Bad Guy Evan Stahl - Sent Me Sick Pine Snakes

[Lucille]

This seems to be the timeline, please add to it or correct if the facts differ:

August 24, OP receives snakes and says they are perfect, says he fed new snakes after 1 week and weekly thereafter
September 7 male regurgitated meal
September 14 male was fed again but reportedly did not regurge
September 19 male reportedly died
September 19 OP notifies Evan who advises Flagyl, OP does not start Flagyl until over 5 weeks later
September 24 female regurges, OP continues to feed but female allegedly does not look good
October 18 OP reports that he contacted Evan
November 1 OP says he has now started giving Flagyl

 

[Ed Clark]

just a clarification. The flagyl that was recommended is NOT for parasites. Flagyl (metronidazole) is an excellent medication for anaerobic bacteria (most intestinal bacteria). When the temps are not perfect or the meal is too large and an animal goes into a regurge cycle that you can not break, a dose of flagyl will reduce the concentration of intestinal flora and hopefully settle the animal's gut.

This is correct,I have used flagyl for bacteria overloads with succes.

 

[Snake-Queen]

In snakes the use may be different, but I've never treated snakes with it only bearded dragons and in most cases, it is used to treat intestinal parasites; which is why I stated as such.

 

[WebSlave]

Back in my corn snake buying days, it was not unusual to get some snakes in that would seemingly have a regurge problem right off the bat. The usual suspect was Entamoeba invadens, and the usual treatment was a dose of Flagyl (metronidazole). This proved to be totally effective, I believe, and it appeared to act as an appetite stimulant as well. So personally I think it sound advice to recommend this treatment as a first step in a "sight unseen" regurge problem.

IMHO.

 

[Black Adder]

Just to share an experience that is somewhat relevant to the case in hand here.

I had a pair of m/f snow bull snakes that had been in my care for about 18 months both suddenly regurge the same week of feeding, no issues with any other snakes fed at the same time. No big deal, wait a couple of weeks, dose them with flagyl and try again.
Well about 13 days later BOTH rolled and died within about 2 hours of each other, so yes I considered this very concerning.
I took the female to have a necropsy done at a fair expense.
Results....totally inconclusive as nothing really could be seen wrong at all. Now the vet explained that even the best reptile vets still have not the best understanding of just what goes on inside these magnificent cold blooded creatures at times whose design has remained unaltered basically from prehistoric days.

So considering the vast majority of people likely do not have access to even a half decent reptile vet, most times it is nearly a fruitless exercise. Yes I realise there ARE some great reptile vets out there but they are not as common as some on these forums would lead you to believe. And the 3 I know in my area, ALL charge $80 just to walk in the door!

Now as these were snow bull snakes from the same clutch I concluded most likely some genetic disorder as you have to remember that all snows, albinos etc are really a form of a genetic abnormality and who knows what else may have occurred internally?

As the ops pines were albino there is a chance they were doomed from the start as the only snakes I have lost for no good reason are the pair of snow bull snakes and 1 snow cornsnake.

No sides taken here, just saying......

 

[Lucille]

So considering the vast majority of people likely do not have access to even a half decent reptile vet, most times it is nearly a fruitless exercise. .

I understand what you are saying. But if one makes the choice not to go to a vet, I think that one should at least do something for the ailing critter.

But here, for quite a bit of time, the OP appears not only to have not taken the critter to a vet, but not have done anything for many weeks despite the flagyl advice received from the seller.
Ultimately the OP did give flagyl but it appears to be given over a month after Evan suggested it.

As the ops pines were albino there is a chance they were doomed from the start

Perhaps so. But spacing the feedings a little further apart might have been good, or starting the flagyl earlier.

 

[Black Adder]

I absolutely agree Lucille and that was a definite mistake on the ops part for sure imho.
Flagyl should have been administered within a couple of days of the regurge.
Considering their relative young age I probably would have attempted a refeed about 10 to 12 days later if everything else appeared to be good.
It is possible they could have lived but also entirely possible that not much could have helped.
But yes Flagyl should have at least been tried at an early stage.

 

[RichsBallPythons]

I purchased 2 baby albino southern pinesnakes from Evan Stahl Reptiles https://www.facebook.com/EvanStahlReptiles/ and received them on August the 24th. Both ate small meals a week after arrival and then were fed weekly after that. On 9/7 the male regurgitated its meal, held down its meal on 9/14, then died on 9/19.

