Bad Guy Scammed by Andrew Michael Popp Las Vegas, NV

[AllisonLeigh]

I just don't see how this is a cut and dry case like you seem to think it is. You act like if he can't provide the origins of the turtles he's instantly guilty, yet you entered into the agreement without requiring the origins of the turtles. No court is going to hold the seller to something the buyer never asked of them before entering into the deal. As far as the size difference, that would have been the false advertising, however it does say "approx" in his ad, and you say in the text message "It happens, no harm no foul". That essentially forfeited your ability to say it's a contract breaker. I'm no lawyer, but regardless of what he said he'd do after that... you had already admitted it wasn't a big deal and you were ok with it. He could very well turn around and say "After involving my employer and risking my job I didn't feel it appropriate to work with him any longer and therefore retracted my offer".

A part from the "audio tapes" proving that he admitted to scamming you, I see nothing that gives you a case. Of course whether or not those tapes exist is up for debate, and whether or not your interpretation/representation of them is accurate is up to debate as well. Hence why everyone keeps asking to hear them.

The only agreement you had was for turtles that were an approximate size, and were guaranteed to prove out Het. You had no promises of proof of genetic history, so you can't just expect it now because you're questioning his honesty. Your agreement was a refund IF they didn't prove out. That would be years before you can prove that one way or another, and even then Andrew would only need to refund you and he'll have kept to his side of the agreement.

I think you're opening yourself up to some possible counter suit for defamation and libel though, so I bet one way or another you'll "get your day in court".

 

[calebroad]

I just don't see how this is a cut and dry case like you seem to think it is. You act like if he can't provide the origins of the turtles he's instantly guilty, yet you entered into the agreement without requiring the origins of the turtles. No court is going to hold the seller to something the buyer never asked of them before entering into the deal. As far as the size difference, that would have been the false advertising, however it does say "approx" in his ad, and you say in the text message "It happens, no harm no foul". That essentially forfeited your ability to say it's a contract breaker. I'm no lawyer, but regardless of what he said he'd do after that... you had already admitted it wasn't a big deal and you were ok with it. He could very well turn around and say "After involving my employer and risking my job I didn't feel it appropriate to work with him any longer and therefore retracted my offer".

A part from the "audio tapes" proving that he admitted to scamming you, I see nothing that gives you a case. Of course whether or not those tapes exist is up for debate, and whether or not your interpretation/representation of them is accurate is up to debate as well. Hence why everyone keeps asking to hear them.

The only agreement you had was for turtles that were an approximate size, and were guaranteed to prove out Het. You had no promises of proof of genetic history, so you can't just expect it now because you're questioning his honesty. Your agreement was a refund IF they didn't prove out. That would be years before you can prove that one way or another, and even then Andrew would only need to refund you and he'll have kept to his side of the agreement.

I think you're opening yourself up to some possible counter suit for defamation and libel though, so I bet one way or another you'll "get your day in court".

Had a satisfaction guarantee, also he said adults, he posted the size. In the world of puppies, that's size difference is weeks, in the world of turtles, the size difference is many many years.

If you are familiar with hets, you would know that snow and caramel are relatively traceable. He was caught in so many lies. Even the July ad. It's totally indefensible

Andrew Popp is hiding the origin, not because he is an honest seller. Your right, you and I are not attorneys.

I want and deserve my day in court. And will update when I get that day. Yes he should sue me for defamation. Lol, when you google his name, your computer cries out felon.

Also, it may be possible to determine if these turtles have the snow genetics. If so, the contract would be breached tens ways to Sunday

 

[calebroad]

Had a satisfaction guarantee, also he said adults, he posted the size. In the world of puppies, that's size difference is weeks, in the world of turtles, the size difference is many many years.

If you are familiar with hets, you would know that snow and caramel are relatively traceable. He was caught in so many lies. Even the July ad. It's totally indefensible

Andrew Popp is hiding the origin, not because he is an honest seller. Your right, you and I are not attorneys.

