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Bad Guy Evan Stahl - Sent Me Sick Pine Snakes

cbaker81

cbaker81

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I purchased 2 baby albino southern pinesnakes from Evan Stahl Reptiles https://www.facebook.com/EvanStahlReptiles/ and received them on August the 24th. Both ate small meals a week after arrival and then were fed weekly after that. On 9/7 the male regurgitated its meal, held down its meal on 9/14, then died on 9/19.

I notified Evan Stahl on the 19th and did not get a response until the 21st. The response basically said none of his other customers were having issues and that I should administer Flagyl.

The female then regurgitated its meal on the 24th and from there forward has kept down all meals. I assumed it was going to be ok as it seemed to be eating normally. I hoped for the best.

The female is now lethargic and while it is holding down meals it's poop is a bit runny and grayish. I notified Evan of this issue and he was very confrontational and basically told me it was my fault for not administering Flagyl. I insisted that he should have not sold me sick animals in the first place and let him know that I was very dissatisfied with the purchase. That is where I left things with him.

I have now administered flagyl after my not so great discussion with him on the 18th of October and am not seeing any difference in the female specimen.

I wanted to post my experience with Evan Stahl Reptiles since his reviews are turned off on his facebook business page and I would also like any suggestions you may have for getting this girl back on track.
 
What was the dose of Flagyl you used ? Current recommended dose is 45-50 mgs / kg. Years ago it was much higher. Did you use liquid or dissolved a tablet ? Some say repeat it in two weeks while some say three days in a row.

Keep the meals very small and infrequent until she's back on track. And definately keep her away from your other animals.

Good luck.
 
Did you have a necropsy done on the male? Have you taken the female to the vet?
 
Just so you know, it is important to fast a snake for 3-4 weeks after a regurge, and then give small meals and gradually build back up to a normal prey size. Without this waiting period, the regurge will happen again and again, sometimes leading to death. As some of the others have stated, flagyl is for internal parasites, something a captive snake should never have. I can only assume that your albino animals are captive bred, so the only way they could have intestinal parasites is if they contracted them from another animal, which shows poor quarantine and cross-contamination, poor husbandry. Take your remaining snake to the vet immediately and have them test for parasites. If parasites are found, Mr. Stahl may be seriously in the wrong. But I have to ask, do you own any WC animals, and what do you do to prevent cross-contamination? It's important to know these things to rule out a husbandry error on your end. I will say that you probably should have taken these guys to the vet sooner. It's inappropriate to administer flagyl to a CB animal without a fecal test to confirm parasites.
 
elena said:
Just so you know, it is important to fast a snake for 3-4 weeks after a regurge, and then give small meals and gradually build back up to a normal prey size. Without this waiting period, the regurge will happen again and again, sometimes leading to death.
Click to expand...

I agree with this, for the most part. Two weeks is usually sufficient, especially if the snake is already ailing.

OP, before administering any further medication, I advise a vet visit for a check up and fecal exam.
 
A quick recap of the facts. The buyer received the snakes and confirmed that he was happy with them 3 weeks later he informed me of problems he had and that the male haddied. I inquired as to why he had not contacted me sooner. He also has never sent me any pics or evidence that the male died.

I responded less than two days later. Apparently that is a long time as he keeps emphasizing that point. I was busy. Not everyone can respond 24 hours a day 7 days a week i do the best that i can.

So i then suggested that he dose the female with flagy. It is not only for internal parasites. It has very commonly been used to help with colubrid snakes that have digestive issues as it flushes out the digestive system and stimulates appetite. It is even used for humans.

I then did not hear back from him for a month. In that timw he not only did not take my advice but did not take it to a vet, have a culture done or anything else. His idea was after a snake regurgitate it should then be fed every dew days. No concern for the stress on the animal.

These are captive bred. You do not see too many wild caught hatchling albinos around. They were produced by an excellent breeder and were fed by him multiple times. I then held them here and they ate weekly on frozen thawed fuzzy mice for almost two months before i sold them. I never had any problems with them. From the same group animals were sold to several other customers who have also not had any issues.

I tried to help the customer with husbandry but got little and spotty information from him and answers to my questions. As i said when i did suggest what to do i got an argument and then he did nothing for the animal for over a month. Now that he took my advice the snake is eating and not puking.

A note on posting those negative links about me, instead of being selective to bash me why don't you post links to all the positive threads on me? I also have perfect trader rTings on this site with repeat customers. Trying to paint me in a negative way using those bad guy threads is just a weak tactic when every week i have dozens of happy customers who do not know this site exists.
 
How about one of y'all post all communications, it will help firm up the timeline.

