Info Pat Kline - neutral review

[sorraia]

aka snared99, Dart Frog Depot, and Luxurious Leopards

I was originally not going to post a review here, but after his latest message to me, I decided to go ahead. This review is neither positive nor negative, merely informational for you to draw your own opinions from. After his treatment of me (even prior to the Facebook review I left) I had no intention of doing further business with him, but I do not believe it is my place to tell others what to do, so you are welcome to draw your own conclusions.

On August 16 I sent a message to the Dart Frog Depot Facebook page inquiring about purchasing some frogs and toads. Since I work weekdays, and I am unfamiliar with the shipping process of amphibians (thus don't know if it differs from reptiles or not), I inquired about having the animals shipped to my dad or held for pick up. The intention here being, if that was an acceptable option, I'd pick up the animals after work. The seller (Pat Kline) replied stating it was no problem. I looked up the nearest hubs, both to my place of work and to my home, and decided pick up from my dad's house would be easier (closest Fedex hub to work was 30 minutes out of the way without traffic, or 40 minutes out of the way from home, again without traffic, both of which would have added more time on the road). I also felt more comfortable having someone I know hold the animals, instead of leaving them at a service center under who knows what supervision. At no time did the seller indicate there would be a problem with this, so I decided to proceed with the order.

The animals arrived at my dad's house on Friday morning. I never received the tracking number, so I don't know the exact time they did arrive. The FedEx employee did not knock on my dad's door, so he found the animals sitting outside when he took his dogs out (I understand the seller does not have control over the FedEx employees). This was around 10:30am, so I don't expect they were there for too long. He called me immediately to inform me, and I asked him to check on the animals. He said they looked fine, without actually taking them out of their cups. I got off work as soon as I could and picked up the animals at about 4pm. I looked them over before getting back in the car to get home. Everyone looked ok from the cursory look over, though I did note one frog appeared to have its leg "stuck" to the side of the cup. I thought this weird, but wanted to get them home asap so I didn't spend any more time on it at that time. By the time I got home it was around 5 pm, and I immediately pulled all the animals out to get them set up and give them a good look over. At this time I was able to confirm the one reed frog was indeed dead, though the others looked good.

In an attempt to maintain good communication, I informed the seller of this single death. I made no accusations, nor did I even ask about any compensation. I was not aware if he had an arrive alive guarantee or not, and was informing him as what I thought was my due diligence as a customer. His first response back was the accusation I hadn't moved the animals until "late night". Even taking time zones into account, it was hardly "late night", mid-evening more like. He then proceeded to essentially blame me for the death of the frog, because I had not removed them from the cups soon enough. This was my entire point in inquiring about shipping in the first place, and having the animals held because I was going to be at work! I even stated my work schedule in that initial message. I had never had frogs shipped to me before, so I was relying on him to provide me with the information I needed to know. If there was going to be a concern with the animal being held, if the frogs were going to be in danger from sitting in their cups, he should have let me know upon this initial inquiry. Instead I was told it was "no problem".

Now at this point I am not going to place full blame on the seller for the death of this frog, because sometimes things happen! However I do believe he shares partial responsibility in the matter since he had not fully informed me of the procedures that should be followed in shipping and receiving frogs and toads. To my disappointed, full blame was placed on me, and no attempts were made to rectify the situation. Here is where I decided to place a 3 star review on his Facebook page, I was otherwise going to place a 4 star review (or maybe even 5 stars if his response my notification about the dead frog was above and beyond). For the record, Facebook grades 3 stars as a "good review", I found this out when placing the review and the words popped up as I clicked the stars. I made it clear in the text portion that I was happy with the animals and how they were packed, and lowered my review based on the customer care (or lack thereof). I was under the impression frogs sold at conventions sit in their cups for days at a time, and without any other information provided to me by the seller, I did not realize there was a problem with my frogs sitting in their cups through the work day until I could get them home. Had I been informed otherwise, I would have at least postponed ordering until someone would be home to receive the animals directly, but unfortunately for that frog I was not given that information. Pat apparently took quite the offense to my review and sent me a rude message in response to it, at which point I blocked his page from messaging me any further.

