For Sale Peacock Tinctorius!

[Patrick Nabors]

Check out these gorgeous tinctorius! Well started juvenile frogs, ready for your terrarium or breeding project! Hardy and easy to care for.
$250 ea, although I'm looking for trades, so if you have surplus dart frogs, tree frogs, (male phyllobates bicolor, milk frogs, who knows...) or high end geckos (gargoyles, leachies, in particular)
Buy with confidence, I've been breeding dart frogs since 1992, and ship lots of frogs every week. Live arrival guaranteed, FedEx Priority Overnight is $49!
Visit Saurian.net to make your purchase, or email me at [email protected]....I rarely check the messages here.

 

[Socratic Monologue]

FYI buyers, this morph never left Brazil legally (they, like all dart frogs, are CITES II listed) and are in the hobby because of European smuggling -- the European hobby freely admits this, and CITES records confirms it. Possessing these is a Lacey Act violation.

 

[Patrick Nabors]

The ancestors of these frogs were indeed smuggled out of Brazil. The smuggled frogs were seized by European officials and turned over to a zoo, which bred them....these frogs were then released to European breeders, who bred them...and then those offspring exported with valid CITES paperwork to the US. Technically the government of Brazil does not acknowledge their legal status, (all the while they are clear cutting the forests for cattle ranching, farming and gold mining, as well as flooding large tracts for hydro-electric dams), but in the US, as well as in the eyes of CITES,they are just Dendrobates tinctorius, a perfectly legal CITES II species here with paperwork. If you feel that owning them is morally wrong then by all means, stay away from them! Many of the animals in our hobby, most Australian gecko species, for instance, are the offspring of animals that were smuggled out of Australia....buying their captive bred offspring is still morally better in my mind than buying many wild caught species that are offered in the hobby regularly.
I'm not going to engage in a discussion here in this format, but for those that are interested in more information, feel free to contact me.

 

[Socratic Monologue]

The ancestors of these frogs were indeed smuggled out of Brazil. The smuggled frogs were seized by European officials and turned over to a zoo, which bred them....these frogs were then released to European breeders, who bred them...and then those offspring exported with valid CITES paperwork to the US. Technically the government of Brazil does not acknowledge their legal status, (all the while they are clear cutting the forests for cattle ranching, farming and gold mining, as well as flooding large tracts for hydro-electric dams), but in the US, as well as in the eyes of CITES,they are just Dendrobates tinctorius, a perfectly legal CITES II species here with paperwork.

Correct on the history, incorrect on the legal status.

From Lacey § 3371 (a) The term "fish or wildlife" means any wild animal, whether alive or dead, including without limitation any wild mammal, bird, reptile, amphibian, fish, mollusk, crustacean, arthropod, coelenterate, or other invertebrate, whether or not bred, hatched, or born in captivity, and includes any part, product, egg, or offspring thereof.

§ 3372(a) It is unlawful for any person -
(2) to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase in interstate or foreign commerce...
(A) any fish or wildlife taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law or regulation of any State or in violation of any foreign law.

https://www.fws.gov/international/laws-treaties-agreements/us-conservation-laws/lacey-act.html

Lacey supercedes CITES, and so D. tinctorius "Tumucumaque" is illegal in the US based on the fact that they left Brazil illegally. Whether they entered the US with CITES papers doesn't matter.

Mr. Nabors, you've also in the past offered Adelphobates galactonotus "Blue":

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=727530

These are also illegal under Lacey, for the exact same reasons (including the fact that they had CITES export papers from Europe).

https://medium.com/usfws/rare-splas...-blue-as-they-fly-home-to-brazil-f280bc469303

The claims about US wildlife law you're putting forth here are quite clearly false. Whether that's by honest mistake, self-deception or outright lying is for each person to decide on their own based on what they assume you must know after many years in the hobby.

Interested buyers might do well to contact that other big herp classifieds site, or search that major dart frog site, and find out why D. tinctorius "Tumucumaque" and Adelphobates galactonotus "Blue" are not found for sale there.

A tangent:

Technically the government of Brazil does not acknowledge their legal status, (all the while they are clear cutting the forests for cattle ranching, farming and gold mining, as well as flooding large tracts for hydro-electric dams)

Look up "red herring" and read about why this doesn't work, argumentatively.

 

[vsnutz]

Both right

You both are right and yes, morally if you don't want them then don't buy them. The problem is Europe did not care to enforce rules laid down by CITES. I believe they both (among others) came through Germany or Netherlands, which made it legal because they did not recognize "morphs". I'm sure I butchered the whole story, but the U.S. isn't going to send anyone out to collect specimens or stop the breeding of these frogs because due to a technicality they very much so came to this country "legally". Again, it's a moral issue at this point.

 

[Roscoe09]

You both are right and yes, morally if you don't want them then don't buy them. The problem is Europe did not care to enforce rules laid down by CITES. I believe they both (among others) came through Germany or Netherlands, which made it legal because they did not recognize "morphs". I'm sure I butchered the whole story, but the U.S. isn't going to send anyone out to collect specimens or stop the breeding of these frogs because due to a technicality they very much so came to this country "legally". Again, it's a moral issue at this point.

Nicely said, this is what I’ve read about too. Loopholes. I believe they were legally imported because of neglect to specify localities. And because other tincs can legally be imported from other countries that why they are legal. Because the government recognizes species rather than localities.

And although we are nearly certain that the ancestors of these frogs came from Brazil, their geographical location I believe reaches or is very close to being in Suriname. And I think Suriname is still allowing legal exports of wild caught individuals. Though I do need to check to be more sure.

 

[Serafim]

always has to be that one person to start trashing. Patrick Nabors has been in this trade since the 90s and isn't going to ruin a stellar reputation over a couple of bucks. Don't want them don't buy them. Be an adult and move on

 

[geckos70]

always has to be that one person to start trashing. Patrick Nabors has been in this trade since the 90s and isn't going to ruin a stellar reputation over a couple of bucks. Don't want them don't buy them. Be an adult and move on

I agree 100%! I have know and been doing business with Patrick since the late 90's and he has always been a stand up guy. He has completely addressed the comment. There always someone who feels the need to highjack an ad to stir up drama.

 

[Beyond GenetiX]

Please knock off the unneeded back and forth. If you don't want to buy, move along. If you have questions about the animals, fell free to ask.

 

[Snakesatsunset]

If they were confiscated by a European country, released to a zoo with no stipulations on progeny, the zoo bred them and released the progeny to private sector with no stipulations on progeny, and a European country issued CB CITES for said progeny, then the US government must act accordingly to the signed treaty of CITES and authorize the import of said animals or be in violation of the treaty. The original parental stock that was confiscated by the european government, if it was not confiscated and released, and those progeny were bred by the smuggler and shipped to USA under CITES but false pretense, then yes it would be a lacey act violation.
Just as USFWS has auctioned off confiscated australian animals in the 80s and 90s, to the point where we can get a MASTER CITES for spotteds, chilredns, and even pygmny pythons, as well as black heads and womas.....then there is no illegal status of these frogs if the paperwork goes back to the original confiscated frogs of which were released to zoo then private sector with no written stipulations.