I thought I had misread the OP's timeline, 3 weeks is a long time to have a snake and not contact the seller if you have issues.
 
cbaker81 said:
I purchased 2 baby albino southern pinesnakes from Evan Stahl Reptiles https://www.facebook.com/EvanStahlReptiles/ and received them on August the 24th. Both ate small meals a week after arrival and then were fed weekly after that. On 9/7 the male regurgitated its meal, held down its meal on 9/14, then died on 9/19.
Click to expand...



evansnakes said:
I then did not hear back from him for a month. In that timw he not only did not take my advice but did not take it to a vet, have a culture done or anything else. His idea was after a snake regurgitate it should then be fed every dew days. No concern for the stress on the animal.
Click to expand...
OP, you apparently did no research, did not go to or even call a vet. It appears that the sum total of your effort to address the regurge was to complain the the seller.
OP, these critters are living things. It is perfectly OK to ask questions of an experienced herper, but the bottom line is that you need to consult a vet if illness persists.

evansnakes said:
He also has never sent me any pics or evidence that the male died.
Click to expand...
OP this is a reasonable request. Besides emails, please post a pic of the deceased snake.
 
It is totally inappropriate to feed a snake seven days after a regurge. That alone could have killed it. OP, take your remaining snake to the vet.
 
Also, a necropsy should have been dong on the male. If you want to try to get money back from a seller 25 days after you receive the animal, you should have proof that the snake was ill prior to you receiving it. And he definitely doesn't owe you a dime if you can't prove the snake is dead.
 
elena said:
It is totally inappropriate to feed a snake seven days after a regurge. That alone could have killed it. OP, take your remaining snake to the vet.
Click to expand...
I agree.

Anything could've contributed to the snake's regurgitation, including but not limited to: stress, low temperatures, improper prey size, illness.


If I read the original post correctly, the male regurgitated 14 days after purchase, at that time the OP didn't contact the seller or a vet. If he had, Evan could've told him about the Flagyl then and advised no to feed for at least 2 weeks.
 
Even if there was something wrong with that snake before purchase, the OP bears at least partial responsibility for failing to deal with the regurge properly. IMO, without a necropsy proving that the snake was ill before purchase, Mr. Stahl is in the clear. A health guarantee (if one was provided) is rarely indefinite. Mr. Stahl, what were your TOS on this transaction? Did you clearly communicate them to the buyer?
 
I hope you can get that female to the vet as she definitely needs to see one. Were these two snakes ever in the same habitat? I wonder if she caught whatever the male had (if he had something contagious).
 
Here are a couple images of the frozen male.

I am not asking for arbitration by the peers here nor did I request my money back from Evan.

I am simply posting my experience and opinion of the transaction and the health of the snakes.

The facts that both snakes are/were going through the same symptoms while the environmental factors remain perfect and the exact same as my other baby pines who are all thriving point to illness.

I have 18 pines in my collection currently and have never experienced anything like this. They are usually greedy pigs who grow like weeds.

For Evan tell me to treat the snakes for disease with Flagyl, sight unseen and with so little data, throws up red flags for me.

I did not post this to argue with Evan or to spend all my days in this forum. I have been a fauna member since 2005 and I have not ever had to post a negative review of a seller/company before.
 

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With 18 others, you are not a novice to pine snakes, so I feel no need to question your husbandry.

However, it could be environmental stress, especially if Evan kept them in tubs and you keep them in enclosures or terrariums.

I still advise a vet visit for the female.
 
I personally don't feel that the OP deserves a free pass on husbandry, due to the mismanagement of the regurge. Just because the OP has a large number of pine snakes, does not mean they are managed correctly. Since a necropsy is out (the male has been frozen). the only way to determine fault is for the female to go to the vet, which the OP should do anyway for the health of the animal.
 
Threads like this one make me wonder why anyone would bother to share their experience. This OP just posted a review of his experience and said he was dissatisfied with his purchase. He didn’t request a refund or make any demands of the seller in his post.
He's immediately confronted by a couple posters questioning his husbandry and declaring that if the snake has parasites it is due to his poor husbandry, improper quarantine, etc. That is followed up with statements that he should have got a necropsy and he should have taken the animal to the vet immediately.
The cost of the necropsy and the cost of a vet visit including an exam, fecal flotation, fecal direct smear test and meds would have far exceeded the cost of these snakes. Since the OP was also told that he should have fasted the snakes for weeks he probably would need to pay for a cloacal wash as well in order to get stool for a diagnosis. I’ve read enough threads on this site over the last 15 years to know that if the OP had decided to do this he would be told that he made the decision to incur these costs and the seller is only responsible for the cost of the snakes.
I don’t think that the OP or the seller presented enough evidence to prove fault but I think the most likely scenario is that the snakes had a protozoan infection prior to the sale but may not have been symptomatic yet. The stress of shipping and a change in environment probably weakened the animal’s immune system and caused the baby snakes to decline quickly. This would explain why the seller may not have been aware of any illness and the OP has not noticed illness with any of the other animals that he owns that were not in contact with these snakes.
I hope the other snake pulls through for you.
 
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