Inquiry Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

[Lucille]

I hope I don't have to remind you that the BOI is not the center of the known universe. It seems maybe you have let that fact slip?

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That seems pretty snarky and I do not know what you are referring to. Surely you are not against experts coming here and helping our community?

So far you have a receipt from Underground, and what you say is a vet receipt. You need to connect possible dots by posting vet reports and lab results, because it is possible that Underground is not involved. It is possible they are. We don't know, at this point.

 

[Mike Schultz]

You need to

I see you posting these three words a lot on these boards, usually followed by an opinion of yours.

 

[thamnophis123]

Of the 9 that I received (invoice says 7, I know) all but one appeared initially healthy. Only one was a bit thin. But all ate well and were alert, active snakes.

Within 10 days white pustules started to show up on a couple of the snakes. Within 4 weeks of their arrival one was near death (pictured upstream in this thread) and others were showing signs - encrusted, scabby skin lesions, swollen eyes, etc.

You can see the sterile enclosures I quarantined the snakes in - each housed separately - in the attached photo. The cardboard is lifted up in the to show the pieces of cypress and water bowl. The enclosures were cleaned after every water spill, defecation (theirs, not mine) or anything else that left even a slightly damp enclosure.

Even so, symptoms continued to develop. Some snakes would shed them off and look like new again. Others were beginning to be deformed by the disease around their eyes / nose. (See the pic taken Sept 17, deformities around right eye) So I gave up on the sterile containers and built a large, naturalistic enclosure that allowed them to feed freely, reduce stress, bask at whatever temp they wanted and also bask under a UV light.

In this enclosure they would feed till they were bloated then bask all day. Their hotspot was 115-120F and they like to hide under a large rock with just their head stuck out under the light.

For over a month the symptoms subsided. I thought I had it beat until this latest guy showed up pretty bad off.

Joe

Were the snakes outwardly healthy on arrival or did they show signs of the disease then?

If they were outwardly healthy how long did it take until symptoms appeared?

 

[thamnophis123]

These pics are of the naturalistic enclosure ad of the snakes in it. Also one of a fat, healthy baby so you can see how cool they are when they're healthy!

 

[EdwardK]

I'm sure the OP is going to think I'm defending Underground but I am not, I am simply pointing out inconsistencies with the claims versus what is actually published for this disease and outstanding issues that need to be resolved.

SFD has wiped out - 100% mortality - federally endangered massassauga populations in Illinois and has proven to be 40% fatal in small scale lab studies. It has no known cure.
Joe

Where did you get the information that it has wiped out massasauga in Illinois? Do you have any citations for it or is it hearsay as I couldn't find anything in the literature to support the claim.

See for example http://www.herpconbio.org/Volume_11/Issue_2/Baker_etal_2016.pdf

Baker, Sarah J., et al. "SOURCES OF MORTALITY IN THE ENDANGERED EASTERN MASSASAUGA (SISTRURUS CATENATUS) IN ILLINOIS." Herpetological Conservation and Biology 11.2 (2016): 335-343.

The closest thing I can find is a blurb on this site showing that a total of 9 massasauga were were found infected in Illinois since 2008 see http://www.biologyofthepitvipers.co...-Massasauga-Sistrurus-catenatus-from-Illinois

. Since first identifying SFD in Illinois Eastern Massasaugas from the Carlyle Lake population in 2008, we have detected 9 cases total, occurring in each year except 2011.

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The claim for not treatment available has to be considered in the light of the fact that this is an emerging disease and that the tried treatments in the literature tend to have been on the animals that were most severely infected and as a result they might have been too compromised for a successful recovery.

When I looked at the pictures posted by the OP of his snake I was immediately reminded of the "disease" that was called "blister disease" in the hobby which was a form of dermatoses generally fungal in nature that were often caused by improper husbandry at some point (usually too cool and too wet). See for example http://www.bioone.org/doi/pdf/10.7589/0090-3558-12.3.405 McKenzie, R. A., and P. E. Green. "Mycotic dermatitis in captive carpet snakes (Morelia spilotes variegata)." Journal of wildlife diseases 12.3 (1976): 405-408.

