Inquiry Billy Gangemi, Russian Tortoises, HELP!

[Chris Kennard]

Chris Kennard,

As I dug a hole and buried my daughters pet today, with her crying and crying...I was wondering the very same thing. How could someone make up for selling underweight, worm infested, respiratory distress, and wild caught animals to unsuspecting first time tortoise owners? it is a very good question. Never did I once think that having an original attitude of "cover your ass" instead of "help the new pet owner" would be the reply. Never did I think that not having compassion for the animals, and suggesting that any refund or replacement was better than speaking patiently and respectfully to the consumer (read: pet owner, or your target customers) about how to help the poor animal.

Lydia

You really want to go there, Lydia? Did your daughter do research, buy the animal, send it to the vet etc.? What are you doing to save the millions of "poor animals" around the world? Or is the only one you're concerned about, the ones you payed for without doing any homework on? The phrase, as you so haphazardly put it, "cover your ass", applies to you as well. If your child was disappointed, IT'S YOUR FAULT!

 

[Big Time Reptiles]

This time, the doctor prescribed a tougher regimen of meds. Baytril, Azithromycin, Fortaz shots, Saline shots, and 6 ml of force fed Oxbow per day. He lasted until this morning. Poor thing.

Lydia

First let me say, how very sorry I am to hear about the last little one passing!

I'm familiar with all you mentioned as far as the cocktail in the injection, the Fortaz is Ceftazidime. Again, I'm NOT a Vet, but what the little tortoise was given seems a little much in my opinion.

Billy said he'll give you a refund, take it, and move on, that's really the best advice I can give, dwelling on it, isn't going to bring the tortoises back, or put a smile on your children's face. Chalk it up to experience, and move on to something more positive.

Again, Truly Sorry about those little tortoises, and your loss.

Lynn Peterson
Big Time Reptiles

 

[bcr229]

Billy said he'll give you a refund, take it, and move on, that's really the best advice I can give, dwelling on it, isn't going to bring the tortoises back, or put a smile on your children's face. Chalk it up to experience, and move on to something more positive.

Lynn is right. You're not the first person to unknowingly buy a sick wild-caught critter that dies shortly after an expo, and you won't be the last. With many species you really need to ask the seller whether the critters are captive-bred, farmed, or wild-caught.

 

[DavidBeard]

There is absolutely no excuse these days for ignorance when it comes to not knowing how to care for an animal as common as a Russian Tortoise. Keepers these days have SO many resources when it comes to husbandry practices its not even funny. These are not the dark ages of heat rocks and fish tanks any more.

Take responsibility and LEARN before you buy an animal and then try to play the victim. Are there tons of shady people out there peddling sick imported animals? absolutely. That's still no reason to throw caution to the wind and make impulse purchases for your kid and attempt to get sympathy for your mistakes.

 

[tlmoon]

I'm sorry that the torts were sick and that they died despite your best efforts and care. It sounds like you did everything you could. However, I don't think you can ask for much more than a refund which is what the seller offered.

Unless you are sure you are buying captive bred herps, you need to be prepared for the possibility that they are wild caught. Research ahead of time is key since it can be hard to do at an expo especially if you have a kiddo that has latched onto a new pet. Many, many species are widely captive bred, but others are almost certain to be wild caught, or farmed (ie basically hatched in the wild), and with imports - well you are at the mercy of a string of individuals who may or may not be disclosing their wild caught status. The best thing is do figure out first if CB animals are available and who the reputable sellers are. If it's nearly impossible to find CB versions of the animal you want - rethink that animal as your choice.

Given that you didn't contact the seller right away, and that there was more research you could have done before buying (not criticizing, just pointing out there is a learning curve in this hobby), I don't think demonizing the seller is really your best avenue for a solution.

Losing pets is so hard for kids, but they are resilient (the kids, not the pets! unfortunately). This can be a really good family learning experience on how to do research on a pet and how it can be difficult and how we can overcome those obstacles.

 

[lydiacourtney]

Hi Greg!

