Inquiry Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

[natsamjosh]

Guys, is all the schoolyard insulting about the value of people's chosen species really necessary? Some of us keep snakes worth thousands of dollars apiece, others just a few dollars apiece, but they are all snakes, and they are all species that each of us loves. Who the heck cares how much someone chooses to spend or not spend on their animals???

The important information in this thread is that there is a potentially catastrophic and contagious disease that has popped up in at least one vendor's stock. We should be focused as a reptile community on how to protect our animals, not on beating each other down.

I don't think anyone is arguing that we shouldn't protect our animals. I would guess EVERYONE involved in this thread loves their animals.

I don't know anyone who has posted in this thread, so I am pretty objective here. Unless I've missed something, which is quite possible, your statement "potentially catastrophic and contagious disease that has popped up in at least one vendor's stock." has not been proven true. So far only the OP's snake has been confirmed as having the disease in question. And the vendor's facility was deemed clean. I completely agree we shouldn't beat down each other, but citing things as facts when they are not supported beyond a reasonable doubt is not responsible either. In fact, I would argue that name-calling and insults are less destructive than making unsubstantiated claims. (Just ask Burmese python breeders who can't sell
across state lines anymore, all based on junk science that "proved" Burmese pythons will take over 1/3 of the US in 100 years due to global warming.)

The problem I have with the OP is that he did seem to act as if there were ulterior motives at play. That is not a fact, just my opinion after spending an hour reading through this entire thread. The main red flag that I can't get past was his statement, "I did business with Underground and got pretty much what I expected - sick snakes."

Call me crazy, but I wouldn't normally purchase from a company where I expected the animal to be sick.

 

[Mike Schultz]

(Just ask Burmese python breeders who can't sell
across state lines anymore, all based on junk science that "proved" Burmese pythons will take over 1/3 of the US in 100 years due to global warming.)

And don't forget, earlier in this thread when I mentioned the Burmese issue he argued back IN FAVOR OF the ban. While reporting on a trumped up, *possibly completely falsified* issue and involving USFW in an effort to pass even more laws.

So this guy is in favor of the constrictor ban that was passed under the guise of protecting our wildlife, and he is trying to get more animals banned, under the guise of protecting our wildlife.

Warning bells are ringing folks! Connect the dots here...

 

[Robert Walker]

The important information in this thread is that there is a potentially catastrophic and contagious disease that has popped up...

I would agree that SFD appears catastrophic when untreated.

popped up... in at least one vendor's stock.

One case of SFD does not prove it came from the vendor's stock. It only proves so far what Mike said below...

So far, this thread has proven only that Joe Monahan has SFD in his collection

The origins are speculated at this point by the OP, not proven. The OP even admits that "it is possible" that the SFD could have come from him instead. "less likely", "probably" = reference speculation.

 

[Will0W783]

This is true. My wording was not the best. From what I've read so far, the OP's collection has been proven to have SFD based on lab work, and there are other people possessing snakes of the same species with similar symptoms. I thought that the evidence pointed to those snakes coming from the same source, but I might be mistaken in my thinking that at least one other person proved SFD in their water snakes they received from Underground Reptiles. I have nothing against Underground Reptiles; I've purchased from them in the past and the animals were ok.

I simply meant that slinging insults at each other based on the dollar value of snakes is petty and not going to help anyone figure out what might/might not be in danger in the captive snake community from SFD.

Also, I am 100% AGAINST the constrictor ban. ...it's solved nothing, pythons cannot establish wild populations in most of the US due to the climate here. All that ban did was put a lot of small businesses out of business. The government, whether they are well-meaning or not (I think not) are subject to lobbying and the interests of groups with $$$$$$. They are not going to protect our hobby. WE need to. WE need to figure out what might/might not be infected with SFD and police ourselves. Fish & Wildlife is likely only going to institute more bans, which we don't need.

 

[Robert Walker]

I simply meant that slinging insults at each other based on the dollar value of snakes is petty

Agreed

 

[Will0W783]

It appears I missed the page where Underground Reptiles posted that they had F&W come to their facility and found no evidence of SFD. I also noted that they posted that the OP had never contacted them, but rather went right to Fauna and Fish & Wildlife.

I'm very glad that Underground handled their end properly and that all of their snakes seem healthy. If they were the source, I would expect that they would have at least some animals showing symptoms. The OP also should have reached out to them before the government.