(although I have to admit that it was called locally "water blisters" due to the association with too wet cage conditions or excessive soaking).

and a reference to "blister disease" in water snakes from 2007

http://mnfi.anr.msu.edu/reports/200...n_Monitoring_and_Habitat_Characterization.pdf

Lee, Y., et al. "Population monitoring and habitat characterization for the conservation and recovery of the northern population of the copperbelly water snake (Nerodia erythrogaster neglecta). Michigan Natural Features Inventory." Michigan Natural Features Inventory 2007-04 (2007).

So there are several questions that are going to be out there until this disease has been studied further and they are

1). is SFD the same as "blister disease" (which if it is the case then its been around for a very long time (for more than 50 years).

2). time to emergence of the symptoms of the disease (not well known only one trial with cottonmouths that I could find), but the emergence was rapid after inoculation (day 13 post inoculation) so depending on the emergence of the first symptom it raises questions as to where and when the snakes actually acquired the infection and whether or not all were infected at the same time or there was transfer by the keeper.

See Allender, Matthew C., et al. "Development of snake fungal disease after experimental challenge with ophidiomyces ophiodiicola in cottonmouths (Agkistrodon piscivorous)." PloS one 10.10 (2015): e0140193.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0140193

3). there appears to be a wide variation in mortality both within and between species see for example
Smith, C. E., J. Edwards, and J. M. Lorch. "Crotalus horridus (Timber Rattlesnake) fungal pathogens." Herpetological Review 44.519 (2013): e520.

Guthrie AL, Knowles S, Ballmann AE, Lorch JM. Detection of snake fungal disease in Virginia. J Wildl Dis, in press

4). Not all disinfectants are equal so the question of cross infection is a possibility see Rzadkowska, Marta, et al. "Evaluation of Common Disinfectants Effective against Ophidiomyces ophiodiicola, the Causative Agent of Snake Fungal Disease." Journal of Wildlife Diseases 52.3 (2016): 759-762.

As noted above there are some serious questions regarding the claims made by the OP as the statements don't always align with the (scant!) established data. Now the PCR results are going to be definitive for a diagnosis but we are still going to be left with the questions regarding whether infection was pre-shipment or post-shipment, and whether or not it is the same as the historic descriptions of "blister disease".

some comments

Ed

 

[EdwardK]

Found a second trial, in this one clinical signs emerged 4-8 days post inoculation see

http://mbio.asm.org/content/6/6/e01534-15.full#ref-18

Lorch, Jeffrey M., et al. "Experimental infection of snakes with Ophidiomyces ophiodiicola causes pathological changes that typify snake fungal disease." mBio 6.6 (2015): e01534-15.

some comments

Ed

 

[arex83]

That seems pretty snarky and I do not know what you are referring to. Surely you are not against experts coming here and helping our community?

So far you have a receipt from Underground, and what you say is a vet receipt. You need to connect possible dots by posting vet reports and lab results, because it is possible that Underground is not involved. It is possible they are. We don't know, at this point.

I'm really confused by this comment: "What you say is a vet receipt"... He clearly posted a photo of his vet receipt. Are you suggesting that it is not authentic???

 

[Lucille]

I'm really confused by this comment: "What you say is a vet receipt"... He clearly posted a photo of his vet receipt. Are you suggesting that it is not authentic???

I worded what I had to say carefully. While it (and the payment receipt for the snakes) may be authentic, there have been a number of not authentic documents posted as proof on the BOI in the past.
Vet documents are particularly difficult to verify, because ordinarily a vet's office will not talk to anyone except the account holder without written permission, about the critters and the account.

 

[snowgyre]

I am one of the professionals who has direct experience with snake fungal disease who gave a possible SFD diagnosis when Joe shared his photos on the Facebook page, Colubrid Crazy. Additionally, a technician who is capturing and testing snakes in Tennessee for SFD (Chris Fatzinger, who goes by the Facebook name Sheridan Chris Page Fatzinger, as it is a shared account) also confirmed that these lesions are characteristic of SFD. We directed Joe to contact the Florida Fish and Game Department to make them aware of the issue, pending results from Dr. Allender's lab (whom I have also been in contact with).

