Inquiry Billy Gangemi, Russian Tortoises, HELP!

[marke1]

Then, moving forward, do you suggest to cease medication?

If so, what types of actions would encourage Taquito's immune system to fight the increased volume of parasites due to stress?

it appears your vet put the tortoise on fortaz , baytril , azithromycin , flagyl and panacur , then gave them a vitaminA shot ........... along with tracheal tubes ......... imo , that's a lot to do to a sick , wild caught , stressed tortoise that maybe bordering on kidney or liver failure anyway ............ I think to charge someone 400-500$ for a couple Russian tortoises who are in what he must have seen as critical condition , based on the extent/severity of the treatment , is bordering on robbery ......... imo he should have took a guess at what was the most imminent thing gonna kill them and treated them for that ............ if they improved , go from there , if not try something else , the outcome absolutely couldn't have been any worse , just less expensive ........... i'd stick with what you were told , your 400-500$ committed

 

[marke1]

I know that Torterra was having problems clearing something because of edema on his neck, and his neck skin was peeling. It was so hard to watch.. .

my guess would be this was caused by the vitamin a ........

 

[Chris Kennard]

visit 1: 1-24, fecal done, it was established that they had worms

visit 2: they were too dehydrated to get a fecal done to check for additional parasites.

Fecal done, got it. Your text to Bill..."the doc is trying to figure out what parasites thay have but they are not pooping so no dice on that". Got it. It just doesn't add up.

 

[lydiacourtney]

it appears your vet put the tortoise on fortaz , baytril , azithromycin , flagyl and panacur , then gave them a vitaminA shot ........... along with tracheal tubes ......... imo , that's a lot to do to a sick , wild caught , stressed tortoise that maybe bordering on kidney or liver failure anyway ............ I think to charge someone 400-500$ for a couple Russian tortoises who are in what he must have seen as critical condition , based on the extent/severity of the treatment , is bordering on robbery ......... imo he should have took a guess at what was the most imminent thing gonna kill them and treated them for that ............ if they improved , go from there , if not try something else , the outcome absolutely couldn't have been any worse , just less expensive ........... i'd stick with what you were told , your 400-500$ committed

I think I see. A more moderate approach may have been not only less expensive, but more effective. I can tell you that I didn't feel good about all we were doing to Torterra and had he not died, we would have put him down in 3 more days to save him misery.

 

[marke1]

I would chalk it up to experience , the downside to keeping animals is sometimes there's nothing can be done ..... in a situation like yours , you give them the best chance you can ........ your obviously a caring owner , hopefully your one tortoise makes it , if not , hopefully you take this experience and get another , it was an expensive experience it'd be a shame to waste it if it's something you really would like to be good at .....acclimating wild caught animals is a skill , at least achieving a consistent high success rates is .......... while I don't know billy personally , I've bought animals from him a few times , he seems like a pretty good guy , his perspective is just very different than yours ........

 

[tlmoon]

I’m pretty good at deciphering doctor handwriting so I’ll take a stab at vet handwriting. See Post # 52 for the original.
I think the discussions about disease and treatment are really interesting, but Lydia: I would ask your vet questions rather than going off what people on the internet say. The info you get is great to bring to the vet for questions, but by itself not so great for treatment decisions. Also, mods: if this is straying off topic I apologize – the treatment seems relevant to whether the seller really has fault here. But if you tell me to quit it, I will!

Discharge Instructions page
Procedures performed: “Recheck” (I think)
To the right of that: “(Discussed? Declines?) Hospitalization(?), X rays, Blood panel, Viral testing. Discussed placing a feeding tube (esophagostomy tube). Complications to not eating: include hepatic (lipidosis?), liver/renal/cardiovascular disease.
Home care:
Inject 3ml 50% LRS (I think this is a vet version of IV fluid) subcutaneously every 48 hours.
1. Need to be well hydrated. Syringe feed.
2. Continue with Baytril orally.
3. Azithromycin 40/ml 0.1ml every 48 hours only.
4. Continue ceftazidime (Fortaz) by injection every 72 hours. Had 1 here (?)
5. For neck, silvadene every 12 hours.
Oxbow (____ care ?) 6 ml daily for 7 days, then increase to 9ml.
Order online Lafeber Emerald for herbivores. Good source of Vitamin K and B12. Follow manufacturers directions.

Prognosis:
Unknown – no lab work. Long term 3-12 months. Some may only be controlled. Causes are viral (herpes), bacterial, (___? Recheck? In 7 days). Possibility of losing both.

I don’t know vet stuff all that well so I probably don’t have it all correct. Hope that helps though.

 

[WildRose]

Interesting that parasites are not listed under causes...

Lydia, I am sorry you are going through this, it is awful for anyone with a heart for anumals.

