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Inquiry Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

I think if you read all of joes posts in this thread you will find the timeline fits.
in particular you will see at post #23 it really does explain the 3 month timeline

thank you!
It does not show a timeline when it comes to vet care.

Shows arrival, symptoms showing 4 weeks after arrival and vet care dated 11/21

That's 3 months from between inital symptoms and vet visit.

Does this means the animals did not receive care during that period of time? I don't know because I have not seen other vet reports or bills which would make for a stronger case.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
Adding my experience -

I have never before posted in the BOI, though I've used it many times. I'm posting now because this thread caught my attention, and frankly, scared me to death. I also purchased a baby water snake from Underground Reptiles on September 20th, though mine was listed as a CB baby brown water snake. I added it on to a previously placed order consisting of two licorice black rat snakes and a green iguana, and they shipped together on September 21st, for arrival at the local UPS hub on September 22nd where I picked them up. Upon arrival she looked perfectly healthy (her deli cup was marked female, though I haven't verified). As I do with all new arrivals, I immediately placed her in quarantine in a separate room from my established collection.

In her enclosure I used dry repti-bark as a substrate with a half-log hide, a rock, and several other climbing and hiding accessories. I also incorporated a filtered water tub and live feeder guppies, as well as a staple diet of f/t silversides and (occasional) fish-scented f/t mice. I used an overhead heat source to create basking areas, which she used readily. I want to note that I know the dangers of a damp enclosure, so I've gone to great lengths to ensure that hers is always dry.

It was around the end of October that I noticed tiny white blisters showing up on her scales, making her look rough and bumpy. I scoured the internet looking for something that resembled her issue, but everything I read about blister disease and other skin lesions had pictures that looked nothing like her issue. I decided to wait for her to shed, which she did a day or two later. As the OP mentioned, after her shed, she looked perfectly fine again. This being my first water snake, I attributed the rough and bumpy look to a potential shedding issue and continued to monitor her. It happened again before her last shed, and once again, cleared up completely afterward. Now they're coming back.

I didn't think to take photographs when it was at its worst, but I do have pictures from September, October, and the most recent - which was taken on the 16th of this month, and you can see the blisters returning. I also have screenshots of my receipts from Underground.

Adding to all of this, I recently purchased another trio of WC banded water snakes from them on November 14th. The snakes shipped on November 15th and arrived on the 16th, along with three green anoles and three green tree frogs. All snakes shipped in the same bag, and seemed outwardly healthy upon arrival after a brief inspection. One snake in particular didn't seem to be acclimating well at all the next day, and was very 'jittery' - not hiding at all and even biting himself. He passed away on November 18th. The other two are still in quarantine and seem to be doing fine, with no signs of blisters. I do want to make a note that instead of three banded snakes, I was sent two banded and one brown water snake. This was fine with me, however, so no complaints. I also didn't contact Underground after the banded passed away - I chalked it up to potential stress, being wild caught, shipping, etc.

I'm not looking for any kind of restitution or to say anything against Underground Reptiles - all of my other animals from Underground are thriving with no issues whatsoever. I just wanted to chime in here with my own experience and concerns in regard to the blisters and the potential for this to be such a large issue. With all of this new information (to me), I'm going to get all three snakes in to my exotics vet next week after the holiday weekend. If anyone has any questions, I'll do my best to answer them.

I'm attaching pictures of the receipt from Underground for the initial purchase of the CB baby brown water snake, a picture of her the month she arrived, a picture from last month, and a picture from the 16th of this month- where the bumps are becoming visible again.
 

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It does not show a timeline when it comes to vet care.

Shows arrival, symptoms showing 4 weeks after arrival and vet care dated 11/21
The OP said that he changed the snake enclosures from minimal/sanitary to a more naturalistic setup to reduce stress on the animals, and then they improved for about a month. It wasn't until they started going downhill again that he took them to the vet. I think the 11/21 visit was the only one.

Also I'd be interested to know why the vet thought this might be SFD instead of some other issue.
 
