Karma

[Big Borg Reptiles]

I almost didn't want to make this thread because I don't want to get into an argument, but I feel like there's a very serious issue with the karma system on this site. I don't think it's any fault of the moderators or Rich, I don't know that it's ANYONE'S fault, and I very seriously have no idea how to rectify it. That being said, I still feel like it should be discussed.

I already mentioned this to some extent on another thread where I thought someone was making an attack on me (and I inappropriately responded by blowing up), and I figured that I might as well make it an official topic and discuss it properly like a normal adult.

Some of the people reading this will remember that I was banned a while ago for getting into an argument with another member. I completely deserved it, the other person started it but I retaliated and I deserved what I got. Since that happened, I have made it a point to completely stay away from the BOI, completely stay away from arguments, and really just do everything I could to make up for being a jerk by only posting on the discussion forums, sharing pictures, being helpful, and being friendly. Because I'm human I've erred a couple times in this goal and have argued with people, but for the most part I've been trying very hard to just be a positive member and contribute constructively.

Since doing this, I've had zero positive karma given to me. When I look at my karma points, 99% of them are for being snarky on the BOI and calling people out. When I think of karma I think of doing good things and being rewarded with good things. Calling someone out and being rude is not the way I think of earning karma points.

I'm not saying that I want my points taken away P), just that there is something fundamentally wrong with this. Again, I have NO idea how to fix this, but it's an observation that I think we all can relate to. I personally have been awarding karma to members who are helpful and friendly but I don't find that to be the norm. I just think that something needs to change.

Again, this is nothing against the staff on this site, I think it's a general problem with the community that we all have to work together on to fix. If you disagree I'm more than willing to hear other opinions, but I would appreciate it if we can at least keep things civil (I know I'm not the best person to request that, but I promise I will try my best and have been recently).

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

I should add that I've received zero positive karma over a 3 month period. The last karma I received was in January and was from the BOI (neglecting one instance of Nickolas finally converting me to his way of thought )

 

[Lucille]

I think that generalizing that there is something wrong with the system based on your own experience may not be entirely valid. But maybe it is.
Perhaps validate or form a theory by posting a poll or some other way of checking out with other people what's going on (ask people to characterize the tenor/reason of the last 10 karmas they received, for instance).
I checked on my own recent karma points, and while some were from the BOI, there were others for instance, for checking on a member that had been away for a while, a birthday I remembered, etc.
And even the BOI ones were many times not for snark, but rather for making a point that others agreed with or found interesting or relevant.
Remember that participation is a two edged sword.
Sometimes I get karma for a good comment, other times I get people saying that some people participate too much (lol, usually they are in a corner by then and can't think of anything rational to say so they throw that at the wall and see if it sticks).
Be yourself. Be happy. Be genuinely interested in what's going on and the people here. The rest is just frosting on the cake.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

And even the BOI ones were many times not for snark, but rather for making a point that others agreed with or found interesting or relevant.

That's usually what I get karma for as well (I used being snarky as an all-inclusive description), but I don't think of that as karma.

Your post in general is a good response though. I think you're right, I should consider it something personal that I endure to achieve, it's just now that I'm "outside of the crowd" it's sad to look back in and see what I was. It's really sad for me to see how people act and how people are rewarded.

I don't know that there is a solution. And I'm absolutely not saying I'm better than anyone or that I'm sitting on some pedestal. I still have arguments from time to time and I still call people out from time to time. But I wish that more members would make it an effort to be helpful and friendly rather than call people out or "make a point".

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

I don't think that "making a point" should be considered grounds for positive karma. That's not what true Karma is about. (No I'm not religious, just from a literal standpoint)

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

I think that generalizing that there is something wrong with the system based on your own experience may not be entirely valid.

Sorry for multi-posting (I have a bad habit of that) but this is completely true. This statement is entirely based on my own experience, but I have a very suspicious feeling that this holds true for almost every member. I would be incredibly surprised if this wasn't the case.

The fact is, a lot of us haven't been on this site for years and we haven't built up the relationships that others who are veterans have. You mention posting about people's birthdays, yet I have no clue about when ANYONE'S birthday is lol, and I'm sure most members are in the same boat. For those who have been around for a long time, it's easier to form relationships and get karma in that sense, but for newer members that's simply not possible.

It's an observation based on personal experience, but if it's not an accurate observation I will eat my shoe. And my shoe is very, very old and very, very dirty.

