Bad Guy Scammed by Andrew Michael Popp Las Vegas, NV

[lillyorchid]

Best of luck to you. I look forward to seeing more proof of evidence on this case.

 

[Lucille]

Between this thread and the one Lucille mentioned I have to say that he is one passive/aggressive person.

People like that have such a hard time in life.

Joe, your posts are always so well thought out. And part of me has some empathy for the constant trials and tribulations of Chris.
These turtle do seem a bit smaller than advertised, although no one has answered my question as to whether aside from size can maturity be visually identified in a turtle, so they may be a bit smaller yet they may be mature and able to be bred soon. And, in another thread, it appears he has yet to receive a bargained for turtle.

But I believe that Tails N Scales is innocent of wrongdoing and I believe that those who encounter difficulties should not simply wield a purported sword of justice and willy nilly try to cut off the heads of anyone nearby simply because they are somehow associated with the party one disagrees with.

I agree with some who said that this thread was premature, (unless it was meant to be a bluff from the get go) and that it is basicly unfair to have long conversations about the guilt of the other party while not posting the evidence that one says one has and getting upset when readers decline to find guilt because of the hidden evidence.
I agree with those that say that if one is planning to have a day in court that one shouldn't post everything, but neither should one expect any reader to damn the other party while evidence that may tend to exculpate him remains hidden.

 

[Lucille]

I understand that general information is usually reserved for the discussion forums, but because the crucial point of the disagreement between the parties has to do with size and breeding, I did check out a few sites and would like to include that information here, because it appears that the turtles in question may in fact be breedable:
http://www.redearslider.com/reproduction.html
"The sexual maturity of a RES is mainly based on its size. The rough estimations for captive RES are: 2-4 years for males with a SCL of 4” and 3-5 years for females with a SCL of around 5”."

Please refer to post 26 for measurements of the turtles that the OP alleges were the ones sent to him.

 

[Mac's Morphs]

These turtle do seem a bit smaller than advertised, although no one has answered my question as to whether aside from size can maturity be visually identified in a turtle, so they may be a bit smaller yet they may be mature and able to be bred soon. And, in another thread, it appears he has yet to receive a bargained for turtle.
.

Red ear slider female are mature and ready to breed based of size and not age. Females typically start breeding at 7"-8" and 1000g or heavier. It is not a good idea to try and breed smaller and younger females as it can stunt their growing and also cause them to become egg bound.

Also 5"-6" turtles received when they were suppose to be 7"-8"+ is not a little small, that's 25%+ smaller, that's also not breeding size..Animals that are breeder sized or breeders increase there value significantly. The price difference between a 8" breeder and a 6" sub adult is significant and more then 25%, you are looking at at least 30%-50% less then a breeder as when they reach breeding size they gain significantly more value.

With them being smaller then breeders you are looking at one year minimum to up to 2+ years to get them to breeding size. That means at this point he will miss out on at least one breeding season which was at big loss or potential money he could have made. Also means he needs to dedicate space and time to raising them up as they can not be put into breeding ponds as you want to avoid males harassing or trying to breed them.

 

[Lucille]

Mitchell, I did look at several sites, and they had similar information to what I posted.
If you want to debate breeding, I supposed we should take the conversation to the discussion forums, but my point is that there is credible evidence that shows that the turtle sizes your friend posted are of breakable size.

 

[Lucille]

Breedable size.

 

[Mac's Morphs]

I understand that general information is usually reserved for the discussion forums, but because the crucial point of the disagreement between the parties has to do with size and breeding, I did check out a few sites and would like to include that information here, because it appears that the turtles in question may in fact be breedable:
http://www.redearslider.com/reproduction.html
"The sexual maturity of a RES is mainly based on its size. The rough estimations for captive RES are: 2-4 years for males with a SCL of 4” and 3-5 years for females with a SCL of around 5”."

Please refer to post 26 for measurements of the turtles that the OP alleges were the ones sent to him.