Adding second purchase -

This is from my second purchase of the trio of water snakes. The receipt and individual photos of the three are included. The last photo is of the one that passed away.
 

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TBH I agree with APRIL that this issue would be much better served in the discussion forum bearing in mind the potential huge impact it could have.
Obviously as titled Underground Reptiles , anything pertaining to just Underground could still be posted here.
Anybody want to start a general discussion post on this subject?
 
What difference does it make?

It does not show a timeline when it comes to vet care.

Shows arrival, symptoms showing 4 weeks after arrival and vet care dated 11/21

That's 3 months from between inital symptoms and vet visit.

Does this means the animals did not receive care during that period of time? I don't know because I have not seen other vet reports or bills which would make for a stronger case.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
This forum, the BOI, is far and away the most heavily read forum of Fauna. Move it and this thread may get buried. I believe the topic is important enough to reach the greatest audience possible.
 
This forum, the BOI, is far and away the most heavily read forum of Fauna. Move it and this thread may get buried. I believe the topic is important enough to reach the greatest audience possible.
If the OP's snakes test positive for SFD then starting a discussion in the veterinary forum about the clinical signs, when they appeared, treatment options, ongoing research efforts, etc. would be appropriate. Right now there isn't one, since this may be the first time it has shown up in a private collection, but I suspect it won't be the last.
 
It makes a difference because you're claiming they sent you sick snakes, which you waited 3 MONTHS to seek vet care for.....that borders on negligence if you *know* they are sick and need treatment.
??????
Im sorry but have you even grasped what the true story is here?
Your comments just keep making me think eitger you have not read it in its entirety or you have and still have not comprehended its scope.
Dont forget also the op did not label it as a bad guy thread.
And no i do not mean to start a flame war with you but it does appear you are missing something
 
??????
Im sorry but have you even grasped what the true story is here?
Your comments just keep making me think eitger you have not read it in its entirety or you have and still have not comprehended its scope.
Dont forget also the op did not label it as a bad guy thread.
And no i do not mean to start a flame war with you but it does appear you are missing something

No, I've read the entire thread. And like Lucille, I see a lot of conjecture (without the lab results) and a major Chicken Little complex while naming a business.

Sweeping the usual procedures of the BOI and how we come to the conclusions we typically do under the guise of some kind of Apocalyptic fear mongering simply won't fly.
 
We are all awaiting the results from the lab. Until then, this thread is a call for others to come forward if they have purchased snakes from Underground Reptiles with similar symptoms.

I suggest only those who have the laboratory results and/or additional information about ill snakes originating from Underground Reptiles continue posting at this time. We do not want to bury critical information under a sea of opinions and irrelevant posts. Requests for additional information from those submitting information are obviously relevant posts.

This will be my last post on here until the laboratory results come in, as I have not purchased any reptiles from Underground Reptiles, and have already explained why these ill snakes pose a valid, real concern regarding our hobby and snake conservation as a whole.
 
I sincerely hope that nothing majorly destructive originates from this post, in regards to a contagion affecting captive or wild snakes....obviously that needs to be handled and dealt with, I also don't just believe things on the internet and require a more thorough examination of verifiable evidence before I take *anyone* at their word in regards to anything involving money (animal transaction or not).
 
This forum, the BOI, is far and away the most heavily read forum of Fauna. Move it and this thread may get buried. I believe the topic is important enough to reach the greatest audience possible.

This thread has important discussion material that, when going beyond the topic of the selling party, the buying party, the transaction, and associated matters, is off-topic to the point of review and awareness of the business and deal concerned. If people want to speak to the larger issue of the illness and its broader span of potential effects, that can be done elsewhere and it can be preserved elsewhere on the site. A link to that centralized collection of materials can certainly be provided here for reference, as it will give the potential for broader exposure and awareness that is desired by concerned individuals. That will avoid side-tracking the BOI-relevant portions and serve the needs of multiple perspectives on the multiple issues at play. If the off-topic material is deposited here, it may earn infractions. Just as BOI-relevant material does not belong elsewhere on this site, excessive BOI-irrelevant material does not go on the BOI. That also means there will not be naming of the business in such a discussion in a discussion forum section here that is not the BOI. I believe I am being clear here and providing a suggested solution that can serve both major sets of needs.
 