To be crystal clear, I am happy with the animals I received, though I am disappointed with the one dead frog. All other animals are still alive and looking great. I think the animals were very well packed (based on my limited knowledge of shipping live animals). I was concerned the box was NOT marked "live animals" (perhaps this is why FedEx left the package outside instead of knocking on the door?), but I was otherwise happy and did not mention this concern to the seller. My discontent is based purely on customer care. In no way do I want to push people in one direction or another when deciding to deal with Pat. There are a lot of good reviews out there, so he's clearly done very well for many other people. This post is merely informational, so others can see experiences from all levels of the spectrum. In my opinion, more experienced buyers should deal with Pat, since in my experience there was some assumption on his part as to my understanding and knowledge of this process. Giving me the benefit of the doubt and offering me that additional information, even if it was "just in case" and I already knew it, potentially could have saved that frog's life, my dissatisfaction, and Pat's perfect 5 star review on his Facebook page.

Screen shots of this conversation and my review to follow.

 

[sorraia]

Additional screen shots of conversation.

 

[sorraia]

Final screen shots of conversation.

 

[sorraia]

Screen shots of my review to his Facebook page.

 

[Lucille]

you are welcome to draw your own conclusions.

My conclusion: Unless you specifically tell a seller that you know nothing about the care of the critters you are ordering I think they may assume that you know the basics about the critters you are ordering. And you stated that you already have amphibians, and told him you are a biologist.
Which means that delivery or pickup, he likely assumed that you knew that frogs should not sit around in cups and should be unpacked as quickly as possible.
You have posts here from as far back as 2013 which means you are not a total newbie. Research on your part might have showed you that you should not have let these fragile frogs sit around and that you should have made arrangements for your Dad to unpack them.
I don't think Pat is responsible here.

I do think boxes should be marked live animal.

 

[sorraia]

My conclusion: Unless you specifically tell a seller that you know nothing about the care of the critters you are ordering I think they may assume that you know the basics about the critters you are ordering. And you stated that you already have amphibians, and told him you are a biologist.

1) Stated I had toads and frogs AFTER Pat said "no problem" to having the animals held for pickup or delivered to someone else.

2) If that's the conclusion he drew from that mention, then that's an ASSUMPTION on his part. I assumed the frogs would be ok in their cups until I got them home after I got off work, based on his statement of "no problem". SO.... why is his assumption ok but mine is not?

3) Since when does "biologist" mean I know everything there is to know about shipping or caring for animals? Biology is a very large field....

Which means that delivery or pickup, he likely assumed that you knew that frogs should not sit around in cups and should be unpacked as quickly as possible.

Again... he assumed. Why is his assumption ok, but mine is not? Why does he bear absolutely no responsibility in this after making his own assumptions?

You have posts here from as far back as 2013 which means you are not a total newbie. Research on your part might have showed you that you should not have let these fragile frogs sit around and that you should have made arrangements for your Dad to unpack them.

"Research" is limited. You can ask ten people and get ten different answers. I try to do as much of my own research as possible, and doing such led me to the belief, again also based on what the seller told me, that the frogs would be fine. Furthermore, my posts going back to 2013 are in regards to REPTILES, not amphibians. Amphibians are new additions to my collection as of THIS YEAR, therefore in regards to amphibians, I very much AM a newbie. Unless you're trying to say that experience with reptiles translates to experience with amphibians?

Pat made his own mistaken assumptions as you point out. Why does full responsibility fall on me, and not one him? As you can see from my post and screen shots, I do not put full blame on Pat, but I do believe he shares some of that responsibility. This is exactly what I expected to happen when I posted, and nice to know I was right. It is perfectly ok for the "big names" to make assumptions, and they are let off the hook when something goes wrong. No responsibility on them. Instead, the "no name", such as myself, bears full responsibility in anything that goes wrong. Let this be further warning to anyone reading this thread and making considerations in dealing with other people.

 

[sorraia]

Here are my posts going back to 2013. Three reviews regarding transactions for ball pythons, all three from 2013, and then nothing until this thread. So if this means I'm so experienced I should have known better, then I guess the blame does fall on Pat, since ball pythons would have been perfectly fine sitting in a box all day, as long as the temperature was acceptable. Obviously that's not the case. I'm just demonstrating how ridiculous it is to make assumptions.