Thanks for your reply and your very tactfully offered advice. I appreciate your interest. Please be aware that despite a good deal of research, building and setting up an 8 foot by 2 foot enclosure with the suggested lighting and substrate, taking these torts to the vet twice and doing everything in my power for about a month straight to try to get them healthy, these poor tortoises are still.. well.. 1 is very sick and 1 dead. My research was actually exhaustive. Both of my daughters and I were seeking answers like crazy, so don't think we didn't to our best to educate ourselves.

Please let me be clear. I had NO idea they were wild caught. Is this even legal? I know I wouldn't have bought them had I known, because it's kind of a no brainer that wild animals should stay in the wild, unless they need to be rescued. If this is, indeed, not legal, isn't my question about where they came from valid? If I have accidentally or incidentally become involved in illegal activity, specifically the sale of imported, wild caught Russian Tortoises, isn't it logical that I would want to know this?

The average customer at a reptile convention is like me. Not as educated about herpetology as those who are selling. Do you want for the people who are buying the product to apologize for not knowing about the product, which in this case, is not only a THING but an actual living little guy? Don't you think it would be ideal if the breeders tried to see it from the consumers point of view a little bit? Or, if the customer has questions, concerns, fears, or lacks knowledge, is the best plan to tell them how exhausted you are by all of these silly questions?

With regard to the immediacy of my texts. if you look at the time of the texts, you will see that I didn't send another text for 4 hours after he didn't see my 1:37 PM text. Four hours is a long time to wait when your cute little guy is wheezing away, just inches from Tortoise Valhalla.

So, let me sum up.

Yes, retroactively, i agree that I wish I had been better prepared for this pet, but as Billy said at the table, "No one could have a problem with a tortoise!!"

Yes!! We should have researched more! We researched a lot, but clearly not enough, and I take responsibility for that.

Yes, my tone with Billy was impatient and it probably shouldn't have been. It really pissed me off that the very first thing he did was try to cover his ass, rather than have compassion for the animal and the owners. I see that this annoyance came through.

Yes, you are right, I am not likely to get anything back from Billy aside from another tortoise or my money back, and probably neither of those. My hope in addressing this with him is that a little spark will begin within him and he will see that it isn't ok to accept wild caught animals. I know that in other areas of herpetology he has the greatest respect for the animals, but this right doesn't undo the wrong of the suffering of these tortoises. I grew up on a farm. Hunting, fishing, animal care and butchering was all part of it, so I understand life and death of animals, but I was always taught to respect the animal. I've hand fed more baby bunnies and birds than you can shake a stick at and I have had my arm up to the elbows in a sheep's hoo haw pulling out a lamb. We didn't flush deer out of a woods, but relied on our hunting skill, and gave the strongest a chance at survival. We didn't take from nature anything that we could not put back or put into nature anything that would harm it. I see that there are beginnings of that morality in Billy, (for instance his little possum friend, or his respect for snakes and their handling) but he isn't 100% there yet. To be honest, I think he has great potential but not yet the maturity to make the right moral choices.

I agree that a second opinion is in order, and I really appreciate that Lynn was willing to send me the info. for the vet in Florida and the other medication. I'm planning to contact that vet tomorrow to see what is known about the med combo we are using, and possibly put him in touch with my vet.

I hope none of this comes across as rude... I am certain that no matter what I say in this forum, I am already done for, but to be fair, my concern is really for the animals, and that's where we all should be.

Lydia

 

[lydiacourtney]

Hi Melinda,

Yes, of course you are right. I am so sad to have learned this the hard way. The worst was watching the little guy gasp for air. He didn't deserve any of it.

Lydia

 

[lydiacourtney]

Chris,

Yes, let's go there.

You might be surprised to find out what I do for animals around the world, and how much research I did, but it seems you made up your mind about me already. It's interesting that the purchaser has more responsibility for the terrible practice of the vendor than the vendor himself.

For instance, if you went to McDonalds and they sold you a burger that gave you food poisoning, and then McDonalds said, "well, you knew that our food was unhealthy, so it's your fault." You'd be left thinking.. "yeah, I knew your food might give me gas, but I didn't think i would vomit in the toilet all night.." That's what this is like for me... I knew there would be a learning curve, but I didn't anticipate $500 in veterinary bills, in addition to all of the lights, building enclosures, hides, proper moisture and substrate, etc. and then this heartbreaking downward spiral to death. That was like an ebola burger from McDonalds.

