warning on bakers boas!

[John E Dove]

If I was your customer and I was buying 4 to 5 snakes off you a year and was 1 of your favorite cutomers would you not refund me my money back?

NO!!!!

I have a couple of repeat customers who I have even developed a relationship with but they know I have terms of service and if they violate them it is on their head.

You do not seek a just resolve here, you think you are entitled to special treatment. -

 

[Seamus Haley]

If you buy a high end Boa, it should feed for you.

Unless the customer screws that up on their end. And I don't think the price really comes into it. If someone buys something that has no reported feeding issues and does everything right themselves then... yeah. If they buy a picky feeder and then fail to find the trigger, that's on them.

If Cory only had the Snow, that would be one thing, but the guy has several other Boas, that are all feeding fine.

Stronger feed response from individuals or individuals that are more tolerant of conditions edging on poor. Too small a pool of animals to really call it. If he had a few dozen animals all in identical conditions and problem free, it'd be evidence. A few boas unfortunately can't pin the issue down either way.

Then there's also the way a hesitant, slow or picky feeder is treated in the feeding attempts. Attempting to force feed after not eating for two weeks upon delivery? That's definitely jumping the gun.

I haven't seen an answer I liked about the vet either. The buyer is here and adamant that money is not an issue, but this animal apparently never saw a vet despite visible weight loss. Too rich to care about the money but too cheap to take it to a vet... It's an attitude I want to yell at.

If Baker did not identify the Boa as a picky feeder until the last minute, the day of or day before shipping, that is not giving the buyer notice of a POOR feeder, but a PICKY feeder, once the sale has been consumated. Totally different than if the buyer was informed, via the ad, and in the first email, first conversation, etc., that the Boa is a picky feeder.There is a fine line between selling a poor conditioned animal, with full disclosure, and selling a poor conditioned animal, notifying the buyer in a manner that is less than completly up front, and done from day one, to make a buck.

I agree with you there. There's an enormous difference between last minute information and an animal advertised that way up front.

 

[John E Dove]

Mr. Berensmann,
I know you figured you had some claim to special treatment when you came to the BOI but look at it objectively as the seller for a moment in simple terms.

You sell me a boa.
Eating well or not I am willing to try that animal. No one is twisting my arm to buy it, my money my choice.
I get the boa mess with it for a couple of weeks and cannot get it to eat.
I call you for help.
Now you already told me what was working for you but you like a good breeder try to work me through some other things I can try.
I try everything I you told me and, 40 days after I get it, it is still not eating.
You say, Send it back and I’ll cover you.
I say, Hey this is July in Southeastern Colorado, our temps get into the mid to high 90s almost every day. In the trucks it is even hotter and we have been having most days over 100. I can’t ship him it will roast.

Should you be held responsible at that point if the animal still dies under my care?
IMO, NO you would not be liable. I made the choice not to risk shipping it therefore I assumed responsibility.

Now if we look at the pics submitted by Mr. Baker of the same snake it looked pretty good so it must have been eating for him. Mr. Baker told you it was a picky eater and you made the purchase knowing the facts.
We don’t know if the got chilled on the trip up there, if you were messing up on the husbandry or what happened for sure, but it did not eat for you.
You were given the chance to return the snake outside of the TOS but chose to keep it. That nullified the offer of refund or replacement.

Would the baby have survived the trip back? We will never know, but the temps were not all that much colder than they were on the 8th of October when the snake was shipped to you. It could have been that shipping cold that was the culprit, I have heard of this happening.

If the snake was chilled during the first shipping and damage so it would not eat it would not have mattered if you had sent it back or not it would have died. If it had died in transit back to Mr. Baker in November the only difference would have been the fact that you had a claim for recompense.

No one is entitled to special treatment, that is at the discretion of the seller and is either freely given or not. If it is not freely given you go by the TOS. By the TOS of Baker’s Boas you have no claim. When you were offered special treatment outside the TOS you refused so you have no claim.

“You break it you buy it”, comes to mind.

 

[Miss Tuniwha]

Why in 4 months did it not go to the vet? I don't think I saw this one answered yet.

 

[David Reid]

Another assumption being made in regards to the Temp and Humidity guages readings is this: If I take a tub out and take a pic, it could be 2-10 minutes of elapsed time from the time I take the tub out, and get everything set up and snap the pic....so an 85 degree temp could easily drop to 75 degrees in that amount of time. Since the hide was not completly in the pic, it is hard to tell how big it is, but that is a SMALL Boa. I am going to make an assumption of my own, maybe the hide is leftover from his early purchases, and his other Boas used the hide and fed with gusto, and he is recycling the hide for this Boa.

Like it or not, there IS a difference in the price of a normal Boa and Snow, which DOES make the death of this snake a bit different. I am pretty darn sure if the Boa that died was a normal, a replacement would have been sent immediatly.

