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Wanted Bog Turtle(s)

A

alternaguy

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Does anyone out there work with Bog turtles (Glyptemys muhlenbergii)? I am well aware they are listed as Appendix I. I would have no problem applying to the USFWS for a CITES permit to import any across state lines. I have over 30 years keeping and breeding various reptiles. I am currently specializing in breeding turtles. I work with many species of turtles including Spotted turtles N.A. Wood turtles, and several types of North American and Asian Box turtles. I have quite a bit of experience already applying for CITES permits. I already possess a Federal Import / Export License. Richard McNabb Crawling with Turtles [email protected]
 
alternaguy said:
Does anyone out there work with Bog turtles (Glyptemys muhlenbergii)? I am well aware they are listed as Appendix I. I would have no problem applying to the USFWS for a CITES permit to import any across state lines. I have over 30 years keeping and breeding various reptiles. I am currently specializing in breeding turtles. I work with many species of turtles including Spotted turtles N.A. Wood turtles, and several types of North American and Asian Box turtles. I have quite a bit of experience already applying for CITES permits. I already possess a Federal Import / Export License. Richard McNabb Crawling with Turtles [email protected]
Click to expand...

CITES has nothing to do with interstate transport. CITES is between international participants. You may be referring to a CBW permit, which is different, and which would apply to that scenario. Being granted a new one or having the species added to an existing CBW permit will have the odds stacked against the applicant at this point due to the state of the powers that be, but I guess one will not know if one does not try. I do wish more people would be allowed to work with them. A lot of keepers who have extensive experience with guttata and insculpta would be assets to captive propagation of muhlenbergii.

Good luck.
 
Thank you Nicholas for that information. Do you have a CBW by any chance? It is my understanding that CBW's do not apply to domestic animals. Only applies to animals from outside the U.S. Such as Radiated Tortoises, etc.

I do a lot of exporting of Appendix II turtles. I have to obtain a CITES permit for each export. It is my understanding if an animal is listed as Appendix I a CITES permit is required to ship across any state line. This is something my Attorney and I discuss frequently. The USFWS makes it hard for me to obtain the CITES permits. I think they make it difficult so people will smuggle so they can try to catch some of them. They always make a big deal out of any smuggler getting caught. My Attorney and I feel it is with the purpose to make turtles Appendix I. Not many in the U.S. do not have the kind of documentation to obtain a CITES permit to ship across a state line. It would kill turtle breeding as we know it. It could easily be done with a sweep of their pen. Just my opinion. Richard
 
alternaguy said:
Thank you Nicholas for that information. Do you have a CBW by any chance? It is my understanding that CBW's do not apply to domestic animals. Only applies to animals from outside the U.S. Such as Radiated Tortoises, etc.

I do a lot of exporting of Appendix II turtles. I have to obtain a CITES permit for each export. It is my understanding if an animal is listed as Appendix I a CITES permit is required to ship across any state line. This is something my Attorney and I discuss frequently. The USFWS makes it hard for me to obtain the CITES permits. I think they make it difficult so people will smuggle so they can try to catch some of them. They always make a big deal out of any smuggler getting caught. My Attorney and I feel it is with the purpose to make turtles Appendix I. Not many in the U.S. do not have the kind of documentation to obtain a CITES permit to ship across a state line. It would kill turtle breeding as we know it. It could easily be done with a sweep of their pen. Just my opinion. Richard
Click to expand...

I used to have a CBW for radiata, but when I moved from MO to FL, the CBW became defunct and my interest in the species became less strong, so I never elected to re-apply. On top of that, FL is rich with radiata availability, so I could do intrastate deals with radiata if desired (no need for a CBW anymore for me).

CITES (the I in CITES more specifically) still refers to international movement/trade rather than intranational movement/trade. A Burmese star (platynota) is CITES App I and can be shipped from any US state to any other US state without CITES or a CBW. The CBW system and the CITES system are independent of each other, but sometimes the species covered by those have overlap (radiata) and other times not (platynota).

A CBW applies to any animal which is allowed to be owned that is also officially listed on the ESA (and there are also animals on the ESA which cannot be privately owned). There are species that are native/domestic to the US that are ESA-listed and a CBW would be necessary for interstate commerce. Not transport if one was moving personal animals from one state to another, but in any form of commercial dealing/transaction. If I had a legally obtained and owned bog, I could move it from one legal state of residence to another legal state of residence without a CBW. Likewise, if I had a legally obtained and owned bog, I would be free to sell/buy it to/from another legal resident of my same state without a CBW (setting any state-specific permit discussion aside since that is a lower hurdle when it applies). If I had a legally obtained and owned bog and wanted to do a trade, purchase, or sale from/to/with another owner of a legally obtained and owned bog that resides in a state that was not my own state of residence, then both myself and that other owner would both have to have CBWs with bogs listed/approved on both of our CBWs in order to legally transact in any form insofar as bogs go. There is also the option of gifting, which does not require a CBW, but - practically speaking - nobody sane will usually gift bogs and I would definitely draft a letter of record if ever I were to engage in legitimate gifting of an ESA-listed species. Abuse of gifting to mask commercial transaction, if caught, would be followed by a reckoning none of us would want. Legitimate gifting occurs with some frequency of $50 to $1000 animals, but for the higher-end animals like bogs, legitimate gifting is likely a rarity if it ever happens at all. Far rarer than bogs themselves.
 
I understand the lack of any need if dealing intrastate. I read the interstate description but it is full of so much information that I am going to have to read it several times to really understand it.

