Inquiry Billy Gangemi, Russian Tortoises, HELP!

[Andy_G]

When you received them, they appeared fine.
Then they became ill. You took them to the vet. (Lydia, could you please scan and post all the vet papers including the findings, weights, and diagnosis?)
A month later, you informed your seller who is still willing to refund.



My advice, when an animal continues to decline after a vet visit, is to seek a second opinion. I would think that in vet circles a second opinion is probably regarded the same was as it often is in the medical world: Not a vote of no confidence but rather asking for a perhaps different perspective that may be of value to the patient.

Even the best seller is not ordinarily a vet, so placing this burden on your seller is not fair in my opinion. He did everything he could which is offer a refund.


I really think that is not fair. The vendor first heard of your turtle woes a month after the sale, and you yourself said they looked fine on arrival which means to me they looked fine on departure from the seller.
You claim that they were underweight (please post weights, diagnosis, etc. from the vet) yet you said they looked fine on arrival.

Please post the vet findings.

This is an excellent post containing great advice. It could easily be argued that the torts became ill in your care, especially if there was no complaint or issue raised before that one month of time. Be clear that I am not insinuating this, just presenting the thought. If I were to sell someone a seemingly healthy animal (whether that is true or not...at this time there is no concrete proof of the torts being anything but) and it had perished after one month and the buyer had little or no communication with me in between, I would be very suspect as to what happened and hesitant to admit fault. Saying all that, I feel it should be disclosed to the buyer if something is imported or wild caught instead of assuming they know. That to me is a matter of personal ethics, though, and may differ between sellers. After 1 full month the seller is still offering a refund...that's almost unheard of. He is doing the right thing by offering a full refund or replacement, and like it or not, he does not have to disclose the exact source of where these tortoises were imported from or who they were imported through, at least not in my opinion. Although I admire your evident passion, it may be wise to give up the crusade, and perhaps instead accept the refund/replacement and do your very best to educate others moving forward. It would be a much more effective, favourable and admirable method of reaction to this situation.

 

[Big Time Reptiles]

Lydia,
If, or when you get ready to purchase any other tortoises, I would be happy to help. Contact me when ready, and I'll put you in touch with a reputable breeder, that will sell to you at what they would sell them to me for, usually 25% or less.

If this would work for you, I'd be happy to make it happen.

Lynn Peterson
Big Time Reptiles

 

[srsb]

How stunningly unfair, Lydia, to label the vendor with "wildlife smuggler", when you did not bother to do the very least bit of research to show that these turtles are absolutely routinely imported, a fact which Kevin was able to demonstrate is so easy to obtain you almost have to be avoiding the information to not know it.

 

[lydiacourtney]

helpful

Take the refund he has offered and buy a captive born tortoise from someone else. There are several breeders who sell tortoises here on Fauna that are captive born. They have very good, well written web sites with descriptions on care, maintenance, etc. Buy a captive born baby and move forward. This was a learning experience. You learned and it is over.

Good idea.
-Lydia

 

[lydiacourtney]

Thanks.

Lydia,
If, or when you get ready to purchase any other tortoises, I would be happy to help. Contact me when ready, and I'll put you in touch with a reputable breeder, that will sell to you at what they would sell them to me for, usually 25% or less.

If this would work for you, I'd be happy to make it happen.

Lynn Peterson
Big Time Reptiles

Thanks so much, Lynn, I will. I feel like we need to do all we can to see that the second one lives, and then once I am certain that we are clear of any transmittable diseases or that I can quarantine for 6 months, I will send you a pm.

Lydia

 

[lydiacourtney]

How stunningly unfair, Lydia, to label the vendor with "wildlife smuggler", when you did not bother to do the very least bit of research to show that these turtles are absolutely routinely imported, a fact which Kevin was able to demonstrate is so easy to obtain you almost have to be avoiding the information to not know it.