I hope that the true source of SFD can be determined and contained, so that it doesn't become a large problem in the snake hobby. I found very little information online about species it can affect, but it seems it was first noticed in a population of timber rattlesnakes, and has been seen as well in several colubrids, including the water snakes. Could it affect all snake species, or is it somewhat limited, like boid inclusion body disease?

 

[Pasodama]

I agree that SFD has not been proven, beyong a shadow of doubt, as having stemmed from OR.
Also, we do not know enough, yet, about SFD. However, it does appear to merit some concern.

That said, I appreciate the post, by Will0W783, because it does bother me when the value, of a reptile, is determined, by some, to only be worth its monetary value. Also when an animal is deemed as "garbage" if they have something wrong, with them, through no fault of their own.
Every animal's life matters and beauty/fascination/interest can be found in all.
I also feel it is wrong to denigrate an individual solely based on the animal they wish to keep.

Also agree that we should remain united, as best we can, with re. to the welfare of our animals ... even if we cannot about each other (on personal level/s).

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[Pasodama]

Meant UR, not OR.

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[DavidBeard]

I don't think anyone is arguing that we shouldn't protect our animals. I would guess EVERYONE involved in this thread loves their animals.

I don't know anyone who has posted in this thread, so I am pretty objective here. Unless I've missed something, which is quite possible, your statement "potentially catastrophic and contagious disease that has popped up in at least one vendor's stock." has not been proven true. So far only the OP's snake has been confirmed as having the disease in question. And the vendor's facility was deemed clean. I completely agree we shouldn't beat down each other, but citing things as facts when they are not supported beyond a reasonable doubt is not responsible either. In fact, I would argue that name-calling and insults are less destructive than making unsubstantiated claims. (Just ask Burmese python breeders who can't sell
across state lines anymore, all based on junk science that "proved" Burmese pythons will take over 1/3 of the US in 100 years due to global warming.)

The problem I have with the OP is that he did seem to act as if there were ulterior motives at play. That is not a fact, just my opinion after spending an hour reading through this entire thread. The main red flag that I can't get past was his statement, "I did business with Underground and got pretty much what I expected - sick snakes."

Call me crazy, but I wouldn't normally purchase from a company where I expected the animal to be sick.

Amen, especially the last point....something about this thread and the OP has bugged ever since it started.

 

[Pasodama]

The main red flag that I can't get past was his statement, "I did business with Underground and got pretty much what I expected - sick snakes."

Call me crazy, but I wouldn't normally purchase from a company where I expected the animal to be sick.

That really was quite an odd statement for the OP to make.
WC, or CB, only healthy (or outwardly healthy) animals should be sold but, then, I am just as crazy as you. I would not buy from a company where I had the undoubted expectation that they would send out sick animals.

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[JimM]

I'm not singling out UR but I can't see the reason anyone would buy from other than a breeder these days. So many good people out there breeding the best of the best of almost anything you could want ... yet some still can't pass up something WC , with possible big problems down the road because of the price. The cheap price doesn't mean much when you get into vet bills, treatments and possibly contaminating the rest of your collection.

If you want something like a water snake , go catch one yourself ... it's a lot more fun. But either way a good quarantine procedure should be set up and followed if you're also keeping other things.

Hope the OP didn't get too comfortable and relaxed with this when his snakes seemed to be over the problem.

 

[Robert Walker]

Some easily accessible Google results:

Joe Monahan and his battle with high nitrates in Boone
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/sto...ater/80618658/
“That’s when I found out it was essentially poison,” Monahan said of his family’s water. Monahan believes that the city doesn’t want to do a better job of notifying residents because the news would upset local residents and farmers. “They are trying to cover up the problem,” he said. “They don’t want to talk about it."

Farmers Market Disputes
Decade-old dispute means three farmers markets coexist in Ames
http://www.amestrib.com/sections/ne...means-three-farmers-markets-coexist-ames.html

Starving Owls
http://www.birdsoutsidemywindow.org/...-not-starving/
Joe Monahan of Boone County, Iowa generated a heated discussion on PABIRDS last week when he urged folks to save snowy owls by feeding them store-bought mice...

Corporate Corruption at Universities
Public good before corporate greed on the Iowa Board of Regents
http://www.iowaregents.edu/media/doc...7A2E361EDB.pdf
"have twisted the role of Iowaigfas public universities to serve private interests rather than the public good. Corporate corruption inside our public institutions by Our public officials is not acceptable"

Ames resident requests housing information
http://www.iowastatedaily.com/news/a...55130073b.html "Joe Monahan has caught onto a recent trend in Ames, and so far, he doesn’t like what he’s seen. Monahan is the program coordinator for Engineering Distance Education (Iowa State University)"...