I want and deserve my day in court. And will update when I get that day. Yes he should sue me for defamation. Lol, when you google his name, your computer cries out felon.

Also, it may be possible to determine if these turtles have the snow genetics. If so, the contract would be breached tens ways to Sunday

Andrew Popp could come on here right now, right now and say where these came from, and we would know if they are hets or if he is lying.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Had a satisfaction guarantee, also he said adults, he posted the size. In the world of puppies, that's size difference is weeks, in the world of turtles, the size difference is many many years.

If you are familiar with hets, you would know that snow and caramel are relatively traceable. He was caught in so many lies. Even the July ad. It's totally indefensible

Andrew Popp is hiding the origin, not because he is an honest seller. Your right, you and I are not attorneys.

I want and deserve my day in court. And will update when I get that day. Yes he should sue me for defamation. Lol, when you google his name, your computer cries out felon.

Also, it may be possible to determine if these turtles have the snow genetics. If so, the contract would be breached tens ways to Sunday

If kept well fed and in clean and warm water, the temporal difference between the sizes anticipated and the scl measurements at the time of receipt is one year or less in this species when healthy. You were/are certainly disappointed with measurement discrepancies and I can totally understand that, but best not to exaggerate how long it takes sliders to pack on the differences in size (if kept with supportive husbandry for that goal).

 

[calebroad]

If kept well fed and in clean and warm water, the temporal difference between the sizes anticipated and the scl measurements at the time of receipt is one year or less in this species when healthy. You were/are certainly disappointed with measurement discrepancies and I can totally understand that, but best not to exaggerate how long it takes sliders to pack on the differences in size (if kept with supportive husbandry for that goal).

I think the one with the biggest discrepancy is the largest (actual juv right at 6'' or just under) but advertised at 8.5'' adult

Can this turtle go from a appx 6'' juv to a 8.5'' adult in one year or less?

If so that's good, and maybe i should consider holding off my civil actions, just to solidify the het discrepancie along with the others

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

I think the one with the biggest discrepancy is the largest (actual juv right at 6'' or just under) but advertised at 8.5'' adult

Can this turtle go from a appx 6'' juv to a 8.5'' adult in one year or less?

If so that's good, and maybe i should consider holding off my civil actions, just to solidify the het discrepancie along with the others

It can, yes. Keep it warm, clean, and heavily fed if you decide to hold onto it.

There are complications to the statistics of "disproving" a het, as the probability calculation of a series of independent events mostly becomes a matter of confidence (or realistic belief). What we as breeders of morphs end up doing is making a call by our own individual standards. The next hatchling could always be the proving out point for a gene no matter how many hatchlings have been born before it. Using breeding results alone as one's basis, there is always some small non-zero chance of it being a het. Even with a hundred offspring in the bag that say otherwise. As an example, I was once sold a het for ivory sulcata as a male years ago. It ended up being a female (yay for me). Unfortunately, after many hatchlings (being exclusively bred with a male ivory of her original line), no ivories have resulted. I cannot statistically state she is disproven. The chance of her being a het is still there, but it is a rather slim chance in my opinion. As such, I drew a line and consider her to be a non-het for decision-making reasons, but I cannot say she is fully disproven. Being a part of a functional project, though, a project owner must make a call for labeling the status of his/her breeders in a functional sense. Statistically, she could still be a het and my luck with her could be outstandingly terrible. Functionally, I believe, based on her performance, that she is not a het. I can make that kind of call for myself as an owner. I am not sure how it would be perceived in court. If I were an attorney, I would probably stick to the statistics. I have seen freakish results both in my favor and against my favor before from known 100% hets in a variety of morphs across a variety of species. It is fortunate when it plays to my favor and very unfortunate when it does not (but at least it gave me perspective on not expecting a genetic "win" as often as the stats would indicate by calculation alone). As you can imagine, this argument gets a bit sticky.

 

[calebroad]

It can, yes. Keep it warm, clean, and heavily fed if you decide to hold onto it.