But you were EXTREMELY unfair to Billy - which was repeated pointed out to you only to have you bite those that tried to point it out. Now that you are realizing your own fault and possibly the vets and that it is not Billy's...

I think you owe a much more sincere and complete apology to Billy and a clear and humble (read not defending your actions) retraction of the nasty things you said about him and tagged him as. This is the only fair thing to do for Billy and the only thing that will start to repair the damage you have done to your reputation here in Fauna.

I beleive we are a forgiving group here on Fauna, but only when people take full responsibility and show true remorse. Whether OP or subject of OP, people on here have been given secound chances and done well.

Sorry this has all been such a painful learning curve. But look at all you have learned!!!

 

[Snake-Queen]

I have had some exposure to treating intestinal parasites in reptiles. The vet I brought my animal to was able to observe parasites floating in the fecal sample under a microscope, confirming the presence of them.

Upon confirmation of them, a generic anti-parasite treatment was initiated while a fecal sample was set off to a lab to identify the specific parasites.

This may, I stress the may, be how the OP's vet is proceeding.

I was talking about all the antibiotics prescribed for the RI, not the treatment of the parasites.

 

[JCCS]

Honestly, the only thing you've seemed to accomplish with this thread is ensuring that anyone who reads it will never, ever deal with you. I don't care how you started it, by your second post, you were calling names after a perfectly reasonable response from him. You're an adult child who doesn't want to take responsibility for any of her decisions/actions and doesn't want to hear anything to the contrary. It's sorta sad to watch, honestly.

 

[lydiacourtney]

perspective

I would chalk it up to experience , the downside to keeping animals is sometimes there's nothing can be done ..... in a situation like yours , you give them the best chance you can ........ your obviously a caring owner , hopefully your one tortoise makes it , if not , hopefully you take this experience and get another , it was an expensive experience it'd be a shame to waste it if it's something you really would like to be good at .....acclimating wild caught animals is a skill , at least achieving a consistent high success rates is .......... while I don't know billy personally , I've bought animals from him a few times , he seems like a pretty good guy , his perspective is just very different than yours ........

agreed. By most accounts of those who have bought from him, Billy has done good business, and his original advice, though very simple could have, as I now understand, been the best advice, given that wc torts need a resting period to regain their sense of safety, etc.

Additionally, I think yesterday he may have tried to call me, but I missed the call. This suggests that maybe he has helpful info, which I would appreciate.

 

[lydiacourtney]

name calling

Honestly, the only thing you've seemed to accomplish with this thread is ensuring that anyone who reads it will never, ever deal with you. I don't care how you started it, by your second post, you were calling names after a perfectly reasonable response from him. You're an adult child who doesn't want to take responsibility for any of her decisions/actions and doesn't want to hear anything to the contrary. It's sorta sad to watch, honestly.

To be honest, when I called Billy a butt head, I had no idea that I was dealing with such a group of serious people. If you want me to take responsibility for this, ok. Billy, I'm sorry I called you a butthead. It was what I thought people would find humorous, because of the mildness of the insult (ie: I didn't use the word a&&hole or anything like that) and it was in response to being blocked.

 

[lydiacourtney]

I’m pretty good at deciphering doctor handwriting so I’ll take a stab at vet handwriting. See Post # 52 for the original.
I think the discussions about disease and treatment are really interesting, but Lydia: I would ask your vet questions rather than going off what people on the internet say. The info you get is great to bring to the vet for questions, but by itself not so great for treatment decisions. Also, mods: if this is straying off topic I apologize – the treatment seems relevant to whether the seller really has fault here. But if you tell me to quit it, I will!

Discharge Instructions page
Procedures performed: “Recheck” (I think)
To the right of that: “(Discussed? Declines?) Hospitalization(?), X rays, Blood panel, Viral testing. Discussed placing a feeding tube (esophagostomy tube). Complications to not eating: include hepatic (lipidosis?), liver/renal/cardiovascular disease.
Home care:
Inject 3ml 50% LRS (I think this is a vet version of IV fluid) subcutaneously every 48 hours.
1. Need to be well hydrated. Syringe feed.
2. Continue with Baytril orally.
3. Azithromycin 40/ml 0.1ml every 48 hours only.
4. Continue ceftazidime (Fortaz) by injection every 72 hours. Had 1 here (?)
5. For neck, silvadene every 12 hours.
Oxbow (____ care ?) 6 ml daily for 7 days, then increase to 9ml.
Order online Lafeber Emerald for herbivores. Good source of Vitamin K and B12. Follow manufacturers directions.

Prognosis:
Unknown – no lab work. Long term 3-12 months. Some may only be controlled. Causes are viral (herpes), bacterial, (___? Recheck? In 7 days). Possibility of losing both.

I don’t know vet stuff all that well so I probably don’t have it all correct. Hope that helps though.

