The PROOF that venomoid snakes are not safe!`

[devenomized]

Honestly, Christian, your depiction of the way an error could be made is pretty pathetic.

I'm not belittling any vet's abilities, but to suggest that they'd have to be impaired, distracted, or half asleep in order to mess up is ridiculous...and makes a mockery of this dicussion. I doubt that Dr Sabatini would suggest that this is anything but an intricate procedure that requires not only the aforementioned intimate knowledge of the anatomy of the venom production/conduction system, but the skill to carry out precise, detailed excision of said system. Reports I have read indicate that it is relatively easy for even a knowledgeable veterinarian to either miss a little, or remove some muscle/tissue that is not part of the target. While removing a little extra is no great problem, except for the need for more cosmetic filler, missing a little could be all the difference in the world to the keeper.

Please don't take my quote out of context because that's ridiculous.

 

[devenomized]

I hate when people take pieces of a quote to construct a statement. I said there is a greater possibility someone will buy a venomoid to swap the microchip than a licensed vet doing the surgery with their eyes closed. With that said, that's why I would require a legal liability release form if and only if i were a DVM. This was an example i was making and you are taking pieces to insult my intelligence, but the only once with a ridiculous statement is you trying to manipulate a quote to fit your needs.

 

[devenomized]

Honestly, Christian, your depiction of the way an error could be made is pretty pathetic.

I'm not belittling any vet's abilities, but to suggest that they'd have to be impaired, distracted, or half asleep in order to mess up is ridiculous...and makes a mockery of this dicussion. I doubt that Dr Sabatini would suggest that this is anything but an intricate procedure that requires not only the aforementioned intimate knowledge of the anatomy of the venom production/conduction system, but the skill to carry out precise, detailed excision of said system. Reports I have read indicate that it is relatively easy for even a knowledgeable veterinarian to either miss a little, or remove some muscle/tissue that is not part of the target. While removing a little extra is no great problem, except for the need for more cosmetic filler, missing a little could be all the difference in the world to the keeper.

Rather than quoting me, why don't you find the facts and link to the cobra incident you mentioned earlier? or how about some links to the reports you claimed you have read? Can you share those with the Fauna community?

 

[hhmoore]

Rather than quoting me, why don't you find the facts and link to the cobra incident you mentioned earlier? or how about some links to the reports you claimed you have read? Can you share those with the Fauna community?

It's not as if I can ask the person in question - he moved out of the state at least 10 years ago, and as of the last time I inquired about him, none of our mutual acquaintances had contact info.
As for the articles/reports I read - I'll be happy to look for them...but there are no guarantees that I'll find them. I probably should start cataloging things like that so I can find them when the subject comes up at a later date.

 

[Junkyard]

THE GLANDS AND SUCH ARE REMOVED AND REPLACED WITH MAN MADE MATERIAL THERES NO WAY IT CAN BE VENOMOUS AGAIN PERIOD..

That is funny Randy, so the video clearly presents itself as a farce, according to your logic. 2 out of 3 voids have venom, I will take my chances with the Ferrari.

Oh yeah, turn off the caps lock please, no need for yelling, we all can read.

 

[Gary O]

Harold probably read it on Tanith Tyrr's site. Tanith is one of them people that go all out for the reptiles. i am not joking she has rescued more venomous snakes then anyone I know.

here is her site
Tanith Tyrr
Snake Getters
www.snakegetters.com

I know her vet did the research surgery and put out that it is not as easy as some say. and gland can be missed.

 

[Lucille]

I can't believe the argument is still going on. After all agreed that physicians and vets make errors, even the best of them, that should have been the end of it.
But then again, in my readings, I seem to remember that people passionately argued at one time that the world was flat.

People will defend the indefensible, I suppose it is human nature. But sadly, there are consequences, and sometimes it is the purchasers of voids not the producers, who may pay the price and a terrible price it is.

 

[SPJ]

So let me see if I am reading this right.
Vipers cannot regenerate even if tissue is missed but elapids can?
Sabatini micro chips his voids?
Gabbys are freehandled? The fangs on those snakes are HUGE and could cause serious damage whether or not they inject venom.
Why void a snake if you cannot guarentee the surgery and state they should be treated as an intact snake? Seems to me that if you follow your own advice, there is no need for the surgery in the first place.