That said, believe me...I am hating myself today more than you can imagine, for allowing myself to be fooled. I was so hopeful and excited about adding two new family members to our home, and I really f-ed it all up. I am guilty and ashamed that I didn't think to ask more questions, and check it out in greater depth prior to purchase. I wish I could have saved his life and I really did not enjoy watching him struggle for air a full 40 years or more prior to his life expectancy. You can bet I won't do that again, and that I will feel the guilt for quite some time.

Is it possible that you are a friend of Billy and that as a result your wish to protect your friend supersedes your concern for the animals? You seem awfully fast to point fingers, and while I have brought up what I feel is a valid point, I can't understand why you are coming at me so hard if you don't have a horse in this race.


Lydia

 

[lydiacourtney]

Lynn,

Again, thank you for the good advice. I'm glad to hear that the Fortaz is the right thing. You are, of course, right, that I should move on to more positive thoughts, and I will try to do this.

It's hard for me not to want to save every animal... I'm sure you get it.

Lydia

 

[lydiacourtney]

Theresa Moon,
(what a great name)

Thanks. Yes, a learning curve is a good way to put it.

Lydia

 

[AppEcto]

My research was actually exhaustive. Both of my daughters and I were seeking answers like crazy, so don't think we didn't to our best to educate ourselves.

Oh please. You immediately follow that up with this:

Please let me be clear. I had NO idea they were wild caught. Is this even legal? I know I wouldn't have bought them had I known, because it's kind of a no brainer that wild animals should stay in the wild, unless they need to be rescued.

Here, try literally the first result that comes up when googling "Russian Tortoise." http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Care-Sheets/Russian-Tortoise/

Here's an excerpt: "Most Russian tortoises are imported into the United States. Compared to the number of imported tortoises, captive production of this species is relatively low. You should assume that most adult or subadult Russian tortoises for sale are wild-caught (imported). Captive-bred babies are rarely raised to adult size and sold at the low prices that these imported Russian tortoises sell for."

From literally the second google result for "Russian tortoise": "Russian tortoises are imported into the U.S. and many other countries on a regular basis, and have been for many years..."

Finally, an excerpt from the third result when googling "Russian tortoise": "When you get your tortoise, it is highly recommended that you take your pet for a check up. Most Russians are wild caught. And while yours may appear to be healthy (click here to learn how to select a "healthy" tortoise) the stress of being brought home and placed in strange surrounding may cause a hidden problem to surface. This is true even with long term wild caught and captive born animals."

How did you miss this in all of your exhaustive research? I searched for caresheets for this species and didn't find one that neglected to mention that most are wild caught.

 

[tlmoon]

Lydia - I know you are upset, but turning this into a crusade against Billy is a bit over the top. And Chris is just posting questions...accusing people of taking sides due to "friends" does not go over well here, and is unfair in this case.

Look, you have a right to be upset and disappointed. Being a relative newcomer to herps, you still have a lot to learn. The WC vs CB thing is a huge thing to know in herps - not knowing about that is a big gap in your knowledge. I'm not criticizing, many of us learn that the hard way. But that is a pretty major thing to not know about.

MANY, many animals are captured in the wild and made into pets. These animals are likely to be sick and have parasites, have feeding difficulties, and not adapt well to captivity. Experienced people who know what they are doing know what to expect and can provide the care needed. Even with expert care, as you've seen, you may still lose the animals. So for the average hobbyist, stick with CB only. It's better for the animal and the owner and the environment.

There are plenty of reasons why there are so many WC animals. People make money catching and selling them. Middlemen making money exporting them to the US and Europe. Importers make money selling them. In a lot of ways it's problematic and not good for the animals. On the other hand, animals that are widely captive bred in great numbers benefit from new blood in breeding programs. Some animals are not CB because it's too difficult or takes too many years to make it cost effective. In many cases, you can go to a random pet store or online and buy a WC animal for a fraction of the price that a CB animal from a breeder will sell for, and therefore there is a market for cheap WC animals.