I have already been contacted by someone willing to sell me some. What I am understanding from you is both of us will need a CBW for me to purchase them from him. I just emailed him a copy of my Federal Import Export permit. He said he is going to get some documentation notarized and send the documentation to me tomorrow. I think I need to reach out to one of the USFWS Biologist I have been dealing with and ask about this. I do not need to run into trouble with these guys. Thanks again. Richard
 
Thank you. I have never worked with them but I feel if more people did we could do the same thing with them that is being done with Spotteds. I will have to call an USFWS Biologist tomorrow before closing the deal. Thanks again for you knowledge and insight Nicholas. Richard
 
Hey guys, I just heard back from the USFWS after asking them what I would need to receive a Bog turtle from someone. I will paste their response below.
I can't believe no one out there is able to provide me with any of these. I have been contacted by one person so far. He told me he has some he could sell me. I think he is just a lurker on this website and looks to rip people off by saying he has something, taking your money, and not delivering. Do your homework before paying someone for what they say they have. Richard

The bog turtle (Clemmys muhlenbergii) is protected under the U.S. Endangered Species Act (ESA) as Threatened throughout its range except in the following states where it is listed as Threatened Due to Similarity of Appearance: Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Virginia. The following prohibitions apply to this species wherever found: take, import, export, and interstate and foreign commerce. If you wish to purchase a bog turtle from a person in another state, you will need to obtain a threatened species interstate commerce permit. The seller will need to provide information to document that he/she obtained the turtle(s) or their parental stock in the case of captive-born/bred turtles, lawfully. The application form, 3-200-60, is the form you would need to complete and submit to initiate consideration of such a permit (see attached).

(*Please note: CITES applies only to import and export and therefore is not applicable to your situation.)
 
Well Richard it looks like if this seller you mention has to do all that paperwork he will either vanish or prove themselves to be a valid possessor or seller of these turtles and maybe that would help you. Are they close enough you could travel there and see what they have got? I really hope this works out for you.

While I'm here could I ask please if you know anyone that has the Hingeback tortoises Kinixys nogueyi, K. zombensis, K. lobatsiana, K. natalensis or K. zombensis domergueyi? I am seeking for breeding projects for myself as well as for the Kinixys Coop and Kinixys Working Group. Thank you.
 
Hi William,

I found out pretty quickly with asking good questions that the guy that contacted me was a crook. It led no where. I knew this was not going to be an easy quest.

I am a Turtle guy, not a Tortoise guy. When I see your list of wanted Tortoises, the name that comes to my mind is Chris Leone of Garden State Tortoise. Maybe you know him, if not he is someone you should get to know.
 
I remember the Cincinnati Zoo had one in the mid to late 90's, it was about 5" and had so much personality, it would literally walk to the side of the plastic marsh pen that was closest when we entered the room and act excited.....probably a food response but it was really neat to see a turtle react in such a positive and strong way when a person walked in. I saw one posted at Glades Herp when they were in Ft Myers in the late 90's and they said they had legal paperwork for it, the price did reflect the rarity. That's the last time i ever saw one and actually the only time I ever saw one listed by anyone.
I agree letting folks like you and Nick work with a species like this could easily increase the population substantially, the passion and care some expert keepers in the private sector could provide would rival any institutional work.
 
For Pete’s sake

Reading all the ins and outs of the federal laws and knowing they will lock you up, ask Tom Crutchfield, you realize it’s a giant boondoggle. It doesn’t really stop the breeding and trading, it just slows it down. If the breeders of our native turtles decided to restock the wild populations, it would take about 20 years and most would be safe. You still need to stop the removal of wild animals by state and federal but as far as losing our native turtles we could end that. Look at the number of desert tortoises being adopted out. Yes there is the disease problem but that can be dealt with. I agree bog turtles need to be bred more in captivity, which would increase the number available. Richard, while your looking, if you come across any gopher tortoises, I’d be interested, legal of course.
 
I have heard of a F & G department purchasing Alligator Snapping turtles from private breeders before to restock wild populations. However our government has blinders on when it comes to seeing things the way the private breeders see things. There are not enough institutions out there to be able to bring a species back from extinction. They are limited with space and resources. I am aware of a couple of institutions that work with Bog Turtles. I doubt they will work directly with me but I know someone that may be able to approach them and ask on my behalf. Mr. Trout, Gopher Tortoises are going to be in the same category as me looking for Bog turtles. All I can say is get the word out there, take all the criticism, attacks, and speculation that comes with trying to do something good for a species in need. I have posted on Facebook and here on Fauna. I did not think they would lead to anything but you have to give a 100% and hope for at least 10% in return. No Pain, No Gain, Remain the Same!
 
Still looking

I’ve been looking since the late eighties. First time I only got one response and he wasn’t nice. I had gophers when I was a kid, so I’m pretty old. And your right I’ll keep trying. Thanks for the encouragement and hope you find your bogs. The last guy who sold bogs was from Ohio and he ended up getting caught. Greed is a bad thing. You might get away with robbing one bank but if you don’t stop you is gonna get caught. Have a great day.
 
I own 120 acres of land in Gopher territory. I get to enjoy them frequently. I too have been bombarded with negative comments from my Facebook post regarding Bogs. Everyone seems to have not just an opinion but a strong opinion. I guess when someone sees another doing something away from the main stream they instantly think the worst. There are many people out there that are willing to help if one is willing to do things via the illegal route. I could have done that a long time ago if that was what I was after. I have worked too hard to get where I am at and have too much to lose to consider taking any illegally. I do not need to work with them that bad. There are other Tortoises that are just as enjoyable as Gophers. I believe Arizona has a Sonoran Desert Tortoise that is very similar to a Gopher. They are state protected there but are frequently placed in the hands of individuals instead of releasing them into the wild because of risking introducing a respiratory virus into the wild. Thanks for the positive feedback Mr. Trout. I knew this was not going to be an easy journey.
 
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