 

[Gary O]

So let me see if I am reading this right.
Vipers cannot regenerate even if tissue is missed but elapids can?
Sabatini micro chips his voids?
Gabbys are freehandled? The fangs on those snakes are HUGE and could cause serious damage whether or not they inject venom.
Why void a snake if you cannot guarentee the surgery and state they should be treated as an intact snake? Seems to me that if you follow your own advice, there is no need for the surgery in the first place.

What I am taking from his postings are he does not want to hurt the business of Sabatini. See if Sabatini was really worried about being sued he could put in his paper work that it has been seen that venomoids repair gland that is missed to become venomois again. But this would also lose him business and he knows this. that is why it is a dance around it to word it were it hides this fact. But leaves him in the clear.

It is simple Sabatini is human and not perfect. the said thing is that it may take a snake he has done the surgery to kiling a huan for him to rethink his selling ways.

I know that voids are not going away but at the same time a vet and a supporter that wants the FACTS out should include these important facts that a vet is human and can make a mistake............

 

[devenomized]

It's not as if I can ask the person in question - he moved out of the state at least 10 years ago, and as of the last time I inquired about him, none of our mutual acquaintances had contact info.
As for the articles/reports I read - I'll be happy to look for them...but there are no guarantees that I'll find them. I probably should start cataloging things like that so I can find them when the subject comes up at a later date.

Thanks Mr. Moore. I would like to see them if you can find them.

 

[devenomized]

I can't believe the argument is still going on. After all agreed that physicians and vets make errors, even the best of them, that should have been the end of it.
But then again, in my readings, I seem to remember that people passionately argued at one time that the world was flat.

People will defend the indefensible, I suppose it is human nature. But sadly, there are consequences, and sometimes it is the purchasers of voids not the producers, who may pay the price and a terrible price it is.

That's why a business owner will hire a lawyer and the lawyer will write a legal liability release form. the seller will require a signature from the buyer. no signature, no sale. signed liability release form means buyer agrees with terms as disclosed. terms are written by laywer to protect the business and the seller. buyer and seller make a decision based on some residual risk. buyer is accountable for their decision.

 

[devenomized]

So let me see if I am reading this right.
Vipers cannot regenerate even if tissue is missed but elapids can?
Sabatini micro chips his voids?
Gabbys are freehandled? The fangs on those snakes are HUGE and could cause serious damage whether or not they inject venom.
Why void a snake if you cannot guarentee the surgery and state they should be treated as an intact snake? Seems to me that if you follow your own advice, there is no need for the surgery in the first place.

A) Reparative regrowth is the ability to regenerate tissue on reptiles. Venomous snakes have that ability. Due to the distance between fangs and venom gland, according to Dr. Fry, it has been proven that Elapids that ONLY had a ductectomy whether partial or full can potentially regrowth duct tissue that can "reconnect" fang to venom gland. However, because on vipers the distance between venom gland and fangs is not as close as elapids, vipers could reconstruct partial tissue, but not sufficient enough to reconnect the gland to the venom duct. This is ONLY possible on elapids and if and ONLY if the venom glands are intact. That's why if a venomous snakes had a full adenectomy (removal of glands), this entire statement is false.

Logic formula:

p --> q only True when p is true and q is true

If the gland is intact after a ductectomy on an Elapid (p), then the snake can potentially regrow duct tissue (q).

B) Venomoid, Inc has been implanting microchips all venomoids sold.

C) Vipers are not free handled behind the table due to what you said; however, Gary claims as well as other people that a few years ago someone was handling a void Gabby. It is what it is, if someone was doing that, it's not done anymore. If the culprit was wearing a hat, then maybe i'm guilty.

D) Only my subjective opinion, but I will guess it is a liability release form.

 

[Bill Stonegate]

OK, Mr. Reina. I'd like to ask a couple questions. One personal, one philosophical.

Why do you think it is a good thing to do this to venomous reptiles? I'm curious about your motivation. Why do you spend time writing posts? I know that is a bit blunt, but it is a sincere question.

Second question: Who (or what) benefits from this? What benefit to society, the animals, and the people who buy them does this provide?