Illegality only arises if the animal was protected by CITES appendix I or II and shouldn't have been imported, or if it's on the ESA and shouldn't be traded (Lacey act). However, your local state and city may have all sorts of rules that you should know about. Example: you can't have corn snakes in Georgia, or red eared sliders in Oregon. So you need to know your local rules. If you don't know those, more research is in order.

In an ideal world, almost all animals available would be CB and all would be healthy. Sellers would carefully quiz each prospective owner about their preparedness for the animal and the issues you've had would not happen. Buying a sick animal at an expo and being told it's fine is not ok - but, you have to realize in the herp hobby there is a level of caveat emptor that a buyer needs to have. Your experience isn't that far outside the industry norm, sadly. I don't like that either, but that's what it is.

I understand that you were worried about the tort when you were texting Billy, but realistically - you were working with a vet and Billy couldn't diagnose or fix the problem for you. He did respond when he could and offered a replacement or refund. That is actually better than what many sellers would do, when being contacted a month later.

So I guess what I'm saying is that your'e kind of tilting at a windmill here...you are entering into a hobby with many WC/farmed animals and you need to be well informed. Most people are good guys, but not all, and you need to know what you're getting into. And even good guys, by industry standards, may not live up to what you want - and you might have to learn to deal with that. By any means, you have had an unfortunate experience and I hope your next one goes much better.

 

[lydiacourtney]

Theresa,

I think part of the reason that I find Billy so untrustworthy was the process I had to go through to find him. When my daughter looked up the tables at the Repticon site so that she could reach him to ask these questions a week ago, his table was listed under Eastern Exotics. So, we found this company online and they were also pretty unhappy with him, because they didn't know him, and he had "borrowed" their name in order to get a table at Repticon. Luckily, they had done the legwork to find him to request that he stop using their name, and so Repticon was aware of his true identity. I still have no idea what his actual business is called, and he doesn't seem very forthcoming with the name of his business, his number or any other information. That's sketchy, to me.

So, this was strike two, for me, the first being the sick tortoises. My thought was that I would do my best, once I finally was able to track down a number for him, to give him the benefit of the doubt, then the very first thing he wrote was a cover your ass statement and I will admit it was hard to give him the benefit after that.

Thanks for the information about WC vs CB. We really just wanted pet tortoises to love, so it was not on my radar to check the CITES apendix I or II, or the Lacey act or the ESA. I will google those acronyms and thanks for the heads up. My daughter, who volunteers rescuing reptiles and birds of prey at a nature center, was and is under the impression that in Maryland, where we live, wild caught animals are illegal. Had I known, I wouldn't have purchased them. I see that there are some loopholes in these laws, now, and I will be interested to learn more.

-Lydia

 

[lydiacourtney]

Kevin,

Maybe I was being naive to think that I could trust a reptile breeder at Repticon, but I have a very sweet bearded dragon which I purchased from a reputable seller there, previously, and I didn't want to go to Petco, because I have no idea how the reptiles are treated in their breeding facility.

All due respect, Kevin, I think you are criticizing me for more personal reasons than the research I did, and I think you may be overestimating the amount of study a person does before buying a pet. I was hardly irresponsible. The pets had a safe home, with huge enclosures which we researched and as soon as we found ourselves even slightly over our heads, we took them to a vet...how does this make me the irresponsible or liable party?

Considering that they used another business' name in order to get a table, I think that maybe the problem was a case of mistaken reputation. I still do not have an actual business name for the Gangemi operation, although I know that it is a father/son thing, with William Sr and Jr. Do they have a business name? If so, what is it? It seems that when it comes to giving certain information everyone here is pretty hush hush, which just gets my wheels turning.


Lydia

 

[lydiacourtney]

Eastern Exotics fb

Eastern Exotics post attached.

L

 

[Chris Kennard]

Chris,

Yes, let's go there.

You might be surprised to find out what I do for animals around the world, and how much research I did, but it seems you made up your mind about me already. It's interesting that the purchaser has more responsibility for the terrible practice of the vendor than the vendor himself.