 

[Lucille]

It is perfectly ok for the "big names" to make assumptions, and they are let off the hook when something goes wrong. No responsibility on them. Instead, the "no name", such as myself, bears full responsibility in anything that goes wrong. Let this be further warning to anyone reading this thread and making considerations in dealing with other people.

Sister, don't welcome me to draw my own conclusions and then slam me when I do so. You should have researched frog care better and you are trying to put this frog's death on Pat, and my conclusion is that is unjust.

 

[sorraia]

Sister, don't welcome me to draw my own conclusions and then slam me when I do so. You should have researched frog care better and you are trying to put this frog's death on Pat, and my conclusion is that is unjust.

So welcoming you to make your own conclusions also means I can't offer my own refute to your conclusions? Or to clarify some comments you made?

And this isn't about frog care, it is about frog shipment. But like you pointed out so much, its ok for a big name seller like Pat to make assumptions about the buyer, and not provide full information, even when ASKED, but it isn't ok for a nobody like me to to take the seller's word for it. Got it.

 

[MichaelS]

I ordered 3 albino bullfrogs from Pat a couple months ago. I watched tracking and was there to receive them. I unpacked them right away. They were in great shape.

Had I let them set out until my dad stumbled on them and then unpacked them more than 6 hours later I would have not been surprised if their would have been problems. I've always had great service and great communication
from Pat.

 

[Serafim]

how long were the frogs actually in the container was this overnight shipping?

 

[AppEcto]

You should have researched frog care better...

Since you apparently know more about frogs (since you're judging someone else's knowledge), please inform us how sitting in a deli cup for a few hours killed this frog. Why did it only kill one and not the others?

 

[sorraia]

I ordered 3 albino bullfrogs from Pat a couple months ago. I watched tracking and was there to receive them. I unpacked them right away. They were in great shape.

Had I let them set out until my dad stumbled on them and then unpacked them more than 6 hours later I would have not been surprised if their would have been problems. I've always had great service and great communication
from Pat.

Which is exactly what Pat should have told me instead of saying "No problem" when I said I would be working and asked about the package being held for shipping or by another person. Also Pat did not give me a tracking number to watch, as you can see from the screen shots I shared.

how long were the frogs actually in the container was this overnight shipping?

Overnight shipping, but I don't know when they were placed in the cups or delivered to FedEx. Pat did not give me the tracking number.

 

[sorraia]

Since you apparently know more about frogs (since you're judging someone else's knowledge), please inform us how sitting in a deli cup for a few hours killed this frog. Why did it only kill one and not the others?

Thank you, and this is a good point, and something I've pondered on as well (though have not included in my information). The remaining animals (7 other tree frogs, 1 pacman, and 4 toads) are doing great.

 

[sorraia]

Which is exactly what Pat should have told me instead of saying "No problem" when I said I would be working and asked about the package being held for shipping or by another person. Also Pat did not give me a tracking number to watch, as you can see from the screen shots I shared.

*Held for pickup

 

[senusenu]

Giving me the benefit of the doubt and offering me that additional information, even if it was "just in case" and I already knew it, potentially could have saved that frog's life, my dissatisfaction, and Pat's perfect 5 star review on his Facebook page.

Why is he to blame for your lack of forethought?

Every seller I have made a purchase from has been more than happy to answer my questions if I asked them. Did you make any effort to inquire? Why is it a terrible assumption on his part to think you had at least some basic understanding of shipping a critter and not to leave it sitting in a deli cup?

Did you tell him when you had it shipped to your father's house that the animals were going to be sitting, waiting, all day? He makes it clear that he thought you shipping it to a person meant they were going to be removed from the box sooner.

It seems to be your lack of initiative here, your lack of asking pertinent questions.

I would never leave an animal sitting in a deli cup for god knows how long (depending on when he packed them the day prior, by the time you unboxed them, they would have been in those cups for anywhere from ~18 hours to ~24 hours)- no food or water, no temperature or humidity regulation, no one to check them properly the moment they arrived to insure they were okay.

There is no way to know whether it died in transit, or died sitting in that box after it arrived. From the sounds of it, they were given only a cursory glance, by someone who has little to no knowledge of their care. They could have at least, at the least, been transferred into sterilite tubs with water and clean paper towels.