 

[devenomized]

What I am taking from his postings are he does not want to hurt the business of Sabatini. See if Sabatini was really worried about being sued he could put in his paper work that it has been seen that venomoids repair gland that is missed to become venomois again. But this would also lose him business and he knows this. that is why it is a dance around it to word it were it hides this fact. But leaves him in the clear.

It is simple Sabatini is human and not perfect. the said thing is that it may take a snake he has done the surgery to kiling a huan for him to rethink his selling ways.

I know that voids are not going away but at the same time a vet and a supporter that wants the FACTS out should include these important facts that a vet is human and can make a mistake............

Gary,

I would like to correct you. Please do NOT make false statements without any knowledge. Any opinions I have stated were my personal examples to simply answer Mr. Moore and your questions. If you want a concrete answer, please turn your head away from the monitor and pick up the phone and call (631) 745-7746 . Ask Dr. Sabatini directly so you don't have to dance around this for the rest of your life, then post the answer. I'll give you some rope, but I aint gonna pull you out my friend.

Nobody wants to kill anyone or cause harm Gary. What's wrong with you? Why is it that you can discuss things in a mature manner and you always have to go in the deep end. You might have to move to England where voids are against the law that way you can say you saved a lot of people. Who has died? Who has gotten killed from a venomoid? Please let me see some real actual evidence about that? What snake sold by Dr. Sabatini since 2000 has been able to produce, inject, or partially grow anything?

Finally, I understand what you want as far as stating veterinary malpractice in a document. I understand your point of view and the only thing i can say and only as an opinion is that document represents a legal liability release form. I'll say it again before someone quotes me to construct a well craft reply. It is ONLY my subjective opinion that the document presented to buyer when a venomoid is paid is a liability release form.

Now, can i call Jeremy myself? sure. Can i find out for you? maybe. Why is it that i won't do it? Because since 2004 the topic of venomoids has been a hot item that several people like to express their opinions here, but when i asked anyone to give me a call or call someone or stop by the table to ask the question directly, nobody can do it, why? I've done plenty to put up information on my website, research for facts, find out information from Dr. Fry, contact AVMA, contact multiple venomoid owners and I even have spoken to Rich Richie. I did all of that because i had an interest in providing info to the general public so the confusion about voids can stop. These issues that you are concerned about should be directly addressed with the business in question. call or email Dr. Sabatini and tell him Christian sent you.


I think I even gave you myphone number Gary and you never called me.

 

[devenomized]

OK, Mr. Reina. I'd like to ask a couple questions. One personal, one philosophical.

Why do you think it is a good thing to do this to venomous reptiles? I'm curious about your motivation. Why do you spend time writing posts? I know that is a bit blunt, but it is a sincere question.

Second question: Who (or what) benefits from this? What benefit to society, the animals, and the people who buy them does this provide?

Well, I really haven't been very active on these boards. I've been really busy in my personal and professional life and i have a little bit of time before I start another long term committment to complete a graduate program. In my free time, I like to spend time with the family, and look at some boards that I haven't looked up for years. Back in 2004 I spent a lot of time building my website and I thought I did a good job at providing information to people. My #1 motivation is to promote an alternative for reptile hobbysts who are interested in venomous snakes. Even though I do help Dr. Sabatini run his table, I designed his website, and I do consider him a friend, what I have done with my website has nothing to do with his business. I'm not an employee, I do not get paid, and I don't get anything for posting here.

When I was a little kid I always wanted to work with snakes, I wanted to be a herpetologist since I was about 8 or 10 yrs old. However, my life took a different turn and I'm information security officer which is a lot different from a herpetologist. When I learned about venomoids, I was extremely interested in these procedures and how such magnificent animals can now be studied and kept in captivity in a safe manner. It was that facination with venomoids back in 2002-2003 that gave me the energy to learn about them and create my website as well as post information here and in other websites. I strongly believe it is only an option for buyers, an alternative, a choice. I also believe that it promotes safety if done by a licensed DVM. I have seen people that have come to us at Hamburg with missing fingers that have given use their venomous collections and asked if we could devenomize their snakes. Normally Dr. Sabatini doesn't do that at all, but he has done it for some people. It is somethin to admire to see an individual so passionate about venomous snakes and happy to receive his venomoid horn viper which bit him and the reason this person is missing a finger. I love snakes, ball pythons, large constrictors and arboreals, but i think venomous snakes are the most amazing of all. I truly think a venomoid is an option that people should consider.

