Bad Guy Joe Schmidt/Chad Fuchs and Cryptosporidium!

[Justin Mitcham]

tip of the iceberg

why??

well for one they are hiding in there own forum on FB talking about this ..there they can ban and censor what is said. Like you seen recently FB cliques have become little bubble universes where people can exist without criticism ..a safe space!!

Second, because its just the tip of the iceberg, I'm not going to speak for anyone but I can say there are people who could contribute to this thread from US-Europe-Asia. I have heard from several customers and friends that Crypto has recently become an epidemic in the hognose community. I can assure you I dont have it. Recently a customer who had a bad experience with another breeder (not mentioned here) tested some animals that I sent him and they came back clean!

 

[bcr229]

...there are people who could contribute to this thread from US-Europe-Asia. I have heard from several customers and friends that Crypto has recently become an epidemic in the hognose community.

So encourage these people to sign up and post.

 

[Justin Mitcham]

lol

to come out and say they have crypto??
That will be tough! I applaud any that do. Unfortunately many breeders are not as brave as Karin!That is why I think this is remarkable. She has accepted her part , she lost much of her collection and is going through this trying to learn from her mistakes. It would be much easier for her to keep her mouth shut and try to move on. Instead she is doing the right thing and letting the community know whats going on. I wish we had more people like this.

 

[charleshanklin]

why??

well for one they are hiding in there own forum on FB talking about this ..there they can ban and censor what is said. Like you seen recently FB cliques have become little bubble universes where people can exist without criticism ..a safe space!!

Second, because its just the tip of the iceberg, I'm not going to speak for anyone but I can say there are people who could contribute to this thread from US-Europe-Asia. I have heard from several customers and friends that Crypto has recently become an epidemic in the hognose community. I can assure you I dont have it. Recently a customer who had a bad experience with another breeder (not mentioned here) tested some animals that I sent him and they came back clean!

Hopefully they come forward and out whoever is spreading it.

 

[tlmoon]

Karin, thanks for posting and bringing this to light. Sorry to hear about the crypto and the issues you've had.

 

[EdwardK]

Second, because its just the tip of the iceberg, I'm not going to speak for anyone but I can say there are people who could contribute to this thread from US-Europe-Asia. I have heard from several customers and friends that Crypto has recently become an epidemic in the hognose community. I can assure you I dont have it. Recently a customer who had a bad experience with another breeder (not mentioned here) tested some animals that I sent him and they came back clean!

The following is a point of fact and isn't intended to discuss cryptosporidium infections in a wider context in this thread but simply to provide context to readers who may not have a good grasp of it at this time. I won't address it further here.

Cryptosporidium infections have historically not been considered to be uncommon as infected animals can be asymptomatic for years while occasionally shedding oocysts which remain infective for long periods of time and are resistant to most common disinfectants, and are easy to spread within the collection.

The historical usage of fecals to catch infections and the intermittent shedding of oocysts in infected but asymptomatic animals means that it can go undetected in a collection for years as fecal checks of every fecal event are not cost effective for hobbyists or even institutions like zoos outside of exceptional circumstances and many hobbyists do not routinely have necropsies performed on deceased specimens (histopathology is often required for subclinical infections). part of the problem with fecals, is the perception that a negative fecal(s) mean an uninfected animal, all a negative fecal tells you is that nothing was detected at that time.

If PCR becomes widely used by the hobbyists (there are several companies such as http://www.vetdna.com/ (RAL, (972) 960-2221
(972) 960-1997
411 East McDermott Drive Ste B. Allen, Texas 75002), then the extent of the prevalence of the disease will become more apparent. In the meantime, to call it the tip of the iceberg is inexact as the prevalence has historically been considered to be widespread. See for example,
Xiao, L., Ryan, U. M., Graczyk, T. K., Limor, J., Li, L., Kombert, M., ... & Koudela, B. (2004). Genetic diversity of Cryptosporidium spp. in captive reptiles. Applied and Environmental Microbiology, 70(2), 891-899.
currently free access https://aem.asm.org/content/aem/70/2/891.full.pdf

Pasmans, Frank, et al. "Introducing reptiles into a captive collection: the role of the veterinarian." The Veterinary Journal 175.1 (2008): 53-68.

currently free access https://ddd.uab.cat/pub/estudis/1990/167549/neusmorera2.pdf

The above is a point of fact and isn't intended to discuss cryptosporidium infections in a wider context but simply to provide context to readers who may not have a good grasp of it at this time.

some comments

Ed

 

[DrChad]

If anyone is interested, my lab, Research Associates Laboratory, performs qPCR diagnostics for over 600 parasites and animal diseases including cryptosporidium. TVMD, as do many other universities worldwide, sends us diagnostic specimens for PCR testing. We do accept individual work as well. I’d be happy to answer any and all questions about testing, diagnostics, cryptosporidium etc.

 

[Justin Mitcham]

to Ed

Ed ..so what I said is that a lot of people have this today..Many are going through what Karin is, thats a fact. You said to the effect that's not exact because everyone has it.. huh?? Thank you for making the distinction, more clear? Do you understand what "tip of the Iceberg means" it means more than what you can see... right.. isnt what you said basically the samthing.. that it is widespread and more prevalent than what you see???