When you didn't receive the tracking information, why didn't you contact him and ask again for it? Do something, anything, to take some responsibility.

I am not surprised that he would put you on a do not sell to list.

As for why one could die and the others be okay; all animals experience and react to stress differently, even under the same conditions. Some are just weaker, or more prone to stress in general, regardless of any precautions taken. This occurs in mammals, reptiles, and fish as well, it is not remotely unique in this situation.

I find it far more interesting and concerning that you fob all responsibility onto the seller, and that your justification is "he didn't assume I needed my hand held." If someone came to me, telling me they have XYZ critters already and were a biologist, it would be pretty damned reasonable to expect them to have some knowledge already, or to ask questions to fill in the gaps of what they didn't know.

I will fault the seller for not providing tracking as promised, and for not appropriately labeling the box as live animals, but I will fault you far more for the reasons outlined above. And no, these are not equal faults.

 

[senusenu]

I've sent a link of this thread to the seller.

Also, just so you know, you're required to use your full, real name on the BOI. Is your name Nicole Housel, or Nicole Vivian?

 

[sorraia]

Why is he to blame for your lack of forethought?

Every seller I have made a purchase from has been more than happy to answer my questions if I asked them. Did you make any effort to inquire? Why is it a terrible assumption on his part to think you had at least some basic understanding of shipping a critter and not to leave it sitting in a deli cup?

Did you tell him when you had it shipped to your father's house that the animals were going to be sitting, waiting, all day? He makes it clear that he thought you shipping it to a person meant they were going to be removed from the box sooner.

It seems to be your lack of initiative here, your lack of asking pertinent questions.

As I have already stated in my original reply, as well as in the screen shots, I did ask. I stated I would be working, and asked about having the package held for pick up or sent to another problem. Don't you think the question about having a package held for pick up would have indicated the animals would NOT be immediately removed? I did ask, it was not a lack of initiative, it was misplaced trust that the seller would provide me with full answers to my questions given the information provided (i.e. I work weekdays). Lesson learned, don't trust any sellers, no matter their reputation, because they're probably holding out on you.

I would never leave an animal sitting in a deli cup for god knows how long (depending on when he packed them the day prior, by the time you unboxed them, they would have been in those cups for anywhere from ~18 hours to ~24 hours)- no food or water, no temperature or humidity regulation, no one to check them properly the moment they arrived to insure they were okay.

Animals aren't even fed in the first 24 hours after shipment (with few exceptions) due to stress. Why is food a concern here when taking that into consideration? And as you can see from my review, I was under the mistaken understanding that frogs can sit in those cups, considering all the numerous conventions out there where I've seen frogs sitting in cups. Just because YOU never would do something doesn't mean everyone else knows that information. You've been around for how long? And you never made a mistake or had a misunderstanding? I wish I were that perfect. Sorry I'm not.

There is no way to know whether it died in transit, or died sitting in that box after it arrived. From the sounds of it, they were given only a cursory glance, by someone who has little to no knowledge of their care. They could have at least, at the least, been transferred into sterilite tubs with water and clean paper towels.

And it would have been even worse had the animals been held for pick up, which again the seller said "no problem" to. But that doesn't matter. He's got the big name so he's blameless in everything.

When you didn't receive the tracking information, why didn't you contact him and ask again for it? Do something, anything, to take some responsibility.

Oops, made another assumption here - I assumed an email would be coming since he had my email address. But since I'm the only one who is responsible for assumptions, that's a grievous sin.

I am not surprised that he would put you on a do not sell to list.

Is that really supposed to bother me? Why would I want to do business again with someone like this?

As for why one could die and the others be okay; all animals experience and react to stress differently, even under the same conditions. Some are just weaker, or more prone to stress in general, regardless of any precautions taken. This occurs in mammals, reptiles, and fish as well, it is not remotely unique in this situation.

I find it far more interesting and concerning that you fob all responsibility onto the seller, and that your justification is "he didn't assume I needed my hand held." If someone came to me, telling me they have XYZ critters already and were a biologist, it would be pretty damned reasonable to expect them to have some knowledge already, or to ask questions to fill in the gaps of what they didn't know.