Iowa Farmers and Neighbors
http://iowaneighbors.blogspot.com/
Know thy Enemy: Smithfield Foods. New Study: Pork Contaminated. Getting Help: Fighting your Corporate CAFO

 

[Lucille]

You need to connect possible dots by posting vet reports and lab results, because it is possible that Underground is not involved.

Warning bells are ringing folks! Connect the dots here...

Good to see you are a dot fan too, Mike.

I do not know why you would purchase animals that you expected to be ill. That does not ring true.

When I addressed the OP with this post, there just followed a lot of aggravation. Half a thread later:

The problem I have with the OP is that he did seem to act as if there were ulterior motives at play. That is not a fact, just my opinion after spending an hour reading through this entire thread. The main red flag that I can't get past was his statement, "I did business with Underground and got pretty much what I expected - sick snakes."

Call me crazy, but I wouldn't normally purchase from a company where I expected the animal to be sick.

A LOT of this thread was unfortunate background noise by the OP, clouding the issue and trying to pound into us that Underground had to be guilty and if we asked questions, something was wrong with us.

I appreciate and applaud all those who persisted in their questions despite the difficulties of doing so, and who are continuing to think through all that happened, connect dots, and come up with quite different conclusions that what the OP was trying to pound into us..

 

[tim brophy]

Was the inspection at Underground Reptiles visual, or did they actually test any snakes?

 

[Lucille]

Tim I'm surprised to see you here after you were caught spreading those lies about Underground.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/richard...ake-news-is-now-business-news/2/#6ed7cb372da8

How many people would have believed the lies about UR being a significant supporter of this site if those lies had not been ferreted out?

 

[tim brophy]

Tim I'm surprised to see you here after you were caught spreading those lies about Underground.

Lucille, I was not lying. I actually thought Underground Reptiles was a significant contributor to Fauna. I was wrong and I spoke incorrectly.
Nonetheless, my question remains. Was the inspection at Underground visual, or were biological samples actually collected. Thank you.

 

[Lucille]

Lucille, I was not lying. I actually thought Underground Reptiles was a significant contributor to Fauna.

'Studied ignorance'. You did not check your facts, and could have done so without too much trouble.

Some easily accessible Google results:

Joe Monahan and his battle with high nitrates in Boone
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/sto...ater/80618658/
“That’s when I found out it was essentially poison,” Monahan said of his family’s water. Monahan believes that the city doesn’t want to do a better job of notifying residents because the news would upset local residents and farmers. “They are trying to cover up the problem,” he said. “They don’t want to talk about it."

Farmers Market Disputes
Decade-old dispute means three farmers markets coexist in Ames
http://www.amestrib.com/sections/ne...means-three-farmers-markets-coexist-ames.html

Starving Owls
http://www.birdsoutsidemywindow.org/...-not-starving/
Joe Monahan of Boone County, Iowa generated a heated discussion on PABIRDS last week when he urged folks to save snowy owls by feeding them store-bought mice...

Corporate Corruption at Universities
Public good before corporate greed on the Iowa Board of Regents
http://www.iowaregents.edu/media/doc...7A2E361EDB.pdf
"have twisted the role of Iowaigfas public universities to serve private interests rather than the public good. Corporate corruption inside our public institutions by Our public officials is not acceptable"

Ames resident requests housing information
http://www.iowastatedaily.com/news/a...55130073b.html "Joe Monahan has caught onto a recent trend in Ames, and so far, he doesn’t like what he’s seen. Monahan is the program coordinator for Engineering Distance Education (Iowa State University)"...

Iowa Farmers and Neighbors
http://iowaneighbors.blogspot.com/
Know thy Enemy: Smithfield Foods. New Study: Pork Contaminated. Getting Help: Fighting your Corporate CAFO

I think some of these people deserve to see this thread.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

I was not lying. I actually thought Underground Reptiles was a significant contributor to Fauna. I was wrong and I spoke incorrectly.
Nonetheless, my question remains. Was the inspection at Underground visual, or were biological samples actually collected. Thank you.

Whats the difference Tim, its over. Your beating a dead horse !. JERRY

 

[Pasodama]

Was the inspection at Underground Reptiles visual, or did they actually test any snakes?

The investigator indicated a visual inspection and did not indicate testing.

~~~~

 

[tim brophy]

The investigator indicated a visual inspection and did not indicate testing.

~~~~

Thank you.