I have explained this earlier in the thread, but when I went to type in "wild caught" as a tag, the only similar option was "wildlife smuggler." That said, I did have questions about wildlife smuggling laws that were thankfully answered earlier in the thread by Rachel:

[INDENT][/INDENT]"Illegality only arises if the animal was protected by CITES appendix I or II and shouldn't have been imported, or if it's on the ESA and shouldn't be traded (Lacey act). However, your local state and city may have all sorts of rules that you should know about. Example: you can't have corn snakes in Georgia, or red eared sliders in Oregon. So you need to know your local rules. If you don't know those, more research is in order."

I don't think that asking questions about smuggling is the same as labeling Billy, although at this point I certainly do suspect something based on the sketchy-ness of his entry into Repticon under the assumed name of another reputable business.

I, too, was stunned by the number of people on this thread who were just a-ok with people pulling animals out of the wild and selling them. That, to me, seems stunningly immoral.

Lydia

 

[bcr229]

My daughter, who volunteers rescuing reptiles and birds of prey at a nature center, was and is under the impression that in Maryland, where we live, wild caught animals are illegal.

Wild-caught native turtles are not legal to keep in Maryland as pets, but wild-caught non-native imports are legal. The DNR site isn't well worded and it does leave the impression that all wild-caught turtles are illegal to keep as pets, which is not the case.
http://dnr.maryland.gov/wildlife/Pages/habitat/waturtles.aspx

Maybe I was being naive to think that I could trust a reptile breeder at Repticon...

Expo promoters typically do not vet vendors, they will rent table space to anyone who pays for it. It is your job as a buyer to research the seller. You can find a good seller, such as the one who sold you your beardie, set up next to a vendor with sick, mite-ridden critters on death's door. Which leads to...

I think part of the reason that I find Billy so untrustworthy was the process I had to go through to find him. When my daughter looked up the tables at the Repticon site so that she could reach him to ask these questions a week ago, his table was listed under Eastern Exotics. So, we found this company online and they were also pretty unhappy with him, because they didn't know him, and he had "borrowed" their name in order to get a table at Repticon. Luckily, they had done the legwork to find him to request that he stop using their name, and so Repticon was aware of his true identity. I still have no idea what his actual business is called, and he doesn't seem very forthcoming with the name of his business, his number or any other information. That's sketchy, to me.

I also find that extremely shady. It blows away the "contact the seller immediately if there is a problem" advice (which of course you should do) since you had no way of knowing who you were really dealing with when you purchased the turtles.

While tables I1-I4 were apparently for Eastern Exotics based on Repticon Baltimore's web site those were the ones Billy Gangemi took, yes? And Eastern Exotics wasn't even vending there that day, yes? If so I'd be really ticked someone was selling sick critters under my business name - which makes me wonder how many other complaints they've received.

 

[lydiacourtney]

This is an excellent post containing great advice. It could easily be argued that the torts became ill in your care, especially if there was no complaint or issue raised before that one month of time. Be clear that I am not insinuating this, just presenting the thought. If I were to sell someone a seemingly healthy animal (whether that is true or not...at this time there is no concrete proof of the torts being anything but) and it had perished after one month and the buyer had little or no communication with me in between, I would be very suspect as to what happened and hesitant to admit fault. Saying all that, I feel it should be disclosed to the buyer if something is imported or wild caught instead of assuming they know. That to me is a matter of personal ethics, though, and may differ between sellers. After 1 full month the seller is still offering a refund...that's almost unheard of. He is doing the right thing by offering a full refund or replacement, and like it or not, he does not have to disclose the exact source of where these tortoises were imported from or who they were imported through, at least not in my opinion. Although I admire your evident passion, it may be wise to give up the crusade, and perhaps instead accept the refund/replacement and do your very best to educate others moving forward. It would be a much more effective, favourable and admirable method of reaction to this situation.

I agree, Andy. If you take a look at post #26, you will see that I am truly more angry with myself than anyone for not asking better questions. I really felt that Repticon was where one went to make sure they were dealing with good breeders, and I was really trying to get a pet from somewhere other than Petco, because of some documentaries I watched on the reptile breeding facilities at those bigger stores. I'm left feeling that I caused this tortoise to be pulled from it's home, stressed to the max, become ill and die. I'm not blaming anyone but myself, and I feel... well.. terrible. Despite the aggression from some on this site, I love animals more than most humans, so i think we are coming from the same place.