 

[Lucille]

You mention posting about people's birthdays, yet I have no clue about when ANYONE'S birthday is lol, and I'm sure most members are in the same boat. For those who have been around for a long time, it's easier to form relationships and get karma in that sense, but for newer members that's simply not possible.

It's an observation based on personal experience, but if it's not an accurate observation I will eat my shoe. And my shoe is very, very old and very, very dirty.

Birthdays are posted on the main page daily. If you know/respect/like someone, and their birthday comes up, just wish them a happy birthday. New people can do that.
Forming relationships is all about being genuinely interested in people and keeping your eyes open to the world around you. If you see that someone is newly married, just had a child, just opened a business, just had an incredible clutch hatch out, send them a note of congratulations.

 

[Occidentalis]

This may be an of relative traffic as well as people just respond well to snark. If you get 1 feedback unit per 100 views, a thread on BOI stuff will result in a lot more total feedback. There is little to no activity on the discussion forums, so you'll have to wait a lot longer or forever for any feedback there. I can't think of a way to fix that other than using the discussion forums more. I try to submit interesting (or whatever I think is interesting) scientific developments when they happen or if I'm part of them, but there's really not a lot of interest in discussion. I really hate Facebook but it seems that's where the active discussion happens nowadays.

 

[bcr229]

The vast majority of my karma is from the BOI, but to be fair, that's where most of my posts are.

I also some from my advice in the veterinary forum, and from the thread about my reticulated python's surgery earlier this year.

 

[snowgyre]

People get emotional in the BOI. When people act on emotion, their actions are rarely logical. Most people with lots of karma on this site got that karma from the BOI, for good or bad. I've received positive karma from people who agreed with me and negative karma for people who disagreed with me. Karma for agreement isn't necessarily a bad thing so long as the argument was presented in a professional way, although certainly there are those who will use karma as a shallow attempt at retribution as well.

In all honesty, seeing a person with red boxes under their name is more important than how many green boxes someone has. The red boxes are useful... I can look up their posting history and see where and if they screwed up, if they just had a bad day and got dinged, or if they're a genuine idiot/liar/scammer that deserved every bit of red under their name. I think the karma system is more important for keeping red box people in check rather than feeding the egos of people with green boxes.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

If you get 1 feedback unit per 100 views, a thread on BOI stuff will result in a lot more total feedback.

This is very true, and I'm never posting in discussion threads with the intention of gaining karma, it was just an observation I made. This is a point I hadn't considered though, it could simply be an issue of traffic.

 

[Casey Hulse]

Since doing this, I've had zero positive karma given to me. When I look at my karma points, 99% of them are for being snarky on the BOI and calling people out. When I think of karma I think of doing good things and being rewarded with good things. Calling someone out and being rude is not the way I think of earning karma points.

This is interesting, I have been involved in a thread on the BOI ( TY Parks), and have been getting some rude nasty comments from people who do that all the time. I was curious how they got so much karma. They also seem proud when they get an infraction. I bet they would not be too happy if they lost a bunch of karma when they receive an infraction. 1 of them dinged me because he got tired of my posting an opposing opinion in the thread. I do not like losing karma to a jerk, (been here a long time, and almost at max.) I could ding him back, because he is very abusive, but his dings have more power than mine, and I do not retaliate anyway.

I do

 

[Lucille]

I gave Casey some karma, because of his cogent post. I'm hoping others will join me.

 

[Fangthane]

have been getting some rude nasty comments from people who do that all the time

a jerk

I thought name-calling was a bad thing. No problem dishing out your own rude, passive-aggressive comments, but it's a whole different story when it comes back around, I see.

I could ding him back, because he is very abusive, but his dings have more power than mine, and I do not retaliate anyway.

So, instead of just reciprocating and being done with it, you've decided to come here playing the poor victim, fishing for some sympathy, probably hoping to get more pals rushing to your defense and dinging me for you. Those 8 little points I took away must have been absolutely precious to you.

 

[Casey Hulse]

Those 8 little points I took away must have been absolutely precious to you.

Yes, they were. I have given neg. before, but I only do it when I am not personally involved, like if I see someone being abusive to another member, esp. a newb. I often forget to give positive feedback when someone posts something I really like, but I have given a bunch.
I saw this post, read the OP, and I think I have it figured out. People are drawn to disasters, tornadoes, car accidents etc, to some people they can't help it, they are "entertained" for a bit. To some, I suppose you are entertaining, so they give you karma.

 

[Fangthane]

I suppose you are entertaining, so they give you karma.

