal with far more than just a "bad shed." Personally, ignorance is not an excuse in this day and age but I can see how you might not know better if these were your first snakes.

 

[DavidBeard]

I'd also like to add that your defensive attitude and already overtly victimized presentation of some of the questions presented here is unfortunately all too common amongst new members of the reptile community. They often display irrational responses to legitimate queries and further alienate themselves from those who they seek counsel from. Theres a reason most of us who have been around the block a few times can be a tad quick to judge or be skeptical, because we've given advice hundreds of times that was ignored by people with major disparities in experience only to see an animal suffer as a result.

 

[Robert Walker]

Perhaps for the benefit of readers, as a group we can point out some "signs" that we see in these pictures that something is not right. This may be of benefit to help others avoid a similar situation.

Here are a couple that stand out to me:

 

[DavidBeard]

The green urates are also concerning.

 

[Robert Walker]

The green urates are also concerning.

My apologies. We might have to chalk that one up to me switching between software programs and unintentionally screwing up the colors. You are correct though, green urates are concerning when present.

Here should be a true color copy of the pictures.
Looks like mites to me.

 

[Vfxsteve1815]

I feel its only fait to defend myself. I was contacted the day the animals arrived and was told they look good and thank you. I was then contacted almost 3 weeks later and was told that only the female had mites and what to do. I was contacted this past Friday and I emailed right back. Then I was contacted again on Monday and told that the problem had gotten worse, and he asked for a full refund. I told him that I would not offer a refund because it has been 3 weeks and I can not be held responsible for a animal 3 weeks out of my care. Maybe the husbandry on his end was not correct, maybe he didn't give the animal water, maybe he has not fed them. How am I suppose to know what happened to the animals once they leave my care. but I said let me think about it and I will come up with a solution. I emailed him back later Monday night and said I am willing to replace the animal but it would have to wait till next season because I do not have any left, but I would give him first choice next season. I also decided to offer him a partial refund even thought I didn't feel I had to since this was 3 weeks later. I retracted my offers today since this post went up and he blasted my personal info (but covered his up) I was hoping to be able to deal with this as adults but I guess he does not want to deal with it that way. If there is anyone else that has any problems with any animals past or future, contact the seller within 24 hours and give the them a heads up that there might be a issue.

 

[Acrimonious]

Once again I'd like to thank everyone for heir input thus far, it's been refreshing to have empathy from a community that I haven't always felt that from in the past, but always tried to extend to others with poor experience.

Theres a reason most of us who have been around the block a few times can be a tad quick to judge or be skeptical, because we've given advice hundreds of times that was ignored by people with major disparities in experience only to see an animal suffer as a result.

I completely understand this, and I'm sorry that those people have made you and others feel jaded or under-appreciated. I am overwhelmed by the response on this thread. In a world filled with people who look for the angle [not you] just people in general...Who lie, cheat, steal, whatever -- I try to be that person give gives the benefit of the doubt. I'm the person that will do you a favor you can never repay even though we don't know each other. Some people call this a sucker. I refer to it as being the change I want to see in the world. Lame -- right? To be fair, I have over-stepped this myself by being a bit defensive, but I was in ruin. I do my best, like everyone else not to interject a perceived tone to text on a screen. Sometimes that's hard to do. You can clearly see my account on Fauna is over 4 years old, but I have very few posts; this is due to my experience in the overall community described previous in this thread. I hope to walk away from this with a better understanding, and maybe make a friend or two from the people who genuinely understand kindhearted, benevolent people -- Like I'd hope people think of me. I hope to not have an experience like this again, but I also refuse to change the person that I am. I was told this animal was in good health, and I have not had a problem before purchasing reptiles so I trusted the seller.

I contacted Steve to let him know that this BOI was posted and I was unsatisfied. He replied back offering to make things right with a partial refund, but then retracted that offer stating I had taken things too far.

I'm not the only person who bought who posted here. This has to lend some credibility to the quality of the animals that were sold.

This is a serious question and not meant to be condescending at all, but do you have any previous experience with Pythons or snakes in general? I only ask because the pictures obviously and quite glaringly present an animal with far more than just a "bad shed." Personally, ignorance is not an excuse in this day and age but I can see how you might not know better if these were your first snakes.

Many over the years. I have never been burned before. I guess this is life. I'm very disappointed to see him make an offer to give a partial refund only to retract it. I know this community is forgiving when people try to make things right. I've seen people exiled and welcomed back. I still genuinely believe that he was under the impression this snake was fine. Which is why I bought it. Why did I think this? Because I believe in people, and when we lose hope, we lose everything.