Thank you to all who see this is an important issue that deserves wide readership. I spoke with both Underground Reptile and Florida Fish and Wildlife today and USGS Wildlife Health. I have a call in to USFW which can issue rules governing the interstate trade of wildlife. This is an unfolding situation that may take weeks or months to play out.

For those who want to question silly details of timing of vet visits, or whether it is wise to buy water snakes from a wholesaler, or whether they can dig up a scientific journal that calls into question an assumption made years ago, all I can ask is that you stop. Take a deep breath and try to refocus on the issue at hand. Your inability to focus on the issue at hand makes you look silly.

Your opinions on these trivialities really aren't important right now.

I was hoping Underground would jump on here and engage - not about their side of the story - but (as I encouraged them to do) - acknowledge that this is potentially a big deal - not only for their own business, but for our wild herp populations, as well as our captive animals. And also talk about what they plan to do about it.

I'll continue to talk with Florida Fish and Wildlife and report back here what they are doing, what they see as possible future actions, etc. And I'll post the full lab report as soon as I get it. And I'll let everyone know what Federal Fish and Wildlife thinks about all this.

I'm a pretty rational guy. So those who want to throw the "hysterical" or "sky is falling" spear I'd ask you to reconsider - maybe double check your own motivation for your accusations. This may may a big deal, but more likely it is another step in what will eventually (and slowly) be a ban on interstate movement of native, and/or possibly exotic, herp species.

All we can do here is try to focus on the bigger issue - maybe including the role that large scale collectors, importers, wholesalers have on this emerging disease - and try not to get bogged down in the minutia.

Joe
 
Could you ask the DVM to photo copy his/her SOAP (the chart write up) it would clear a lot of this up... even if under A. it states the presumed problem v. others its still better then just the copy of the bill. I am not saying you didn't receive ill animals, just think you'll have less of a head ache with the Doctors writing to back this up. I am sorry that the snakes are doing poor and may possibly not make it. Best of luck!
 
I am focused on the issue. You purchased wild caught snakes. They became sick after you had them in your care. The symptoms appeared long after you had them. How would you think the importer would know that they were sick? You did not contact them before going public with the issue. "silly details", water snakes from a wholesaler ( my post)", deep breath" "refocus" "inability to focus" , really? You have sick snakes. Deal with it. Give the seller a chance to help correct the problem. You roll the dice every time you purchase wild caught animals. Especially cheap wild caught animals.
 
You roll the dice every time you purchase wild caught animals. Especially cheap wild caught animals.
Someone else has come forward stating that they bought a CB water snake from Underground, and it's exhibiting the same symptoms. So, this doesn't seem to be a purely WC issue.

He quite obviously is dealing with his sick snakes - as are some others, it seems. Considering that this thread seems to be more of a PSA than anything, and it may end up saving a lot of people a lot of trouble, I don't really see the need for griping about it. He's definitely not coming across to me as someone who really has any interest in simply assigning blame or getting any money out of the seller. Upon realizing that there were others who were having the very same problem from the very same seller, I think he did the right thing, in going public with the situation. There tends to be a lot of back-alley dealing going on in the herp world, and some of it ends up being really harmful for the masses who aren't privy until it's too late.

This is looking like something that could potentially shape up into a situation where keeping it hidden may have done many people a great disservice. We can speculate about whether or not Underground would have been nearly so proactive in addressing the situation with recent customers, had he gone to them first, but I have my doubts about that. Either way, there's no real point in kicking a guy in the nuts for trying to help the community as a whole, while seemingly asking for nothing from those who appear responsible for putting him in a lousy situation.

As was previously suggested, maybe those of us in the peanut gallery should put the pitchforks away until more relevant information comes forth.
 
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