You cite a zoo genetic diversity study to show prevalence in Captive collections?
Have you read the report and its controls of this study.. all it shows is that its widespead in the St. Louis and other zoos, it doesnt list where all the animals comes from except countries.. were they supplied by a wholesaler..or private breeders.. under what conditions and why?? Have you been to a zoo ? I have many many times , in fact I helped the Sedgwick zoo figure out there hognose issues..why we have Lucys today. I can tell you my place is much much cleaner.
I have been breeding hognose for almost 2 decades now. Sold thousands of animals over the years and talked with hundreds of breeders something I dont think you have done. People come to me for help and advice. Can you explain one thing.. why havnt we seen an out break like this in the hognose industry before? Not saying it hasn't happened before.
If it is so prevalent why have so many long term hobbyist and breeders lost there collections in such a short time recently as opposed to gradually. Has something changed? I know of a dozen people with this currently. Testing for crypto has been around for sometime and if your spending 10's of thousands of dollars on hogs then paying for this service is well within many breeders reach.

Has any studies been species specific.. seems hognose were not used in the DNA study you mentioned. To say that all snakes share the same biology,care, food isnt accurate. To say that all snakes are just as common isnt as well, cornsnakes , kinsgsnakes,ball pythons have been farmed for decades and are much more prevalent , hognose snakes have not been, at least not on a large scale. I would say only a couple handful of successful breeders supply what you see today.

Read the conclusion??
8. Conclusion
Our knowledge concerning reptile and amphibian diseases has improved greatly over the last two decades. Preventing the introduction of known pathogenic agents
should allow the establishment of healthy breeding groups
in captivity. However, some main difficulties will have to be
overcome in the future: (1) the lack of good diagnostic
screening methods (e.g. for IBD); (2) the scarcity of clinical
laboratories in which the correct diagnostic tests can be
performed; (3)the lack of knowledge about the normal
microbiota of most reptilian taxa and (4) the complete lack
of vaccines.

and
. In addition to the premature death of infected animals, one problem with the control measure is the
frequent presence of oocysts of C. muris and the C. parvum
mouse genotype in snakes because of the use of feeder mice as
part of the diet. Because it is difficult to differentiate oocysts
of the pathogenic C. serpentis from those of nonpathogenic
Cryptosporidium spp. that merely pass through the gastrointestinal tract, the diagnosis-euthanasia control strategy would
lead to the killing of uninfected animals.


My take.. still the same.. whats going on now is probably just the tip of the iceberg. We have no ideal until a real study is done.

 

[DrChad]

In fact there are laboratories that differentiate c.serpentis from c.parvum. We perform this testing for zoos, breeders etc on a daily basis. Having performed thousands of these PCR tests, it’s completely reasonable to believe that outbreaks from the transfer of infected animals happen regularly between zoos. It would not be much of a reach to assume that infection of breeder animals occurs rather frequently. Only recently has there been a significant increase in testing of reptiles for crypto, IBD, Nidovirus. Hopefully this trend continues.

 

[Justin Mitcham]

another point

also I would like to point out that many breeders still feed WC frogs and lizards, frog scenting etc.. this is hugely problematic. Until breeders stop using WC then it will be difficult to prevent. Most dont even tell their customers, most dont even do a fecal afterwards.

My routine..which Im sure can be improved.
Isolate all animals until breeding age as much as possible. I simply do not let animals use the same anything.

I have a small cb barking tree frog colony for the ones that just wont take unscented

95% of the time I use canned scents like salmon, tuna , and vienna sausage.

use disposable water bowls

keep records of who what when where and why

have a strong UVB wand or source

I prewash then rewash everything with dawn and chlorohexidine in high heat.. Im anal.
I have a old school dish washer that gets 160F+ and heat dries. It will melt many plastics on this setting. Most reptile brand delicups cant take it so I use a restaurant supply store near my home and buy the expensive "solo brand" ones that take high heat and lids dont break after the 30th tug.

All babies are kept in food grade delicups that can go through the washer on this setting.

I use pyrethrin strips if I see gnats and use routinely to control dust mites.. I have a slight allergy to dust mites so I personally like my room cleaner.

I also have hydrogen peroxide,bleach ,chloro and ammonia if I feel it is needed.

We use laytex gloves

We dont clean when we feed or water

Always clean the tops, some forget that part

Use a large industrial carbon filter for air quality

Always use 4-5 stage RO for clean water

Since I live in Texas Ill prewash with a hose and set in direct sun in the 90-105F heat for a few hours, then do the above.

We keep multiple fans in the room for high ventilation and allow for quick drying of feces..gives gnats hell and helps achieve my no condensation rule.

Never ever top off waterbowls.

Always thaw in hot water, cleaner the food the better.

Daily cleaning is key to prevent gnats and to keep hognose cages clean. We call it spot cleaning. Takes no time!!

I am sure a lot can be added to this..