Actually your interpretation here is quite wrong. I have not "fobbed" all responsibility. In fact, multiple times I have said "shared responsibility". That means BOTH of us have some blame in this situation. I'll acknowledge where I went wrong but I also refuse to believe the seller had no wrong in this. It is interesting to me how people are SO quick to ignore those faults on the big name, while placing practically all blame on the nobody, and ignoring any redeeming qualities, such as where the nobody DOES accept responsibility. As for having xyz critters.... that doesn't mean the buyer knows a damned thing about shipping. Same with being a biologist. And as stated previously, biology is a very large field. These are again assumptions on the sellers part, but because he has a big name, it doesn't matter. I'd reason a bet that if the roles were reversed and I had pulled the same stunts that Pat did, I'd still be the one on the chopping block.

 

[sorraia]

I've sent a link of this thread to the seller.

Also, just so you know, you're required to use your full, real name on the BOI. Is your name Nicole Housel, or Nicole Vivian?

Are you a mod too?

 

[senusenu]

Don't you think the question about having a package held for pick up would have indicated the animals would NOT be immediately removed? I did ask, it was not a lack of initiative, it was misplaced trust that the seller would provide me with full answers to my questions given the information provided (i.e. I work weekdays). Lesson learned, don't trust any sellers, no matter their reputation, because they're probably holding out on you.

When you decided to send them to a person instead of being held at a hub, it was reasonable to think that said person would be able to give them some care or remove them. Many sellers wouldn't agree to shipping if an animal is going to be sitting at the hub for that long either, due to their live arrival gaurantees generally only applying for the first hour immediately following the first delivery attempt or arrival at the hub.

Animals aren't even fed in the first 24 hours after shipment (with few exceptions) due to stress. Why is food a concern here when taking that into consideration? And as you can see from my review, I was under the mistaken understanding that frogs can sit in those cups, considering all the numerous conventions out there where I've seen frogs sitting in cups.

It was a general list of conditions, not an expectation. Whether or not to feed an insect or fruit eating animal food soon after moving them into their new enclosure is going to depend on a lot of things. I have snakes, which would clearly not even attempt to eat on the first day (or even first couple of weeks). Other animals with faster metabolisms will have other requirements.

Regardless, you have glossed over the necessity of water, for an amphibian, even if it is nothing more than a gentle spray to keep humidity up.

The frogs may not be sitting in cups for that long with no food, they're probably perfectly fine in that situation. They will still need water.

It isn't about perfection, stop it with that strawman nonsense. It's about common sense and knowing even basic care for a critter type you apparently already own.

He's got the big name so he's blameless in everything.
...
It is interesting to me how people are SO quick to ignore those faults on the big name, while placing practically all blame on the nobody, and ignoring any redeeming qualities, such as where the nobody DOES accept responsibility.

Sorry, no idea who this person is. Never heard of them before. Also, there's plenty of "big names" on this board who get called to task.

I assumed an email would be coming since he had my email address. But since I'm the only one who is responsible for assumptions, that's a grievous sin.

He should have sent the tracking information. That's not under dispute. Did you request it again once you realized he hadn't sent it? The persecution complex is quite unnecessary.

As for having xyz critters.... that doesn't mean the buyer knows a damned thing about shipping. Same with being a biologist. And as stated previously, biology is a very large field.

Nobody says you should know literally everything, in the history of ever. Common sense should tell you that amphibians are more sensitive. It should also tell you that leaving an animal sitting in a box for that amount of time can be very unhealthy.


In your own screenshots, he says that by sending it to your father's house, he thought they would be removed from the cups sooner. He also, albeit very briefly, explains to you that animals do get care during shows. (Apparently this classifies as a "tantrum" to you.)

No seller is going to replace a dead animal that was left sitting in a deli cup for that amount of time.

Are you a mod too?

Nope, but feel free to alert one if you wish.

It's considered good manners to invite the seller to come defend themselves and give their side of the story. Generally, Lucille does that before anyone else, but as she didn't state she did (that I recall at least), I did so.

As to your name- that is a requirement of the website itself.

Rules for Posting on the BOI <-- REQUIRED READING!! (updated 12/30/09)

FULL NAMES are required for each post you make on the BOI. Failure to comply with this rule will subject your post to the probabilty of being deleted.