I notified Evan Stahl on the 19th and did not get a response until the 21st. The response basically said none of his other customers were having issues and that I should administer Flagyl.

The female then regurgitated its meal on the 24th and from there forward has kept down all meals. I assumed it was going to be ok as it seemed to be eating normally. I hoped for the best.

The female is now lethargic and while it is holding down meals it's poop is a bit runny and grayish. I notified Evan of this issue and he was very confrontational and basically told me it was my fault for not administering Flagyl. I insisted that he should have not sold me sick animals in the first place and let him know that I was very dissatisfied with the purchase. That is where I left things with him.

I have now administered flagyl after my not so great discussion with him on the 18th of October and am not seeing any difference in the female specimen.

I wanted to post my experience with Evan Stahl Reptiles since his reviews are turned off on his facebook business page and I would also like any suggestions you may have for getting this girl back on track.

Pay attention to the bold i highlighted...

You got the snakes on the 24th, then on the 31st you fed them. Then again week later on the 7th which the male regurgitated its meal. You then offered another meal 7 days later, and snake died 2 days later...

Unsure of your knowledge when it comes to regurges, but you pushed food to fast too soon. Not allowing the gut flora to replenish in time, the rodent sat in the stomach and rotted away. Whenever a snake regurges, you need to go SLOW and i mean SLOW, to allow their stomach to bounce back. This is not on Evan, but on you for feeding to soon.

 

[elena]

 

[Lucille]

I have 18 pines in my collection currently and have never experienced anything like this. They are usually greedy pigs who grow like weeds.

For Evan tell me to treat the snakes for disease with Flagyl, sight unseen and with so little data, throws up red flags for me.

I did not post this to argue with Evan or to spend all my days in this forum. I have been a fauna member since 2005 and I have not ever had to post a negative review of a seller/company before.

Evan tried to help you and your critters.

 

[Snake-Queen]

Pay attention to the bold i highlighted...

You got the snakes on the 24th, then on the 31st you fed them. Then again week later on the 7th which the male regurgitated its meal. You then offered another meal 7 days later, and snake died 2 days later...

Unsure of your knowledge when it comes to regurges, but you pushed food to fast too soon. Not allowing the gut flora to replenish in time, the rodent sat in the stomach and rotted away. Whenever a snake regurges, you need to go SLOW and i mean SLOW, to allow their stomach to bounce back. This is not on Evan, but on you for feeding to soon.

I have to agree with the bolded sentence.

You did many things wrong with the snakes and communication with the seller. You should have contacted the seller after a regurge. When you did, you didn't follow his advice, that is on you.

 

[elena]

Maybe the snakes were sick when Evan sold them. We'll never know, because the OP's bad husbandry and refusal to seek help or take advice has clouded the issue.

 

[DavidBeard]

Seems more and more common these days where folks post "bad guy" threads and instead of ruining the other person/company's name they ruin their own....its getting to the point where we might need to change the name to Backfire Of Inquiry.

 

[Chris Kennard]

Seems more and more common these days where folks post "bad guy" threads and instead of ruining the other person/company's name they ruin their own....its getting to the point where we might need to change the name to Backfire Of Inquiry.

Not bad. I always thought POF. Wild guess? Anyone.

 

[tlmoon]

All I can think of is POOF (as in, poof, something disappears), Chris. I think my brain is tired lol.

I think the OP does honestly think the snakes were sick, and therefore this is a reasonable bad guy thread. And they may well have been - with something that wasn't obvious. As mentioned, the issue of the treatment of the regurg and the disregarding of the advice about the flagyl clouds the issue. So this could be an unfortunate situation where no one is really a bad guy. The snakes may have had something, or a predisposition to something, and the stress of shipping brought it out. Certainly if they looked fine on arrival it's hard to say the seller should have known something was up.

I think people have to remember that this is a relatively small community/hobby and reputation matters a lot. Posting a BOI bad guy thread that isn't fully justified rubs a lot of people the wrong way. If it's actually unfair and unreasonable, posters will definitely get a lot of pushback. And I think that's what the OP is getting here.

 

[cbaker81]

The fact is that I received the snakes and one died within a month.

I asked the Evan about it and he told me I should treat for disease with Flagyl right off the bat without seeing a vet or even acknowledging that the specimens were sick. He did not offer any other advice.