 

[Insomniac101]

We do accept individual work as well. I’d be happy to answer any and all questions about testing, diagnostics, cryptosporidium etc.

Thank you; that is a kind, and generous offer!

Some years back, I lost a green tree python that was asymptomatic. I couldn't afford the fees my vet wanted for a necropsy, and histo studies.

After some research and phone calls, I ended up removing organs and tissues myself, and sending them to the University of Florida. No crypto, thankfully, but a very high colony count of a rare bacterium that I can't remember the name of.

Not to undermine, or dismiss a vet's training and experience, but not everyone can afford the $900 cost for those services. I was thankful that U of F accepted specimens from me, as a private hobbyist, and at less than 25% of the estimated cost from my vet.

Kathy

 

[Lucille]

We perform this testing for zoos, breeders etc on a daily basis.

Really, daily? A brief search of your name shows a Chad Lytle as a technical manager associated with Crisp Labs (is that you?) which does mostly asbestos and industrial lab reports (and one of the Crisp Labs lost a suit when it submitted an erroneous asbestos report that caused financial damage to a large company).

I suggest to those interested that they research any labs prior to use to make sure that their money is well spent. Perhaps Crisp Labs does so, perhaps not.
Perhaps an info post requesting high caliber labs might be a better place to discuss the issue.

 

[AllisonLeigh]

My search returned a different result. I am a suspicious person so a new name with unconfirmed accreditation made me curious as well, but I felt better from my findings than yours. See this article: https://www.wgrz.com/article/news/l...t-from-dead-skin-and-dust-mites/287-509564697

Specifically this quote:
Chad Lytle has a Ph.D in molecular biology. He works at Research Associates Laboratory in Allen, Texas. They're going to DNA test this thing.

 

[Lucille]

My search returned a different result.

I'm glad you researched as well. I suggest that whatever lab one uses, that one research the lab first for quality and use one that is familiar with the particular test. I would not necessarily, for instance, chose Crisp Lab or any lab without further research.

 

[JColt]

Really, daily? A brief search of your name shows a Chad Lytle as a technical manager associated with Crisp Labs (is that you?) which does mostly asbestos and industrial lab reports (and one of the Crisp Labs lost a suit when it submitted an erroneous asbestos report that caused financial damage to a large company).

I suggest to those interested that they research any labs prior to use to make sure that their money is well spent. Perhaps Crisp Labs does so, perhaps not.
Perhaps an info post requesting high caliber labs might be a better place to discuss the issue.

This is the website for Research Associates Laboratory.

http://www.vetdna.com/

 

[JColt]

Chad Lytle, Ph.D., is a molecular biologist for RAL

 

[DrChad]

I left Crisp analytical labs years ago when the company was sold.

 

[JimM]

I am sure a lot can be added to this..

I don't see much of anything could be added to this routine !

How many snakes are you working with ? How many people do you have working with you that do all of this all the time ?

Is this all you do or are you working a 'day job' too ? Either way, you have a very impressive routine and it's too bad very few others can or will follow something like this. I find it incredible you're able to control gnats/flies as well as you do. That has always been a problem during the warmer months at least on the east coast in collections not kept in basement set ups.

For most to follow such a routine, collections would have to be limited to very few animals ... which I agree with for the most part ... I think a lot people try and do too many animals.

And the thing is to make this really work .... EVERYBODY has to start with diease free animals (is there such a thing ?) , follow a protocol like yours to the letter, have routine fecals / necropsies, have shows that demand critical vet inspections, etc. and of course this will never happen. That was attempted years ago and just didn't work ... it's all cost prohibitive. The last necropsy I needed was over 15 years ago and it was over $400.00 with inconclusive results. Guys then thought I was nuts for having it done ... and i'm sure that is the way most see it.

The whiole thing has just become so big ... there are too many breeding and selling, too many shows, too many WC animals mixed in to keep it all 'clean'.

So what's the answer ?? ?? I don't think there is one. I can't speak for everyone but personally I stopped going to shows, buying from anyone I don't know / referred to by a few good friends or could drive to do do the deal in person.

And still that's no guarentee you'll heve a problem free collection of animals.

 

[DrChad]

With over 20 years as an industrial microbiologist, accreditation specialist and a molecular biologist I may add. Yes research Associates Laboratory performs molecular diagnostics daily for zoos, pathologists, veterinarians etc. cryptosporidium as well as over 600 diagnostic tests are performed.

 

[Justin Mitcham]

thank you.

Thank you Jim,I actually dont keep as many hogs as most people think, I do pretty well with a smallish number about 30.50 + or - with portion being yearling or juvi raising up. Hatching season I produce about 300-500.. biggest years maybe up to 700ish, mostly just me and the wife who do all the work. Its a full time job between hatchlings and adults, emails and txt msg, fb etc..
At 500+ head it really becomes well unpleasant.. all the scenting and hogs need to be offered 2-3x per week..if you open a container 4x a week well Im sure you can add. Expensive too..pinkys arnt .15 anymore lol going through 1000 a week is no fun especially when some dont want to eat at 1st.