That information is completely incorrect, I have never heard or had a red ear slider female lay eggs at 5". I have 20+ breeding females and every single female did not lay eggs until 7" or larger except for one female who was 6.75" and just a small turtle overall but they eggs weren't even fertile when she laid. Every red ear slider breeder knows it is 7" or larger typically. Of course there are always a chance they may breeder just under 7"

Take the turtles length and use something for common for reptiles, weight. The weight of an average 8" female red ear slider is 1200-1300 grams. The average weight for a 6" female is around 500 grams. I took some pictures of female red ear sliders I have right now. Two females about 6" or a tad bigger both weighted around 500 grams. My 7" female who is also a year older weighs is at 900 grams on the dot. That's almost double turn weight of a 6" female. So Chris was expecting 7"-8" turtles weighing around 900-1300 grams. He got 5"-6" turtles likely weighing about 400-55people grams. So the size may not seem.like a big deal but the length of the turtle is a huge factor as you can tell by the weight alone.

 

[Lucille]

That information is completely incorrect

I checked out 3 more sites, they said 6 inches. I do not believe these turtle sites are simply inventing this information.

http://www.redearedslider.net/breeding-red-eared-sliders-basics/
http://www.second-opinion-doc.com/the-process-of-breeding-red-eared-slider-turtles.html
http://turtletanksetup.com/red-eared-slider/

 

[Mac's Morphs]

I checked out 3 more sites, they said 6 inches. I do not believe these turtle sites are simply inventing this information.

http://www.redearedslider.net/breeding-red-eared-sliders-basics/
http://www.second-opinion-doc.com/the-process-of-breeding-red-eared-slider-turtles.html
http://turtletanksetup.com/red-eared-slider/

Each one of those sites also says 5 years of age. The turtles Chris got are not 5 years. They are 2 years old, maybe a little more

Also I would choose hands in experience of myself and dozens of other people I know over information on random websites. Also 2 of those websites are basically copy and paste information.

Long story short in the whole situstion:

6" does not equal 8"
5" does not equal 6"

Also so those websites say they are breedable. Let's say he keeps them and they do not breed or lay eggs. Then what does that mean?

 

[Mike (The M)]

I checked out 3 more sites, they said 6 inches. I do not believe these turtle sites are simply inventing this information.

http://www.redearedslider.net/breeding-red-eared-sliders-basics/
http://www.second-opinion-doc.com/the-process-of-breeding-red-eared-slider-turtles.html
http://turtletanksetup.com/red-eared-slider/

Lucille,

For what it's worth, 99% of the sites out there on turtles are either compilations of old wives tails, secondhand information, or plain assumption.

To answer your question, RES can be identified as sexable visually. Breedable, no. And while there are anecdotal cases of all species laying eggs below the "average" size, it is prudent to believe that when selling them, they are what the industry would consider a breedable size, meaning sure, maybe there are cases of females laying eggs at six inches. But 8 inches or greater, all females are capable of laying at that size, and that is the standard the turtle hobby goes by.

Add in to the fact that the altered genetics themselves may require a level of expertise, and I'd leave it to those who actually work with them to give a fair assessment of what a breedable size is.

 

[Lucille]

Thank you Mitchell and Mike, I appreciate your voices of experience here.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Since it is relevant to the OP's claim against the accused, discussion of the size aspect seems okay to me.

I have had (a very few) female sliders in the past lay at 6" scl or a touch over, but the bulk did lay at 7" scl and greater lengths. Had a couple not begin until closer to 9"scl , but they were uncommon to do so (rarer for me than a female laying at 6" scl, but YMMV). I usually call a 6" scl female a young adult and I would not personally expect any female to have any realistic chance at laying if under 6" scl unless she had some kind of really weird shape to her body or something (like a 5.75" scl female that has atypical volume or something). Not to say it is impossible under 6" scl, but I would not put any faith (or near-term hope for my projects) in a female RES laying at under 6" scl unless I had already seen her do so. Most of these grow in a fairly rapid fashion, too, if kept warm and fed well. Females that are close are most often good to go the following season. Sometimes even later within a season if they start out borderline at the beginning of it. For my colonies I have partnered out, I stick to these numbers to manage expectations. For the most part, bigger is better.