This is a blanket statement, and not an attack on Baker: I am also not going that far out on a limb, to say, that if there was a non feeding normal Boa, that it would probably have been allowed to die, or been thrown in the freezer because it financially was not worth the extra time and effort to nurse it back to health, if possible. How many would cull a Snow Boa, a Caramel Ball, a Clown Ball, when they could sell it for a "deal" and still make good money on it?

Like it or not, it IS a money thing.

Dave

 

[David Reid]

If the Boa looked healthy in Mr. Baker's care, and was noted to be a picky eater, and Mr. Baker advised the new owner to force feed it, who is to say HOW it was eating with Mr. Baker? Was in feeding on its own, on pinkie mice?

 

[Seamus Haley]

Given the lack of concrete information about a few subjects, I guess I'm just kind of giving it the occam's razor treatment.

Given equally valid explanations, the simplest is the right one.

I think it's simpler and more likely that a moderately experienced buyer didn't realize what they could be getting into by buying a problem feeder.

I think it's more complex and less likely that a dealer identified this animal as predestined to die, advertised it for sale, shipped it out and then waited until the weather wouldn't allow for return shipping before making an offer to take it back.

Both are possible. One just feels more plausible to me.

 

[Robert Baker]

FINAL FINAL RESPONSE

Here is an email sent to Cory before the boa was shipped to him. It implies the boa can be picky. We also had phone conversations before (like 1 - 2 weeks) prior to shipping, regarding its eating issues.


Re: Baker's Boas <[email protected]> ViewThursday, October 2, 2008 10:17:19 PMTo:Cory Berensmann <[email protected]>
Cc:

Find:

Cory,

Hello. That female is awesome. I love her. If I did not have so many nice sunglows I would keep her myself. I can let her go for $600. I could ship her with the male snow. Just pay me back when you can. Let me know on her.

I will ship them when ever works for you.

Also, you may want to have live pinkies or fuzzies for that male snow ready. He only takes live and can be a turd sometimes. The female will eat anything!

It is starting to get cold here too. I need to move to Florida.

Later,

Robert Baker
www.bakersboas.com



----- Original Message ----
From: Cory Berensmann
To: Robert Baker
Wednesday, October 1, 2008 4:47:47 AM
Subject:

Hi Robert, how much would you sale me that DH SUNGLOW FEMALE (poss super) in litter #5, female #2 for? I just love her color and markings, let me know. I think I owe you $ 900. i'm sending you a check out on thursday should be there on monday. The temp is already getting down in the mid 30's it snuked in on me dam it , so I need to get you paid up and get the snakes up here before it gets to cold, let me know about that female. THANK YOU!

FAR NORTH BOAS!


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I repeat.....

"I gave Cory full disclosure on the boa's condition and what it was eating. He still wanted the boa. Cory indicated it was not eating well for him over a month later. I offered to take the boa back! He did not send the boa back. Now 129 days later he wants his money back. "

Look at the pics of the snow boa I sent Cory, does it look malnourished? Hell NO. It was eating pinkie mice. It was eating more than one at a time. If it looked sick why did he not say something 100+ days ago?

Regardless of everything said, I gave him a chance to return the boa back ALIVE. This would have at least given me the chance to save it, Cory would have had his money, my name would have not been dragged through the mug! This is a sad situation for both parties. Cory is a good guy, and I truly mean that. I just wish he would have handled the situation differently.

Anyway, I am sick of the lies. This email should put the nail in the coffin.

Please do not use the inexperience keeper excuse. Inexperience keepers do not have websites, 6+ boas for over a year. By accident anyone would know enough to do what is best for a boa's health. Also, breeders have no control of how the buyer takes care of their pets. Next, you have a right to buy a pet from anyone. If you are not happy with the Terms & Conditions listed ....Don't Buy From Them.....then complain after the fact on top of it. Finally, make sure you have facts too not just recalled conversations from 4 months ago if you want to slander someone!

Thanks for those who have agreed with my side of things or atleast understood where I am coming from.

 

[David Reid]

Calling a snake a live only feeder and a turd, is a FAR cry from saying it is a picky eater. If you are calling that statement full disclosure, I would tend to argue that it is not full disclosure. I would like to hear from Cory, about what was said about the condition of the Boa and its eating habits, based on the Baker phone conversations.

If I sell a snake as a rat pup eater, that means the day it gets there, it will eat rat pups. It does not mean that you may have to buy a pinkie pump, force feed it, brain the food, etc.

 

[Wolfy-hound]

Theresa, If I was your customer and I was buying 4 to 5 snakes off you a year and was 1 of your favorite cutomers would you not refund me my money back?

No I would not, especially after 129 days, and after I already offered to take the snake back before it died. Not at all.
If you were a very very favored customer, and were very nice, and did not demand a refund for a animal I told you was a picky eater, I'd probably make you a good deal on your next snake or so. But that's as far as I would go. Sorry.