The difference, to me, lies in the admission of a moral fault. Should I have researched more and different things? Yes.

Should I have tried to find Billy sooner rather than later? Yes, actually I did try a week earlier, but since the company he went as didn't exist, it took a lot of doing to find him.

Should I know every single thing about tortoises prior to getting one... I'm not sure, especially when it comes to the breeder's job. I would like to think that there are laws in place to protect these animals which would vastly reduce numbers of wild caught animals from being sold. Poor torty.

Should animals be treated as things? is the question I think I was seeking an answer to, here, and it appears that many here, despite their apparent love and passion for the animals, seem to be missing some COMpassion for these reptiles. This has been quite a discouraging find.

You are right, however, that my little crusade will probably accomplish little.
Thanks for the advice.
Lydia

 

[lydiacourtney]

Wild-caught native turtles are not legal to keep in Maryland as pets, but wild-caught non-native imports are legal. The DNR site isn't well worded and it does leave the impression that all wild-caught turtles are illegal to keep as pets, which is not the case.
http://dnr.maryland.gov/wildlife/Pages/habitat/waturtles.aspx

Thank you for this clarification. This is exactly the answer to my prior confusion.

Do you happen to know what the wildlife turtle and snake capture laws are in other states? Are they similar to Maryland or are all states different?


Expo promoters typically do not vet vendors, they will rent table space to anyone who pays for it. It is your job as a buyer to research the seller. You can find a good seller, such as the one who sold you your beardie, set up next to a vendor with sick, mite-ridden critters on death's door. Which leads to...

Lesson learned, thank you.

I also find that extremely shady. It blows away the "contact the seller immediately if there is a problem" advice (which of course you should do) since you had no way of knowing who you were really dealing with when you purchased the turtles.

While tables I1-I4 were apparently for Eastern Exotics based on Repticon Baltimore's web site those were the ones Billy Gangemi took, yes? And Eastern Exotics wasn't even vending there that day, yes? If so I'd be really ticked someone was selling sick critters under my business name - which makes me wonder how many other complaints they've received.

Me too. The driving question for me, since I found out about this bad business practice at Repticon, is why? Why did he and his friend use another business name? Do they have their own business name? Where is their business located? Everyone seemed to think that it was unreasonable for me to ask such questions as where are the rest of the tortoises that came from this batch? Where do you house them? What are their conditions now? Are they alive or no? I know some feel these are unfair questions, but I think under the circumstances they are fair.

 

[lydiacourtney]

fraudulent vendor

When you received them, they appeared fine.
Then they became ill. You took them to the vet. (Lydia, could you please scan and post all the vet papers including the findings, weights, and diagnosis?)
A month later, you informed your seller who is still willing to refund.

My seller was no where to be found. When I asked him for a card he said he didn't have any.



My advice, when an animal continues to decline after a vet visit, is to seek a second opinion. I would think that in vet circles a second opinion is probably regarded the same was as it often is in the medical world: Not a vote of no confidence but rather asking for a perhaps different perspective that may be of value to the patient.
Yes, I feel like a shmuck but my Vet was so highly recommended and he DOES have three of his own, huge Tortoises in the office. (so cool!)

Even the best seller is not ordinarily a vet, so placing this burden on your seller is not fair in my opinion. He did everything he could which is offer a refund.

The burden I place on Billy is a moral one, not a financial one. It is based on the value of small lives, and whether we should be willing to sacrifice them, not for food or survival, but just for entertainment. His view of me as an enemy is just that. His view. I am only his enemy if he is not the friend of the animals he sells. I have been considering meeting him in PA to try to rescue another tortoise to give to the vet until it is better then as an educational tool to the nature center.


