Inquiry Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

[tlmoon]

I actually don't doubt the facts here. I believe that the OP when he says got the water snakes from UR and that they had SFD from there. It seems at the very least quite likely and inevitable that it would happen at some point given that snakes are being collected from infected areas. I also believe Logan. This is two cases which makes it even more likely.

My only point of contention is that by posting this in the BOI the OP necessarily made it about UR and then, because he doesn't seem to understand the nature of the BOI, took offense multiple times when questioned about evidence and even got ruffled that anyone would mention him wanting a refund which is a pretty reasonable question for the BOI.

Bullying - I dunno. Calling names at people who disagreed with him, complaining that Lucille asked him about vet reports and complaining to a mod about that, threatening to come and fight somebody who disagreed with him (at least that's what Nick@MCMB posteds)... And earning enough infractions to earn a temporary ban....none of this is stellar behavior.

Do I agree that the snakes have SFD and this is a major issue? Absolutely. Is this thread the best way to handle it? I'm not sure. It's good to get the info out there, I agree. It seems like there are better places for this, such as the Vet forum thread Dan posted.
Has the OP's behavior been unacceptable at times? I would say yes. I'm not sure what his deal is, but it's hard to listen to a messenger who can't tolerate alternative explanations or fair questions, and quickly sinks to insults and name calling and wanting to fight somebody about it.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

How I see it-

The message/information has great potential value. I do not doubt that the test results are real although I have yet to see them (I still place faith in them despite that).

The delivery and manner of response were needlessly poor. Even when some arguments were getting adversarial (on both sides), he handled it in a way that could have been much better. This does not change the raw data from the testing.

The behind the scenes stuff was a huge disappointment to me and is not the hallmark of decency (nor was it maturely taking responsibility at all). This also does not change the raw data from the testing.

The data should stand independently of the messenger. It can be difficult to keep the two pieces separate at times.

I hope UR uses this opportunity to modify some things in case they had or have a problem that could persist.

 

[tim brophy]

How I see it-

The message/information has great potential value. I do not doubt that the test results are real although I have yet to see them (I still place faith in them despite that).

The delivery and manner of response were needlessly poor. Even when some arguments were getting adversarial (on both sides), he handled it in a way that could have been much better. This does not change the raw data from the testing.

The behind the scenes stuff was a huge disappointment to me and is not the hallmark of decency (nor was it maturely taking responsibility at all). This also does not change the raw data from the testing.

The data should stand independently of the messenger. It can be difficult to keep the two pieces separate at times.

I hope UR uses this opportunity to modify some things in case they had or have a problem that could persist.

Nick,
As I stated yesterday, the official results from Dr. Allender's office at the University of Illinois have been posted on the Colubrid Crazy and SFD Facebook pages. I do not know if Joe Monahan has any plans to post them here eventually; obviously he cannot now because he was banned. I assume you have access to FB, or know someone who does so you can see the results for yourself.
Thank you.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Nick,
As I stated yesterday, the official results from Dr. Allender's office at the University of Illinois have been posted on the Colubrid Crazy and SFD Facebook pages. I do not know if Joe Monahan has any plans to post them here eventually; obviously he cannot now because he was banned. I assume you have access to FB, or know someone who does so you can see the results for yourself.
Thank you.

I do not doubt them. I do have FB and may give a look later.

 

[john pipik]

underground reptiles sick snake

I purchased three green water snakes from them .they had parisites I expected that because they were wild caught .two didn't make it because of the ticks. 3.99 each. that looks like a green in that picture. adults were only 13.00 dollars. 185 vet bill for a 13.00 dollar snake. I would have just written it off. and if he didn't contact them what are they suppose to do.i purchased a couple off balls off them no problems.my self I will not buy will caught again lesson learned.

 

[tim brophy]

What is Underground Reptiles going to do with their wild caught snakes being offered for sale? I see they have not responded here at all.

 

[Lucille]

A wider question is what are ALL vendors and hobbyists who collect or buy/sell wild snakes going to do? It would be very helpful to find out how this particular disease spreads from one critter to another, and whether that has been happening in collections.

 

[BrooklynJoe]

A wider question is what are ALL vendors and hobbyists who collect or buy/sell wild snakes going to do? It would be very helpful to find out how this particular disease spreads from one critter to another, and whether that has been happening in collections.

I couldn't agree more

 

[tim brophy]

Lucille hit the nail right on the head,

 

[bcr229]

A wider question is what are ALL vendors and hobbyists who collect or buy/sell wild snakes going to do? It would be very helpful to find out how this particular disease spreads from one critter to another, and whether that has been happening in collections.

Very little research has been done into how snakes get this disease. I think all that people can do if this is discovered in their collection is assume worst-case scenario - the spores can be spread through the air - and isolate the affected critters during treatment.

Since the disease does seem to show up within a few weeks once a snake is exposed, vendors could mitigate the spread by holding snakes for 30-60 days before selling them, but I don't see that happening.

 

[tim brophy]

Does Underground Reptiles export to Europe and Asia? I would think even there captive raised herps would be suspect. Frankly, I would not even buy feeders from them.

 

[Cletus Marley]

Lucille hit the nail right on the head,

I think the OP hit the nail on the head before anyone else did. It's a shame he didn't choose his words more carefully. I'm all for exposing scammers but it's a shame that good people with good intentions get lost in the shuffle over word games and inquisitions. Some people just can't handle being grilled.

 

[Lucille]

Does Underground Reptiles export to Europe and Asia? I would think even there captive raised herps would be suspect. Frankly, I would not even buy feeders from them.