It's one possibility. Or, maybe, it's an expression of appreciation for my being here day after day, actively participating in such a way as to consistently play some part in helping people avoid the scams out there. Many of whom, I might add, I'll never even know. Spending a great deal of time sifting through information that, when brought to light, may expose someone whose shady activities haven't already been noticed. Sometimes, something as simple as comparing some writing samples that expose a sockpuppet account that was trying to bolster a bad person's credibility, and privately handing such information off to those in a position to do the most with it.

There may be some who could vouch for the effort I've put into helping around here, both on and off the main stage. I'm sure they've no interest in doing so, but their silence doesn't negate anything. No, I'm not tooting my own horn. I'm just giving you the reality that may have led to why I have what green blocks I do. You've demonstrated that you're not very fond of letting the reality of a situation change how you choose to perceive it, but there it is.

I've no idea what you may have done around here in the past. Recently, though, you seem to have been a bit scarce. When compared with someone whose sole interest is arguing someone is still admirable, after screwing over at least two people that we know of, I have to say I still feel good about my own contributions - even if your fragile, little feewings were hurt in the process. I do all I can to help as many as I can; you pop up to defend a bad person who you just happened to have on a pedestal. Since I lack the name recognition that you enjoy, I know I won't see much in the way of open support. Be that as it may, I'm still confident in my belief that my own actions have been considerably more "admirable" and helpful than yours. At least, in recent memory.

I have given neg. before, but I only do it when I am not personally involved

Are you suggesting that yours is the right way of using negative karma? That those who give negative karma in the course of situations with which they've involved themselves are inherently wrong for doing so? If so, you may want to tread carefully. Lucille's made it a point to come out and support you, but I can say with 100% certainty that she's done just that, on more than a few occasions. Since her karma hits harder than most, you may want to avoid alienating her. Especially since karma is important enough to you that it's worth bumping a thread up to whine about losing a minuscule chunk of it.

 

[Casey Hulse]

You don't think berating others for their opposing views negates any "good" you feel you are doing here?
You think the vast majority agree with you, but you can't "know" that. You are very vocal, insulting, condescending etc..to me, I do not think you just happen to single me out, you try to "nip it in the bud" so you can feel content that your opinion is correct.

I do not think you are very open minded. You express your opinion, and that's it! you do not want to hear any more about it!!
Anybody thinking about posting on that thread better just say "Ty is wrong, what a scumbag"... Or they post nothing at all.

 

[WebSlave]

Warning: Gentlemen! Please don't make me have to pull over.

 

[Casey Hulse]

Dan, After thinking about it for a bit, I would like to say that I do respect the passion that you have for what you are doing here, and I am certain that there are many others here who feel the same.
I do believe that you should not deal as heavy handed with all of those who disagree with you
I have been here for many years, and have been instrumental in ferreting out some real bad guys preying on our hobby, and have been scammed by some of the "biggies" including Jesse Underhill, Chris Johnson and a few more. I stopped shipping animals about 5 years ago, and have been selling locally and at shows exclusively, so that kind of explains why I do not participate as much to the BOI as I used to, because I am not a player as much (although I did give Christina Wise $100 which I am still upset about).
I still get on KS every month or so, and its forums are dead. Rich created a forum that everyone could participate in without going into debt, and I think it has proven to be the best model that I am aware of.
Anyway, back to my original thought, I think you should give people who disagree with you a little more respect, some of them have earned it here.

Happy 2017'!!​

 

[Fangthane]

Anyway, back to my original thought, I think you should give people who disagree with you a little more respect, some of them have earned it here.

Depends on the nature and severity of the disagreement. If I feel someone is unduly insulting a victim by campaigning for the idea that the person who wronged them is still a swell, admirable fellow, that's a good way to get some negative attention from me - apparently from others, as well. I think you wanted to paint me as a mindless aggressor, yourself as the innocent victim. You had no problem hurling your own insults around. If I'm wrong, surely, you are, too, for your own willingness to sling mud and call me names. Difference is, I'm not going to come here and grub for karma over some hurt feelings. I see you did get your last green block, though, so it clearly worked out for you.

The whole idea of respect is basically meaningless to me. I think expecting respect just amounts to having an overactive sense of entitlement. It's a word that's barely a part of my vocabulary. I think good ideas should be supported; bad ideas should be contested. Ideas should be judged on their own merit, without much consideration for just how little/much previous respect readers may have for whomever put forth the idea.