I have not seen the color of the line strongly relate to its legitimacy since that was mentioned earlier. Had a pale Clive line male prove out as 100% compatible with much brighter, richly, and boldly colored Clive line females. I have seen animals of the same line display and not display clear/strong reticulation and ocelli-like plastron markings. Dead ringers for each other's "look" also may be incompatible. Besides individual variation within a population, people cross RES from all over into their programs when hets are made, so all kinds of superficial variations are likely to pop up. Better to know or follow chain of custody or history than to eyeball the color from my perspective.

 

[Lucille]

This is the paid for tickets

Expedia says many tickets can be cancelled and refunded.

This is not a criminal case. There was a contract for turtles, you got turtles, but they are not what was bargained for. At most you are owed the difference between what was promised and what was received.

Also, the assistant investigator with the Vegas DA office has agreed to sit with me and discuss the matter at 10:30am Wednesday, that is not to say he is going to do anything for me, but if Andrew Popp is still on parole or probation, and with his record, well, I am going to ask this guy very kindly.

An email from the DA's office to me:

"Thank you. Unfortunately, we do not file charges unless a case has been submitted from a local law enforcement office, such as the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department. Mr. Davis must be meeting with someone from their office.

Unless there was criminal activity, contractual issues are strictly a civil matter. We recommend contacting Metro to see if one of their detectives has an appointment with Mr. Davis as he will not be meeting with anyone in our office at this point.

Sincerely,

Clark County District Attorney’s Office"

While it is possible there may be some sort of informal meeting, it is also possible that this is an elaborate hoax designed to bully Popp into a refund.

 

[Mac's Morphs]

Expedia says many tickets can be cancelled and refunded.





An email from the DA's office to me:

"Thank you. Unfortunately, we do not file charges unless a case has been submitted from a local law enforcement office, such as the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department. Mr. Davis must be meeting with someone from their office.

Unless there was criminal activity, contractual issues are strictly a civil matter. We recommend contacting Metro to see if one of their detectives has an appointment with Mr. Davis as he will not be meeting with anyone in our office at this point.

Sincerely,

Clark County District Attorney’s Office"

While it is possible there may be some sort of informal meeting, it is also possible that this is an elaborate hoax designed to bully Popp into a refund.

He is 100% going and going to be taking action against Andrew Popp if possible. This isnt tactic in any way, his flight leaves today.

Also you seem to spend a lot of time on stuff that has no relevance to you. Going out of your way to contact someone in Vegas about a simile threat is quite odd. Don't you have more important or constructive things to do then waste your time with matters between two people who you have no involvement with or no relevance to you?

 

[Mac's Morphs]

unless Chris is just trolling me as well which wouldn't make any sense. He has seeked me for advice and information on this and has told me since last week his plans

 

[Lucille]

between two people who you have no involvement with or no relevance to you?

Yawn.
Whenever I make an unusually good point, the minions criticize my participation or make other personal attacks

 

[Lucille]

plans

As I said, an informal meeting might be possible. The history of the BOI contains many hoaxes, there is nothing wrong with making sure that one is getting real info.

 

[Mac's Morphs]

Yawn.
Whenever I make an unusually good point, the minions criticize my participation or make other personal attacks

What good point did you make? You are making assumptions about something that are suppose to take place tomorrow. You have been very admit that he isn't even going. What are you going to say when he does go and has document or proof? Just say "well I guess he wasn't bluffing"

 

[Lucille]

What good point did you make?

My point is only that Chris has made a big deal about all the proof he has, and has mostly posted personal attacks against Popp and Tails N Scales and very little proof.
It is possible (for the third time) that there is some informal meeting that the DA's office is completely unaware of, but it is also possible that there is no meeting and it is him bluffing. A lot of what he has been throwing around is bluff.
Is he going to file? We'll see.

 

[Chris Kennard]

I find it interesting that Popp has viewed this thread a number of times, like now, without a peep.