1. Thank you for taking the time to clear up his handwriting, which I was unable to read.

2. I agree that the treatment affects whether the seller was at fault. Mishandling a consumer in terms of information/communication is different than fault.

 

[DavidBeard]

I agree with those that have stated that you have only succeeded in pushing people away from wanting to deal with you.....problematic buyer to say the least.

I find it equally humorous that you are asking people to not "attack" you, yet have labeled your thread with such aggressive verbiage as "wildlife smuggler" and have inconsistencies in your identity and your story.

 

[Pasodama]

Poor torts. Circumstances were stacked against them from the start.
WC, flipped, sold to a newbie with limited research/knowledge, over medicated and without any sort of culture, etc., having been conducted (esp. when in an already over compromised state), being given vitamin A without first checking to see if they suffered from vitamin A deficiency, etc.
Plus, who knows if the torts were being given enough fluids/hydration when on antibiotics.

The OP did not, initially, come off in the right way. Calling the seller a name was "off putting".
Also, tagging with "wildlife smuggler" was unjustified. Something else can be, manually, typed in or, if it was truly believed that was the only option (to have "wildlife" in the tag), it should not have been included at all since that tag has the word "smuggler" in it. It is not an absolute necessity, to add a tag or to add more than one tag, either.
Although, from some things stated/asked in this thread, maybe the OP did believe (albeit erroneously), that the seller smuggled the torts.
Unless some behind the scenes things exist, that I am unaware of, I think a better approach would have been to educate rather than solely/simply berate. Mostly due to the OP's very newb status. Just my opinion, nobody has to agree.

I feel most of the onus falls upon a buyer to research, and to educate themselves on, whatever animal species they decide they would like to get/have. As well as researching a seller. This should be done prior to purchase.
However, some things do fall upon the seller's responsibilities (shared or sole) as well.
In this case, I can see where things have, or may have, gone wrong on both sides.

The seller did offer a refund which is great and is about all that can be done "after the fact". Even commendable to offer a refund when it is one month after sale.
Although it appears there may be an extenuating circumstance, or two, in buyer's favor.
Whether the seller follows through, or not, remains to be seen.

That said, I would like to know if the seller actually stated the following (according to OP), with regard to tort care, and if it was all that was said re. care:
"They are the simplest to take care of. Just get a bag of mulch from home depot and feed them Romaine Lettuce".
If this is true, then it would be better for the seller to refrain from giving care advice rather than give out misinformation &/or info that is lacking in its details.

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[LauraB]

That said, I would like to know if the seller actually stated the following (according to OP), with regard to tort care, and if it was all that was said re. care:
"They are the simplest to take care of. Just get a bag of mulch from home depot and feed them Romaine Lettuce".

Yeah, that would be good, Debra. However, I highly doubt the seller would ever admit to saying that, and the OP would never back off from her claim that he did say that. I doubt we will ever know. I know which one I would not want to deal with, however, lol.

 

[Pasodama]

Yeah, that would be good, Debra. However, I highly doubt the seller would ever admit to saying that, and the OP would never back off from her claim that he did say that. I doubt we will ever know. I know which one I would not want to deal with, however, lol.

You are, of course, correct.
We will never really know.

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[Chris Kennard]

So, I'll ask again bill. Where's the refund? Has she made arrangements to collect? Quite frankly, I would send half. In the eyes of the BOI, it would be a great and noble move, as well as lucrative in the future. Going forward, avoid this site, by telling people exactly what they're getting. I won't be as nice if another negative post pops up on you. Do the right thing, even if it's wrong, which it will be here. Don't give problem children the satisfaction of ruining a comeback. Prove your worth. It willI be remembered HERE that you went an extra mile that you didn't have to.

 

[caffeinecynic]

So, I'll ask again bill. Where's the refund? Has she made arrangements to collect? Quite frankly, I would send half. In the eyes of the BOI, it would be a great and noble move, as well as lucrative in the future. Going forward, avoid this site, by telling people exactly what they're getting. I won't be as nice if another negative post pops up on you. Do the right thing, even if it's wrong, which it will be here. Don't give problem children the satisfaction of ruining a comeback. Prove your worth. It willI be remembered HERE that you went an extra mile that you didn't have to.

If?

Though the OP has presented herself in a very unappealing light, the fact that there is at least one other instance of this individual selling ill turtles makes this one more suspect to me.

 

[Pasodama]

If?

Though the OP has presented herself in a very unappealing light, the fact that there is at least one other instance of this individual selling ill turtles makes this one more suspect to me.

True. A thread I remembered earlier on. Also the primary reason I stated "Whether the seller follows through, or not, remains to be seen".
Unless something else occurred, behind the scenes, I believe (don't feel like looking, again, right now) it was left unresolved in that other thread. In that thread, notifying the seller was, also, a ~lot~ sooner than in this one.

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[Lucille]

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=569467&highlight=potterj