I think there is a monetary benefit for Dr. Sabatini as well as other licensed vets or people who have been performing these complicated procedures. Although, I know in the case of Raymond Hoser in Australia, the guy behind a huge petition against venomoids, he truly is passionate about what he does. His philosophy is different and I do not agree with him, but I only hope as a non-licensed individual with tremendous experience that he considers getting certified or getting some type of licensed to make his practice more legitimate.

I think venomoids provide a significant benefit to reptile hobbysts who want to keep these animals because is legal but they keep them as pets. I think it is another safety precaution in addition to several precaution already in place by people who own hots. I have a lot of respect for people who have worked with hots and who choose to keep them. I know they follow protocols to keep teh snakes safe as well as their families and communities. I just believe that a venomoid is an added protection and it helps mitigate the risk.

I also think venomoids are great alternatives at zoos. I think a zoo can mitigate the risk associated with the potential incidents of an envenomization by using venomoids. Dr. Sabatini has sold numerous venmoids to Zoos in the USA, Canada, and Latin America. YOu will be very surprised to see the number of animals that are sold online and outside ofthe hamburg show. there are people that want venomoids but due to all these discussions and opinions they want to stay quiet about it. I don't think like that. Venomoids by licensed vets are not against the law and I strongly see them as an alternative and I think I have the right to express my opinion, accept others, and understand other points of view.

Finally, the number one reason as ironic as it sounds based on our recent discussions about a document that seems more confusing at defining what Gary and Mr. Moore want to read, the #1 benefits of venomoids is added safety to our community, our reptile owners, and I know the venomoid snakes do fine in captivity although the surgery is invassive.

the snake needs about 2 weeks to heal before feeding.

anyway, sorry for the long reply.

 

[Bill Stonegate]

No prob, thank you for an honest answer. I don't agree with all of it, but there might be some hope for you yet...

 

[devenomized]

I'm not a lawyer, but this is a link to a release of waiver & liability for a horse show.

http://www.stuorg.iastate.edu/bbhorseshow/Block and Bridle Horse Show participant waiver 2008.pdf

Maybe the document provided to buyers serves a similar purpose. protecting the business and the vet?

 

[devenomized]

No prob, thank you for an honest answer. I don't agree with all of it, but there might be some hope for you yet...

I gotta get some sleep. Like I said, I don't get paid for posting. night all!

 

[Lucille]

That's why a business owner will hire a lawyer and the lawyer will write a legal liability release form. the seller will require a signature from the buyer. no signature, no sale. signed liability release form means buyer agrees with terms as disclosed. terms are written by laywer to protect the business and the seller. buyer and seller make a decision based on some residual risk. buyer is accountable for their decision.

This is clearly an admission that there IS something to worry about in voids, which is what many of us have been saying all along.

People don't spend money on lawyers unless there is a reason, and to get a release of liability drawn up by an attorney, clearly the seller is admitting that in fact there are situations where he may be liable and wants to be released from responsibility.

 

[devenomized]

This is clearly an admission that there IS something to worry about in voids, which is what many of us have been saying all along.

People don't spend money on lawyers unless there is a reason, and to get a release of liability drawn up by an attorney, clearly the seller is admitting that in fact there are situations where he may be liable and wants to be released from responsibility.

I do not want to insult your intelligence, but I hope you have realized by now that my responses to any document provided by "Venomoid, Inc" are nothing but my own subjective opinion. Do you own a business? or do you have any knowledge about business law? What you have shown "clearly" is ignorance at thinking a business wouldn't consult with a lawyer regarding many aspects of its operation. This includes liability, risk, penalties, regulations, laws, etc. Do you even proof read what you type?

We're talking about a business vs. John Smith selling his captive breed copperheads that he butchered in his basement. John Smith might want to have people sign off on something so nobody knows about his series of inaccurate procedures on the copperheads; however, a release of liability is a common practice and if you don't know then you have just learned something new.

What do you think happens when you take your cat for a surgical procedure to a vet? I'm afraid that if you do not understand these basic business practices that you may not have a great baseline to be discussing anything here, but I will read your posts since that's your right to express your opinion. I will listen to anyone.

"Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even to the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story. "