I really think that is not fair. The vendor first heard of your turtle woes a month after the sale, and you yourself said they looked fine on arrival which means to me they looked fine on departure from the seller.
You claim that they were underweight (please post weights, diagnosis, etc. from the vet) yet you said they looked fine on arrival.

Please post the vet findings.

Will do. but his handwriting is so terrible you may not be able to read it anyway.
-Lydia

 

[lydiacourtney]

not sure you fully understand.

There is absolutely no excuse these days for ignorance when it comes to not knowing how to care for an animal as common as a Russian Tortoise. Keepers these days have SO many resources when it comes to husbandry practices its not even funny. These are not the dark ages of heat rocks and fish tanks any more.

I feel like I need to come back to this because it was abrupt and unfair to me, in my opinion. I believe that what you may be saying by this is that there is plenty of information on the internet about Tortoises, and you may be suggesting that I didn't take the time to read articles or seek information online. Of course, I did. The problem with this type of research is not how little information is out there, but how MUCH information is out there, and not knowing which conflicting pieces of information are the ones you should believe. If it would make you feel better I can show you my search history so you will understand how frantically I was seeking info. A little less attack and a little more benefit of the doubt might be in order here. I am sure you meet people all the time that inadvertently kill reptiles because they were too dumb to seek info. but that's not me.

Take responsibility and LEARN before you buy an animal and then try to play the victim. Are there tons of shady people out there peddling sick imported animals? absolutely. That's still no reason to throw caution to the wind and make impulse purchases for your kid and attempt to get sympathy for your mistakes.

Also, we did a substantial amount of research on setting up a proper environment and purchased a lot of stuff for their enclosures which I will send in a picture. We made these enclosures ourselves, which was time consuming, and we researched the best full spectrum lighting sources in order to make sure they had plenty of sun vites. We read about research done on lighting at martinreptiles.co.uk


We bought vitamin D and A for their food based on research, we purchased lettuce, which Billy had told us to feed them, and then read that they should have a varied diet, and replaced the lettuce with kale, and other various healthy foods, and when we noticed they were wheezing, we researched whether or not this was normal and then only did we begin to recognize all of the other symptoms, like swollen eyes, bubbly noses, etc. I will re-iterate that you unfairly judged our research which distracted anyone from the real crux of this conversation, and has actually waylaid the information which I hope to receive here. We went WAY above and beyond what most pet owners would do and don't deserve to be criticized in this way.


-Lydia

 

[lydiacourtney]

Vet Bills, etc.

When you received them, they appeared fine.
Then they became ill. You took them to the vet. (Lydia, could you please scan and post all the vet papers including the findings, weights, and diagnosis?)
A month later, you informed your seller who is still willing to refund.



My advice, when an animal continues to decline after a vet visit, is to seek a second opinion. I would think that in vet circles a second opinion is probably regarded the same was as it often is in the medical world: Not a vote of no confidence but rather asking for a perhaps different perspective that may be of value to the patient.

Even the best seller is not ordinarily a vet, so placing this burden on your seller is not fair in my opinion. He did everything he could which is offer a refund.


I really think that is not fair. The vendor first heard of your turtle woes a month after the sale, and you yourself said they looked fine on arrival which means to me they looked fine on departure from the seller.
You claim that they were underweight (please post weights, diagnosis, etc. from the vet) yet you said they looked fine on arrival.

Please post the vet findings.

I apologize that these findings are incomplete. I have 4 of 6 pages and hope to find the other 2 within the next 12 to 24 hours. Taquito, the female, fared much better than Torterra, actually gaining weight between visits, but despite the meds, her runny nose and respiratory illness were continuing and her eyes were sealing shut. After I send the vet records I have I would like to send a picture of one of the enclosures we built. I'm hoping that if we did something wrong in their environment, someone here will be able to tell me, so as to give the still alive Taquito a better survival chance.

Lydia

 

[gila7150]

I, too, was stunned by the number of people on this thread who were just a-ok with people pulling animals out of the wild and selling them. That, to me, seems stunningly immoral.