As Joe hinted at before, this is bigger than any one business. If the results from Dr. Allender show this snake has SFD, the entire facility at Underground Reptiles could be contaminated. Additionally, Underground Reptiles is well known for selling wild caught animals and has several active ads currently on Fauna. If Underground Reptiles is selling SFD positive animals and exporting them to areas that is currently free of SFD, this has widespread implications for not only the hobby, but also for snake conservation on the entire continent. As a wildlife biologist, my concern is first and foremost for wild snakes, thus any diseases that are being either knowingly or unknowingly spread by exporters must be caught early and dealt with swiftly. If anything, Joe was premature posting this thread before getting results from Dr. Allender's lab. However, he was requested to get more information about possible infected snakes from other individuals who have purchased from Underground Reptiles in the past to determine how widespread these lesions are, with the potential of getting biopsies to test at Dr. Allender's lab.

It's unfortunate that Joe is having to deal with this issue. I have no reason to suspect foul play on his part, and I am exceedingly grateful he is spending his own money paying for the tests for SFD. He could have ignored an issue that may directly result in the spread of a deadly disease if left unchecked. He spent a great deal of time, money, and effort on building his new Nerodia enclosure, only to have to destroy everything if these tests come back positive. Snake fungal disease is recoverable in captivity, but due to the variability of morbidity in wild snakes based upon genus and latitude, we have no choice but to take possible risks seriously. We also do not know if these snakes remain carriers even if they may be unsymptomatic. Functionally, this disease is identical to the fungal disease (Bsal) that shut down the interstate trade of true salamanders (Salamandridae) in the United States, and thus these results may have widespread implications for the hobby as well as for conservation.

 

[thamnophis123]

As noted above there are some serious questions regarding the claims made by the OP as the statements don't always align with the (scant!) established data.
Ed

I don't know Ed, kinda seems like you've gone all pedantic on us here.

The snakes arrived with no sign of disease. They were kept in quarantine and cleaned / sanitized with 20% bleach solution almost daily. They were kept bone dry. These are not hardly the conditions that "water blisters" develop, no?

Within a month of their arrival 6 of the 9 began showing symptoms of SFD - small white pustules on the dorsal surface. One was covered with them. I have photos of all 9 snakes taken August 20, 4 weeks after arrival.

Research indicates that the fungal species thought to be the cause of SFD (Ophidiomyces ophiodiicola) is often isolated on snakes with water blisters, or hibernation blisters. No one knows why it sometimes results in a lethal impact.

See this most recent synopsis:
Lorch JM et al. 2016 Snake fungal disease: an emerging threat to wild snakes. Phil. Trans. R. Soc. B 371: 20150457. http://dx.doi.org/10.1098/rstb.2015.0457

Finally, there are two other competent snake keepers who bought captive born to wild caught adult Nerodia from Underground Reptiles. Similar symptoms showed up in their animals and some also died. There experience can be verified by scrolling through the Facebook group: Nerodia - North American Water Snakes

As for the lethality of the disease there are a couple references out there. Here is one:
http://www.cwhc-rcsf.ca/docs/fact_sheets/SFD_FactSheet.pdf
However severe declines have been documented in some areas, such as a 50% decline in a popula on of mber ra lesnakes in New Hampshire in 2006, and 100% mortality in a popula on of massasauga ra lesnakes in Illinois in 2008.

 

[The new repti keeper]

So far you have a receipt from Underground, and what you say is a vet receipt. You need to connect possible dots by posting vet reports and lab results, because it is possible that Underground is not involved. It is possible they are. We don't know, at this point.[/QUOTE]


Is this individual a moderator or do they just get a kick at demanding things in almost every BOI post?

 

[snowgyre]

Lucille, normally I am in agreement with your demands for information. However, in this case I believe you are being unnecessarily overzealous. If you doubt the authenticity of the receipt, you may call the number listed on the receipt for confirmation. As far as him connecting the dots between the vet receipt and the snakes he received from Underground Reptiles... what exactly are you looking for here? How could he actually prove this other than having a video documenting every step of the way from opening the package through quarantine and over weeks of care?

 

[thamnophis123]

Functionally, this disease is identical to the fungal disease (Bsal) that shut down the interstate trade of true salamanders (Salamandridae) in the United States, and thus these results may have widespread implications for the hobby as well as for conservation.

Thank you! My only concern here is to stop the spread of what could a devastating disease. This has world wide implications as SFD has now been isolated in Europe and Australia as well as western US in captive herp populations.