 

[Robert Baker]

Who said it was full disclosure on the email? I gave him full disclosure over the phone and he knows it. I told him what I knew about the snake based on my experiences with it. The email verifies we talked about the live pinkies and implied it's known eating issues. Look at the pics it ate for me!

Dave, so why did he not return the boa or attempt to return it when he found out it was not eating? ....the problem would have been solved.

Also, if you are feeding a snake the day you get it you should not own a snake.

I did not buy the pinkie pump, force feed, or brain the food....the buyer did. I can not control the buyers actions.

Calling a snake a live only feeder and a turd, is a FAR cry from saying it is a picky eater. If you are calling that statement full disclosure, I would tend to argue that it is not full disclosure. I would like to hear from Cory, about what was said about the condition of the Boa and its eating habits, based on the Baker phone conversations.

If I sell a snake as a rat pup eater, that means the day it gets there, it will eat rat pups. It does not mean that you may have to buy a pinkie pump, force feed it, brain the food, etc.

 

[David Reid]

I never said anything about actually feeding the snake the day you get it, I said it WOULD EAT the day you get it. I know alot of people who feed snakes, especially babies, the day after or two days after getting it. I actually have done in person transactions, and fed the next day.

Robert, the pics you posted show a nice looking snake, however, there is no way to know if the snake was feeding on its own, or being force fed at your place.

I guess you and Cory are the only ones who really know what went on, what was agreed upon, what was said, what was promised, and who broke their promise. The facts are, someone paid $1700 for a healthy Boa, and it never fed, and is now dead. I think there is fault to go around.

 

[jayefbe]

Hey Robert, Corey stated that you had encouraged him to force feed the snow and purchase the pinky pump. Is that true? It seems as though you are denying that part of his claim.

 

[Jink122]

I've bought boas from Robert before back in 2005. Wow... such drama. Sorry to hear about it guys, hope u can work it out.

 

[lanceheads]

Jink122
Your full name is required to post on here.
Thanks!

Randal Berry

 

[garweft]

This is a blanket statement, and not an attack on Baker: I am also not going that far out on a limb, to say, that if there was a non feeding normal Boa, that it would probably have been allowed to die, or been thrown in the freezer because it financially was not worth the extra time and effort to nurse it back to health, if possible. How many would cull a Snow Boa, a Caramel Ball, a Clown Ball, when they could sell it for a "deal" and still make good money on it?

Like it or not, it IS a money thing.

One eyed snakes, no eyed snakes, spinal kinks, facial deformities...... we see it over and over. Less than perfect specimens of high end morphs get passed on at reduced prices to get whatever you can out of them. They eventually get added back into the captive breeding population when they should have been culled. All for the sake of money.

You both are wrong too many times for me to keep strait or to worry about.

Robert - A 6 month old, problem feeding boa, that is still so small that it will only take mouse pinkies should not have been sold. If you said you would be there no matter the outcome, you should back that up. If that is the only proven disclosure of that animals feeding problems you have... it's not really full disclosure... it's pretty shady really. What will a 09 snow cost you anyway? If your producing them yourself it's essentially free... no worse than slightly missing the odds. If the OP had bought 6 snakes from you in the last year, don't you think he would have been coming back for more. Successful customers are very often repeat customers.

Cory - You needed to send that snake back the first time he asked for it. Always get written proof of any deal made. Even if it was originally made on the phone tell them you need a conformation email laying out your agreed upon terms. You made a lot of mistakes that people with little experience dealing with reptiles often make. I don't need to lay them all out since everyone else seemed to do a good job of doing it already.

 

[KelliH]

Robert - A 6 month old, problem feeding boa, that is still so small that it will only take mouse pinkies should not have been sold. If you said you would be there no matter the outcome, you should back that up. If that is the only proven disclosure of that animals feeding problems you have... it's not really full disclosure... it's pretty shady really. What will a 09 snow cost you anyway? If your producing them yourself it's essentially free... no worse than slightly missing the odds. If the OP had bought 6 snakes from you in the last year, don't you think he would have been coming back for more. Successful customers are very often repeat customers.

I have to say I agree with all of these points; excellent post.

 

[Ed Clark]

Hmmmm, that snow boa was in no way a healthy snake and should never have been sold to anyone.

 

[KelliH]

5-6 months old when shipped and still feeding on pink mice... obviously not a good feeder and almost sounds like it may have been a non feeder. By the time a boa is 6 months old it should be feeding on half grown mice.

I do understand why it wasn't shipped back - it was too cold to be shipping a reptile! The lows were in the teens and even single digits some nights! It's not a good idea to ship in those temps.

I do question why the animal was not taken to see a vet. However, it really sounds like this was just a bad/weak/non or very poor feeder from the time it was born and it's highly debatable whether a vet could have saved this snake or not.

 

[hhmoore]

And people wonder why I don't want to deal via telephone, or why (if I do speak on the phone) I follow up with an email rehash for confirmation. :