You do realize that your CB bearded dragon was not created in a petri dish, right? All CB reptiles originally came from wild stock. Bearded dragons have not been legally exported since the 1960's so your CB bearded dragon almost certainly came from bloodlines that were illegally exported.
This seller is being extremely generous by offering you a refund on a 30 day old sale of an imported animal even after being trashed by you. I would venture to say that anyone who knew the first thing about Russian tortoises would assume that an adult tortoise being sold at a Repticon show for what you probably paid for it was certainly WC. It's fine that you are new to the hobby...we all were at some point. It's not fine that you blame others for your ignorance.

 

[lydiacourtney]

Finally.

OK, so... my hope is that now I am finished being cross examined and those members here who have Taquito's best interest at heart can give me some advice. Attached is a picture of Taquito's hand built enclosure. I am concerned that we did something wrong which has caused this sickness, and while we already lost Torterra, maybe you can help me with Taquito. Calling all the nice people!!!

questions:

1. 1.

Is 4x2 feet an appropriate sized enclosure for a tortoise? we made 2 of them and kept them quarantined from one another.

1. 2. is coco-coir, damp but not so you can squeeze water out of it on the underside, and dry on the top, appropriate substrate?

1. 3. Are the heat and UVB lamps either too close or too far away?
2. 4. Are the wooden hide in the corner and the flower pot appropriate and sufficient hides? She never goes in either of them, but prefers to bask on the towel under the light almost all the time.
3. 5. We lined the enclosure with trash bags. Could there be a chemical from the bags making them sick?
4. Are there sufficient dry places? Wet places?
5. Is food accessible enough? (She is not eating)
6. Should she eat everyday?
7. This is to say, there is always food provided, but is it typical for them to take a day off?

thanks for any replies.-Lydia

 

[lydiacourtney]

You do realize that your CB bearded dragon was not created in a petri dish, right? All CB reptiles originally came from wild stock. Bearded dragons have not been legally exported since the 1960's so your CB bearded dragon almost certainly came from bloodlines that were illegally exported.
This seller is being extremely generous by offering you a refund on a 30 day old sale of an imported animal even after being trashed by you. I would venture to say that anyone who knew the first thing about Russian tortoises would assume that an adult tortoise being sold at a Repticon show for what you probably paid for it was certainly WC. It's fine that you are new to the hobby...we all were at some point. It's not fine that you blame others for your ignorance.

No. I didn't know that. My Smaug Lincoln was created in a Petri dish? This is incredible news. He is looking at me at this very minute very smugly as if he knew it the whole time.

I have said this several times already. My purpose in being here is not financial. I will be glad to take a refund, but what I really want is to make sure the remaining animals in the batch are ok. Also, you may notice that now that people have stopped cross examining me, I am feeling safe enough to ask for some advice. Maybe your efforts would be better spent trying to help me learn and solving the problem than trying to make me feel stupid with condescending comments that begin with, "you do REALIZE..." which almost always end with an unspoken (dumbass) in parenthesis at the end. That's not good form. I need help.

Lydia

 

[JCCS]

I'm not holding the name thing against him. Eastern Exotics is a really, really average business name. If you think that any member of the community knows the name of every business out there, you're thinking that through about as well as buying a child a wild caught tortoise. That boring of a name could easily, easily be thought up by two people who had no idea about each other. And if you've ever vended a show, you'd know when you sign up for a table, they ask for a business name. A lot of people's "business names" are very informal and just used as a face. It's highly doubtful he was using it as a "disguise". I know you are looking for any minuscule thing to try and pin on this guy, but stretches of the truth like this and your wildlife smuggler stunt along with trying to pull the sad kid card make you look like a spiteful and petty human being. You bought animals prone to disease, you got sick animals, he offered a refund or replacement a full month after he sold them (probably just to placate you). I'd be ecstatic if I were you. Go get your daughter something that isn't a chelonian as I doubt any child is prepared to be responsible for something that will require care for the next 20+ yrs (at the very least) and stop trying to play the victim when you were just as if not more responsible for your situation as the seller.