Some of you may have noticed I didn't make any demands on Underground to refund money or pay vet bills? I don't expect them to and I didn't come here to demand they do. This seems like an incredibly difficult concept for some people to get their heads around!

Please get over the nitpicking of details. I'll post a full lab report as soon as it arrives from U of Illinois.

I want to post photos of the 6 of 9, new born Nerodia I got from Underground so people can see how this disease first manifests itself in the snakes. These photos were taken Aug 20, about 3.5 / 4.0 weeks after arrival.

The disease is evident in each of these photos - look for small white or grey blisters and in a couple, a single clouded eye. All develop into scabby lesions quickly ...

 

[AbsoluteApril]

Thank you! You are exactly right - This thread is way beyond good guy / bad guy. It isn't really even about Underground Reptiles. Its about a potential threat to our wild snakes, our captive snakes and our hobby as we understand it today.

I understand that but THIS thread is truly about Underground Reptiles.

The general discussion about the disease and it's impact should be taken to the discussion forums, whoever does so can leave a link here if they wish.

Is this individual a moderator ?

Moderator names are in BLUE

 

[thamnophis123]

Here are the last 2 of the 6. The one most effected died shortly after the photo was taken.

 

[Lucille]

what exactly are you looking for here

Perhaps a timeline. Little is known about this disease, it may be helpful to look at everything. What if there is another commonality between the keepers whose snakes have exhibited symptoms. or if there are a sudden increase of snakes with such symptoms that have not been near Underground?

It's unfortunate that Joe is having to deal with this issue. I have no reason to suspect foul play on his part, and I am exceedingly grateful he is spending his own money paying for the tests for SFD. He could have ignored an issue that may directly result in the spread of a deadly disease if left unchecked. He spent a great deal of time, money, and effort on building his new Nerodia enclosure, only to have to destroy everything if these tests come back positive. Snake fungal disease is recoverable in captivity, but due to the variability of morbidity in wild snakes based upon genus and latitude, we have no choice but to take possible risks seriously. We also do not know if these snakes remain carriers even if they may be unsymptomatic. Functionally, this disease is identical to the fungal disease (Bsal) that shut down the interstate trade of true salamanders (Salamandridae) in the United States, and thus these results may have widespread implications for the hobby as well as for conservation.

I agree. I hope that the lab results are available soon, and that they are conclusive. I think that it is very important to establish what it is that Joe's snakes have, and where it came from.

 

[thamnophis123]

...it may be helpful to look at everything.

Helpful, yes. Possible, no.

Thats why we have to look at the preponderance of the evidence.The symptoms all showed up in new born water snakes, born at the same facility, but sent out to 3 different keepers. The snakes subsequent care was perfectly randomized - a (nearly) perfect double blind study.

The fact that all had snakes develop the same symptoms in the same time frame makes it almost impossible that the disease was the result of captive conditions after the snakes left Underground. Plus the fact that we all have years of experience keeping Nerodia - in 2 of the cases I would say specializing in them.

For what its worth, I spoke with Underground this morning. They are aware of this thread.

 

[Deborah Stewart]

I am curious

So the vet visit is date Nov 21st the snake purchase is dated July 25th, what happened during those 4 months?

The only reason I ask is because 4 months is a long time, I know you said that you have photos of all 9 snakes taken August 20, 4 weeks after arrival. But do you have a vet report from that time as well because that would help the timeline or did you simply started go to the vet for the first time on November 21st which would be 3 weeks after those pictures were taken and 4 months after receiving the animals?

 

[Deborah Stewart]

I am curious

So the vet visit is date Nov 21st the snake purchase is dated July 25th, what happened during those 4 months?

The only reason I ask is because 4 months is a long time, I know you said that you have photos of all 9 snakes taken August 20, 4 weeks after arrival. But do you have a vet report from that time as well because that would help the timeline or did you simply started go to the vet for the first time on November 21st which would be 3 weeks after those pictures were taken and 4 months after receiving the animals?

Meant 3 months.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[Black Adder]

Meant 3 months.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

I think if you read all of joes posts in this thread you will find the timeline fits.
in particular you will see at post #23 it really does explain the 3 month timeline

thank you!