There are complications to the statistics of "disproving" a het, as the probability calculation of a series of independent events mostly becomes a matter of confidence (or realistic belief). What we as breeders of morphs end up doing is making a call by our own individual standards. The next hatchling could always be the proving out point for a gene no matter how many hatchlings have been born before it. Using breeding results alone as one's basis, there is always some small non-zero chance of it being a het. Even with a hundred offspring in the bag that say otherwise. As an example, I was once sold a het for ivory sulcata as a male years ago. It ended up being a female (yay for me). Unfortunately, after many hatchlings (being exclusively bred with a male ivory of her original line), no ivories have resulted. I cannot statistically state she is disproven. The chance of her being a het is still there, but it is a rather slim chance in my opinion. As such, I drew a line and consider her to be a non-het for decision-making reasons, but I cannot say she is fully disproven. Being a part of a functional project, though, a project owner must make a call for labeling the status of his/her breeders in a functional sense. Statistically, she could still be a het and my luck with her could be outstandingly terrible. Functionally, I believe, based on her performance, that she is not a het. I can make that kind of call for myself as an owner. I am not sure how it would be perceived in court. If I were an attorney, I would probably stick to the statistics. I have seen freakish results both in my favor and against my favor before from known 100% hets in a variety of morphs across a variety of species. It is fortunate when it plays to my favor and very unfortunate when it does not (but at least it gave me perspective on not expecting a genetic "win" as often as the stats would indicate by calculation alone). As you can imagine, this argument gets a bit sticky.

I see

But if these breed with my male caramel, and they make no caramel or snow, then it's 100% negative. For carsno

Yes?

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

I see

But if these breed with my male caramel, and they make no caramel or snow, then it's 100% negative. For carsno

Yes?

No. Not 100% negative (as in not zero). Approaching zero, but not reaching it (which was my point). Ivory x het ivory has the exact same statistics and mode of inheritance as caramel x het caramel. At some point, we all need to make a call because we have to decide what to do with our animals and how we want to label them to the best of our knowledge. I might someday want to sell off my female "het ivory" that is disproven to me yet not disproven completely by math. Animals take up space, my time, electricity, and food. That all represents cost to me and therefore I might decide something would benefit me more by moving her out in favor of some other animal. In my case, I would tell her story/background and I would price her at the rate of a non-het normal while mentioning there is some ridiculously low chance of her actually being a het, but not everybody does things the way I do. We cannot prove a negative via breeding results because of the remote possibility of bad luck (even with some absurd volume of offspring). That is what is meant by saying the argument gets a bit sticky. You can get enough results to make a call for your own project needs, but there will always be a sliver of chance involved (that things are not as they appear) when only using results of test-breeding events. My sharing of this situation is to illustrate a parallel with the trouble of proving out a het in your slider project. Sticky. Also, it is why I say hets are not for everybody (except maybe for hets a person produces oneself). They should prove out if legitimate. The usually prove out if legitimate. When they do not, the problem becomes a toss-up between the possibility of the animals being non-hets versus the breeder succumbing to a string of exceptionally poor luck. This toss-up sucks. I know.

 

[calebroad]

No. Not 100% negative (as in not zero). Approaching zero, but not reaching it (which was my point). Ivory x het ivory has the exact same statistics and mode of inheritance as caramel x het caramel. At some point, we all need to make a call because we have to decide what to do with our animals and how we want to label them to the best of our knowledge. I might someday want to sell off my female "het ivory" that is disproven to me yet not disproven completely by math. Animals take up space, my time, electricity, and food. That all represents cost to me and therefore I might decide something would benefit me more by moving her out in favor of some other animal. In my case, I would tell her story/background and I would price her at the rate of a non-het normal while mentioning there is some ridiculously low chance of her actually being a het, but not everybody does things the way I do. We cannot prove a negative via breeding results because of the remote possibility of bad luck (even with some absurd volume of offspring). That is what is meant by saying the argument gets a bit sticky. You can get enough results to make a call for your own project needs, but there will always be a sliver of chance involved (that things are not as they appear) when only using results of test-breeding events. My sharing of this situation is to illustrate a parallel with the trouble of proving out a het in your slider project. Sticky. Also, it is why I say hets are not for everybody (except maybe for hets a person produces oneself). They should prove out if legitimate. The usually prove out if legitimate. When they do not, the problem becomes a toss-up between the possibility of the animals being non-hets versus the breeder succumbing to a string of exceptionally poor luck. This toss-up sucks. I know.