 

[Chris Kennard]

OK, so... my hope is that now I am finished being cross examined and those members here who have Taquito's best interest at heart can give me some advice. Attached is a picture of Taquito's hand built enclosure. I am concerned that we did something wrong which has caused this sickness, and while we already lost Torterra, maybe you can help me with Taquito. Calling all the nice people!!!

questions:

1. 1.

Is 4x2 feet an appropriate sized enclosure for a tortoise? we made 2 of them and kept them quarantined from one another.

1. 2. is coco-coir, damp but not so you can squeeze water out of it on the underside, and dry on the top, appropriate substrate?

1. 3. Are the heat and UVB lamps either too close or too far away?
2. 4. Are the wooden hide in the corner and the flower pot appropriate and sufficient hides? She never goes in either of them, but prefers to bask on the towel under the light almost all the time.
3. 5. We lined the enclosure with trash bags. Could there be a chemical from the bags making them sick?
4. Are there sufficient dry places? Wet places?
5. Is food accessible enough? (She is not eating)
6. Should she eat everyday?
7. This is to say, there is always food provided, but is it typical for them to take a day off?

thanks for any replies.-Lydia

There are discussion forums here more suitable for your questions, which should have been asked before you ever bought those animals.

 

[LauraB]

Lydia, perhaps a more appropriate place to seek advice for your husbandry, care and issues is the Turtles & Tortoises Discussion Forum here, linked below.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=605

 

[lydiacourtney]

I I know you are looking for any minuscule thing to try and pin on this guy, but stretches of the truth like this and your wildlife smuggler stunt along with trying to pull the sad kid card make you look like a spiteful and petty human being. You bought animals prone to disease, you got sick animals, he offered a refund or replacement a full month after he sold them (probably just to placate you). I'd be ecstatic if I were you. Go get your daughter something that isn't a chelonian as I doubt any child is prepared to be responsible for something that will require care for the next 20+ yrs (at the very least) and stop trying to play the victim when you were just as if not more responsible for your situation as the seller.

We discussed the purchase for about 4 months prior, and she is a sophomore in High School, not a 9 year old. Additionally, we had already discussed the plan for these guys when she went to college.

I'm glad that you agree that I bought animals prone to disease. This is my point. This guy is selling animals that are sick and that is just poor husbandry. If they arrived one week earlier as he said, HE should have treated them with the meds he suggested to me in our text conversation. Because HE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN that WC animals are prone to disease. Why am I on the hot plate when HE is the one who knowingly turned over these animals with no treatment. If the information is as easy to find as some here like to say, and if it was MY responsibility to know all of this information, then why was it not also HIS responsibility to know all of this and to tell me when I asked. I specifically asked him at the table about substrates, food and if there was anything else we needed to know. He was like, "nope, they are the simplest to take care of. Just get a bag of mulch from home depot and feed them Romaine Lettuce. That's what I do." He didn't mention lights, but luckily my daughter had already researched this and of course researched it in greater detail later, replacing what we had already purchased.

Finally, I don't have to look hard to find something to pin on him, and I am not playing the victim. As I see it, my daughter, who saved her money and quickly fell in love with the tort, is truly a victim in this, and believe me, I am kicking myself in the butt for doing business with him. And, of course, Torterra paid the ultimate price, didn't he? So how many other tortoises have gone without care? You seem unconcerned about this.
-L

 

[JCCS]

Let's use your McD's example from earlier. When you order something off the dollar menu, don't expect to be as happy with the result as if you went to a custom, specialized burger chain. You guys went the cheapest route, slapped together a homemade cage, and expect this guy to do all the work in the world for a tort he's probably selling for $60 and making $20 on in all likelihood. You want caviar service for McD's money and that simply isn't going to happen. With everything you're asking for, you should have gone to a breeder. And yes, sophomores in high school are practically adults, . If you had done any research at all, you would have known what to expect. I think it's wrong that they sell wild caught torts, but you know why they do it? Because people like you keep buying them.