Evan also stated in this post that he had the animals for 2 months feeding weekly and that the breeder had them for some time before that. If that was the case they should have been larger than the other babies I purchased this year which were only 4 weeks old but they were as small as 2-week old hatchlings.

I should have done my homework on Evan Stahl Reptiles here and on facebook before purchasing them. His reputation in both places speaks for itself.

 

[Insomniac101]

The fact is that I received the snakes and one died within a month.

I asked the Evan about it and he told me I should treat for disease with Flagyl right off the bat without seeing a vet or even acknowledging that the specimens were sick. He did not offer any other advice.

Evan also stated in this post that he had the animals for 2 months feeding weekly and that the breeder had them for some time before that. If that was the case they should have been larger than the other babies I purchased this year which were only 4 weeks old but they were as small as 2-week old hatchlings.

I should have done my homework on Evan Stahl Reptiles here and on facebook before purchasing them. His reputation in both places speaks for itself.

Tough situation. I can certainly see the frustration of losing a snake so soon after purchasing. As others have pointed out, I don't think either you, or Evan, are completely right, or completely wrong here.

Pine snakes are pretty sturdy critters, so I would be inclined to think there was something going on before you received them, and the stress of shipping weakened them further. However, since they were asymptomatic when you received them, Evan probably thought he was sending you healthy animals (I would too). For your part, you fed them too soon after the regurge, not allowing time for the gut flora to re-establish itself.

All of that said, if I were the seller, I would offer you a refund for the male, less shipping. Why? Because I don't think the animals were 100% healthy. Whose fault is that? Hard to say, as they appeared outwardly healthy. I personally feel that, if I sold you an animal that was dead in a few weeks, I would want to try to help you, even though you didn't treat the animal sooner. That's just how I would look at it, as a hobbyist. My thoughts; not necessarily others'.

Kathy

 

[SiXandSeven8ths]

The fact is that I received the snakes and one died within a month.

I asked the Evan about it and he told me I should treat for disease with Flagyl right off the bat without seeing a vet or even acknowledging that the specimens were sick. He did not offer any other advice.

You needed some guy you never met to tell you take your animals to the vet? Should you even be keeping animals? Had his initial response to been to take them to the vet prompted you to do so? Why not do so on your own accord? How could he know what the conditions were 1 month after they were out of his possession? We aren't talking about a used car that the dealer won't honor a warranty on (mostly because most used cars don't come with a warranty). If the brakes were bad and weren't disclosed, that's one thing. But you can't let the brakes fail, not take it to the shop, and then blame the dealer.

I should have done my homework on Evan Stahl Reptiles here and on facebook before purchasing them. His reputation in both places speaks for itself.

Yep. So, who's at fault here?

 

[MikeCurtin]

You needed some guy you never met to tell you take your animals to the vet? Should you even be keeping animals? Had his initial response to been to take them to the vet prompted you to do so? Why not do so on your own accord? How could he know what the conditions were 1 month after they were out of his possession? We aren't talking about a used car that the dealer won't honor a warranty on (mostly because most used cars don't come with a warranty). If the brakes were bad and weren't disclosed, that's one thing. But you can't let the brakes fail, not take it to the shop, and then blame the dealer.

I rarely respond here for this reason, and here I am twice in one thread...getting sucked in.

The OP made 2 mistakes as I see it: 1. Didn't communicate about concerns upon receipt. 2. Pushed animals too hard after regurge.

Other "mistakes" are not using flagyl, and not bringing snakes to the vet, both of which could be considered debatable.

As for the car analogy, if mechanics had the track record of most vets (when dealing with delicate exotics), I'd learn how to fix my own damn brakes.

Having said that, I don't see how berating the OP is helpful right now.

 

[snakesareawesome]

I can't think of any way to prove the condition of the snakes at shipping time. If other people had received snakes from the same clutch, from the same person, at the same time, perhaps we could have a better chance to draw a conclusion. Regarding exotic vets, I think the main reason people do not use them have little to do with competency and a lot to do with being cheap. With sick animals, the vet visit is not cheap, the medicines are not cheap, necropsy here costs 65$ but the bloodwork, trach washes, etc can add up. However, if you want to further the advancement of reptile medicine, we need to do these things to explain what has happened.