Tim, I believe harm may be done by repeatedly naming this particular company and expressing concern while not at the same time cautioning the reptile community by making the comments broader.
Of course, there may be cause for concern, but it may lull be people into a false sense of security to name a single company and not also express at the same time that ALL collectors, buyers and sellers of wild caught animals here and abroad may have their collections at risk.

If you think captive raised herps are also suspect, they must be suspect in ANY collection that has wild caught critters, or at ANY vendor that sells both wild caught and captive bred.

 

[tim brophy]

Tim, I believe harm may be done by repeatedly naming this particular company and expressing concern while not at the same time cautioning the reptile community by making the comments broader.
Of course, there may be cause for concern, but it may lull be people into a false sense of security to name a single company and not also express at the same time that ALL collectors, buyers and sellers of wild caught animals here and abroad may have their collections at risk.

If you think captive raised herps are also suspect, they must be suspect in ANY collection that has wild caught critters, or at ANY vendor that sells both wild caught and captive bred.

Agreed. The only reason I kept naming that company is because I was trying to stay on point with Joe Monahan's original post about "you know who". Any company that exploits wild caught herps could be suspect. Maybe the entire concept of taking wild herps out of their habitats and selling them should be re-evaluated. I personally have no problem at all with a hobbyist collecting a few snakes, if legal, but wholesale collecting for profit I do not condone. Maybe the threat of introducing SFD into your collection will kill that part of the industry.

 

[Fangthane]

There's another thread for discussing the broader implications of a hypothetical SFD outbreak. Seeing as their name is in the thread's title, it sure seems appropriate to single Underground out in comments. At this moment, ALL sellers aren't in question - Underground is.

Has Underground taken ANY steps to determine whether their current stock is infected? Have they done anything to curtail the acquisition/sale of WC animals, or those neonates that were born in captivity to animals that were WC? Are they taking this situation seriously at all? At what point does their apparent disinterest in addressing this situation start to become conspicuous?

 

[tim brophy]

There's another thread for discussing the broader implications of a hypothetical SFD outbreak. Seeing as their name is in the thread's title, it sure seems appropriate to single Underground out in comments. At this moment, ALL sellers aren't in question - Underground is.

Has Underground taken ANY steps to determine whether their current stock is infected? Have they done anything to curtail the acquisition/sale of WC animals, or those neonates that were born in captivity to animals that were WC? Are they taking this situation seriously at all? At what point does their apparent disinterest in addressing this situation start to become conspicuous?

Maybe they have determined that the best course of action is to hunker down and hope it goes away. But it won't. There are several threads all over FB that are discussing Underground Reptiles. The topic has gone viral on FB. Or should I say the topic has gone "fungal"??

 

[Lucille]

Maybe they have determined that the best course of action is to hunker down and hope it goes away. But it won't. There are several threads all over FB that are discussing Underground Reptiles. The topic has gone viral on FB. Or should I say the topic has gone "fungal"??

What are other companies doing? If they are hunkering down, what then? I think the creation of the discussion thread was a good way for us to discuss the scientific aspects of this disease. But that is not what is going on here.
If you are implying that Underground's response to this disease defines them, then the responses of every other company or personal collection that has both wild caught and captive bred snakes and is aware of this disease defines them as well.

 

[tim brophy]

What are other companies doing? If they are hunkering down, what then? I think the creation of the discussion thread was a good way for us to discuss the scientific aspects of this disease. But that is not what is going on here.
If you are implying that Underground's response to this disease defines them, then the responses of every other company or personal collection that has both wild caught and captive bred snakes and is aware of this disease defines them as well.

I would imagine they are all hunkering down. However, Underground Reptiles is the company that shipped an SFD infected water snake from Florida to Joe Monahan in Iowa. I believe it is possible that other companies have been inadvertently doing this also. Really, they would not know if they did, unless the disease was already manifest. What is important from now on is how companies that sell wild caught snakes respond. I would put a moratorium on selling any wild caught snake, if I were them.
Underground Reptiles is not the "Typhoid Mary" of the reptile industry. There are a few that sell wild caught, native species. They were just unfortunate in selling to a guy who was in tune to what the disease was. I am very glad Joe brought it to the attention of the BOI, as are many others. But he was banned, right?

 

[Fangthane]

If you are implying that Underground's response to this disease defines them, then the responses of every other company or personal collection that has both wild caught and captive bred snakes and is aware of this disease defines them as well.

That's a load of if I ever saw one. Not only are other companies and their practices entirely irrelevant to this thread about Underground; there's currently no reason to reach so far to try to implicate them. What Joe Blow's Reptiles may be doing about this information needn't be a matter of public discussion, until such a time as a good case is made that JB's was linked to the spread of the disease - in their own thread.

You could substitute SFD with IBD, Crypto, Adenovirus, Chytrid or other contagion that could easily spread through poor husbandry practices, and your statement would be just as ridiculous. Since there's a very plausible link between Underground and contaminated stock, wanting to know how they're handling this situation is reasonable. Focusing on anyone else's action/inaction doesn't have a place here in this thread.

 

[Lucille]

I would imagine they are all hunkering down. However, Underground Reptiles is the company that shipped an SFD infected water snake from Florida to Joe Monahan in Iowa. I believe it is possible that other companies have been inadvertently doing this also. Really, they would not know if they did, unless the disease was already manifest. What is important from now on is how companies that sell wild caught snakes respond.

I absolutely agree with you and your analysis. I am hoping that those who are researching this disease come out with guidelines on what all companies including Underground should be doing at this point.