For instance, if you went to McDonalds and they sold you a burger that gave you food poisoning, and then McDonalds said, "well, you knew that our food was unhealthy, so it's your fault." You'd be left thinking.. "yeah, I knew your food might give me gas, but I didn't think i would vomit in the toilet all night.." That's what this is like for me... I knew there would be a learning curve, but I didn't anticipate $500 in veterinary bills, in addition to all of the lights, building enclosures, hides, proper moisture and substrate, etc. and then this heartbreaking downward spiral to death. That was like an ebola burger from McDonalds.

That said, believe me...I am hating myself today more than you can imagine, for allowing myself to be fooled. I was so hopeful and excited about adding two new family members to our home, and I really f-ed it all up. I am guilty and ashamed that I didn't think to ask more questions, and check it out in greater depth prior to purchase. I wish I could have saved his life and I really did not enjoy watching him struggle for air a full 40 years or more prior to his life expectancy. You can bet I won't do that again, and that I will feel the guilt for quite some time.

Is it possible that you are a friend of Billy and that as a result your wish to protect your friend supersedes your concern for the animals? You seem awfully fast to point fingers, and while I have brought up what I feel is a valid point, I can't understand why you are coming at me so hard if you don't have a horse in this race.


Lydia

Okay, so you do, according to your first statement here, how much research yo do. Need we examine that? From what I see here, your supposed experience has taught you squat. Your vast experience didn't sway you from buying from an importer, which most experienced herpers know is a crapshoot. Thus making your "responsibility" comment insignificant. I weigh your McDonald's comment right up there with your solicitation of sympathy regarding your kid's attachment to an animal you had for a month without quarantine? Lastly, you took your pet to a vet, unbeknownst to the seller, a day or two (?) after it's arrival, then told him there was a problem a month later? You were so exited about your new "family members", yet waited til their last breath to reach out to the patrons here for advice on how to save a turtle? Your research should have started long before your kids supposedly watched you bury an animal they shouldn't even have had time to handle, what with proper quarantine practices would dictate and such. Just sayin'. For what it's worth, I hate the sympathy card crap when people use kids as their vehicle.

 

[Chris Kennard]

And again, you got the advice you wanted here, you got the options of getting a refund or replacement animals, yet here you are...why?

 

[lydiacourtney]

Vigorous Vitriol

And again, you got the advice you wanted here, you got the options of getting a refund or replacement animals, yet here you are...why?

Mostly defending myself from your vitriol, Chris. Which leads me to ask again, what is your impetus for coming after me, rather than a fraudulent vendor? Your vigor is beyond reason and does detract, as you said, from my purpose, here. Unless you have something functional or helpful to say, I would appreciate it if you would be respectful to the purpose of the forum and bow out.

Lydia

 

[Lucille]

Day 1 is as BillyW said, they both seemed fine and despite seeming like they needed a good meal, were fine.

When you received them, they appeared fine.
Then they became ill. You took them to the vet. (Lydia, could you please scan and post all the vet papers including the findings, weights, and diagnosis?)
A month later, you informed your seller who is still willing to refund.

If you have advice for me, please share.

My advice, when an animal continues to decline after a vet visit, is to seek a second opinion. I would think that in vet circles a second opinion is probably regarded the same was as it often is in the medical world: Not a vote of no confidence but rather asking for a perhaps different perspective that may be of value to the patient.

Even the best seller is not ordinarily a vet, so placing this burden on your seller is not fair in my opinion. He did everything he could which is offer a refund.

fraudulent vendor

I really think that is not fair. The vendor first heard of your turtle woes a month after the sale, and you yourself said they looked fine on arrival which means to me they looked fine on departure from the seller.
You claim that they were underweight (please post weights, diagnosis, etc. from the vet) yet you said they looked fine on arrival.

Please post the vet findings.

 

[tim brophy]

Take the refund he has offered and buy a captive born tortoise from someone else. There are several breeders who sell tortoises here on Fauna that are captive born. They have very good, well written web sites with descriptions on care, maintenance, etc. Buy a captive born baby and move forward. This was a learning experience. You learned and it is over.