Okay, I understand

So let me say this, at this point the defendants are not denying the accusations, but the employer is threatening a counter suit should I continue on. And I found a good firm in Vegas willing to represent me. I have a contract, but even with a judgement, payment is unlikely.

I feel very strong about this and think I can win. But obviously I could lose also. Would you throw more money and continue to pursue this? I would have never deposited $6k in to a strangers account, had he not used that company name and used their website for credibility.

Or would you suck up the loss and try to make the best out of what you got. - these people coming on here saying "I would of" and "I should of", - too late now.

Also, I can't comment in detail, but I can ask, what would others do.

Helpful comments pls

 

[calebroad]

Okay, I understand

So let me say this, at this point the defendants are not denying the accusations, but the employer is threatening a counter suit should I continue on. And I found a good firm in Vegas willing to represent me. I have a contract, but even with a judgement, payment is unlikely.

I feel very strong about this and think I can win. But obviously I could lose also. Would you throw more money and continue to pursue this? I would have never deposited $6k in to a strangers account, had he not used that company name and used their website for credibility.

Or would you suck up the loss and try to make the best out of what you got. - these people coming on here saying "I would of" and "I should of", - too late now.

Also, I can't comment in detail, but I can ask, what would others do.

Helpful comments pls

It seems like the company would provide proof the animals were no longer theirs, or Andrew Popp would disclose the dang origin.

But it's a secret for whatever reason

 

[Chris Kennard]

Okay, I understand

So let me say this, at this point the defendants are not denying the accusations, but the employer is threatening a counter suit should I continue on. And I found a good firm in Vegas willing to represent me. I have a contract, but even with a judgement, payment is unlikely.

I feel very strong about this and think I can win. But obviously I could lose also. Would you throw more money and continue to pursue this? I would have never deposited $6k in to a strangers account, had he not used that company name and used their website for credibility.

Or would you suck up the loss and try to make the best out of what you got. - these people coming on here saying "I would of" and "I should of", - too late now.

Also, I can't comment in detail, but I can ask, what would others do.

Helpful comments pls

Here's a helpful comment. In the future, don't inflate the truth if you want sympathy and don't ever expect to do so on the BOI in the future without being called out on it.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

I cannot say for sure what I would do in your current situation. I would have asked for lineage history and chain of custody background information as well as photos of the animals lined up with a tape or ruler ahead of purchase so that I would not find myself in questionable space after dropping thousands of dollars, but that is of no assistance now. Given that, I cannot say how I would proceed. You have to choose and you have to deal with whatever becomes of that choice.

 

[calebroad]

I cannot say for sure what I would do in your current situation. I would have asked for lineage history and chain of custody background information as well as photos of the animals lined up with a tape or ruler ahead of purchase so that I would not find myself in questionable space after dropping thousands of dollars, but that is of no assistance now. Given that, I cannot say how I would proceed. You have to choose and you have to deal with whatever becomes of that choice.

Okay, I do appreciate this advice Nick

I will continue to consult with the attorney, I'm likely to proceed, but we will see. Andrew sounded professional and we talked about the "dirty" stuff in reptile transactions. - he even gave me advice on a website I was considering that would act as an escrow service to avoid scams.

There is no doubt Andrew Popp is cunning, and he is a smart crook. If the lawyers think the employer can be held accountable. I'll definitely proceed. If not, I will amend the suit and get a judgement on Andrew Popp,

If this BOI is good for anything, it should serve I give right here and right now, Andrew Popp is a crook

 

[calebroad]

Here's a helpful comment. In the future, don't inflate the truth if you want sympathy and don't ever expect to do so on the BOI in the future without being called out on it.

Thanks but no thanks Chris

With your 24 hour postings, and your comment on the other post about unlawful drug use. And the sporadic hostile round-the-clock postings of yours.

I skip your comments.

Best Regards

 

[Fangthane]

Also, I can't comment in detail, but I can ask, what would others do.

I can't even begin to understand why you'd need to ask this. It doesn't seem like the kind of question that someone with all the damning evidence you've claimed to have would even bother asking. If you actually possess these recordings where he supposedly admits to committing fraud by falsifying their genetics, you'd be a fool not to lay down what must surely be a winning hand. The sudden wishy-washy tone doesn't seem to fit with all the bravado that's led up to this point. Can't help wondering if you have some pretty valid reasons for fearing the threat of a counter suit.

 

[Chris Kennard]

Thanks but no thanks Chris

With your 24 hour postings, and your comment on the other post about unlawful drug use. And the sporadic hostile round-the-clock postings of yours.

I skip your comments.

Best Regards

LOL! My kidding on the other post led you to, what conclusion exactly? Please share so you can once again display how easily you distort things to suit your agenda. And please, skip the whiny melodramatics. People who ask incriminating questions that you won't answer, for fear of exposing your ability to inflate the truth, are not harsh, trolling meanies. We're just not as gullible as you hoped we would be.

 

[calebroad]

LOL! My kidding on the other post led you to, what conclusion exactly? Please share so you can once again display how easily you distort things to suit your agenda. And please, skip the whiny melodramatics. People who ask incriminating questions that you won't answer, for fear of exposing your ability to inflate the truth, are not harsh, trolling meanies. We're just not as gullible as you hoped we would be.

Just busting your chops like you been doing me all week.

 

[Bobby Douglass]

I think if his employer decides to file a countersuit against you for libel they have a good chance of winning it. Just because Andrew told you he worked there doesn't mean they're responsible for the personal deals he makes outside of work.

 

[Caledonia]

Why are the mods allowing one person to be pretty rude to another in this thread?

I thought this was supposed to be the respectful side of this site. I have been lurking on this thread for a week now and while there is definitely a lack of info on OP's part, why is someone being allowed to be so darn rude in a place that is supposed to be constructive? It is his right to withhold whatever he wants and give what he chooses.

Shouldn't said person be asked politely to move on? They are literally taking up space in this thread with pretty bickering and frankly turning this into a typical Internet form thread, which I thought the BoI was intended to be beyond.

And let me say, I recognize certain inconsistencies here but at the same time OP is being straight up antagonized. It is slightly embarrassing to see this type of attitude prevailing on a site devoted to information.

I have no dog in this fight and know not a single person on this entire board, just wanted to give an outsider's perspective.

 

[Bobby Douglass]

Not that I disagree with you, but comments about how the site should be run belong at the following link, not the BOI.
FaunaClassifieds Site Assistance & Feedback Forum

Why are the mods allowing one person to be pretty rude to another in this thread?

I thought this was supposed to be the respectful side of this site. I have been lurking on this thread for a week now and while there is definitely a lack of info on OP's part, why is someone being allowed to be so darn rude in a place that is supposed to be constructive? It is his right to withhold whatever he wants and give what he chooses.

Shouldn't said person be asked politely to move on? They are literally taking up space in this thread with pretty bickering and frankly turning this into a typical Internet form thread, which I thought the BoI was intended to be beyond.

And let me say, I recognize certain inconsistencies here but at the same time OP is being straight up antagonized. It is slightly embarrassing to see this type of attitude prevailing on a site devoted to information.

I have no dog in this fight and know not a single person on this entire board, just wanted to give an outsider's perspective.