warning on bakers boas!

[John E Dove]

The first thing I check with a customer if they have a problem is their husbandry; personally I won't sell a snake that is not eating with gusto. Any picky eaters after three months are culled and saved to feed species that may start better on snake prey. I also offer a 30 day money back or exchange for any snake we produce if it is not eating in 30 days provided the buyer allows us to help figure out why starting week 2. But the snake has to be back with us within 37 days of the sale. I know my snakes and if they are not eating for someone then that someone is doing something wrong.
I am also careful to keep and store all emails so there is a clear record of what was said by everyone. I will not do phone sales or phone advice, there is too much chance of someone forgetting something or misunderstanding what was said. I will talk to my customers and those I purchase from but then, as Mr. Moore mentioned earlier, there is a repeat of the information portion of conversation via email to be sure what I said was clear.
But those are my policies and I cannot hold another seller to my TOS.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In this case though the emails are scarce and we have to assume that the buyer knew what he was getting into in spite of his claim of being a neophyte. He may not be able to spell but he is apparently in communication with experienced breeders and has internet access so he should have the ability to research.

We do not know for sure what went wrong but the buyer was informed prior to shipping, we do not know when for sure or how well, that this snake was a picky/finicky/problem (what ever you want to call it) eater. The buyer had the option to back out of the deal prior to shipping. IMO, the deal is not done for the buyer until the snake is in their hands and the TOS has expired.

We also know that the temps for shipping were less than optimal when the snake was shipped to Alaska. Both parties had to be aware of this and must have agreed to take the risk because the shipment went through.

We do know that the buyer had problems and was provided assistance from the seller, good or bad we also do not know for sure due to the lack of detailed in print records.

We also know that the buyer suggested on Nov 13 that he felt he needed to return the snake.
On the same day 3 hours later the seller extended his TOS and agreed to have the snake shipped back to him in exchange for a full refund or replacement. The buyer did not follow through and now claims that it was too cold to ship it back because it could have harmed the snake.
Well the snake died from not being shipped back, how much more harm could there have been from shipping it in cold weather.

Should the snake have been sold? That is debatable but consensus will never be reached here given the diversity of people and policies in this hobby/business.

IMO the bottom line boils down to a novice buyer biting off more than he could chew and refusing the Heimlich Maneuver when he was choking on the wad in his throat.
Shaka, when the wall fell.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Ed, that wasn't what I asked for, but thanks for the effort. I asked if Robert admitted to advising Cory to force feed. Maybe the question got lost in all of this other stuff?



Robert, did you advise Corey to force feed this snake 2 weeks after he received it?

 

[jayefbe]

I know, that was posted early in the thread. Robert has been here almost every day and has not denied it.

Actually, Robert implied in a post that he had not encouraged force feeding or using a pinky pump. I asked him if he was outright denying what Cory had said with no response.

 

[Ed Clark]

Actually, Robert implied in a post that he had not encouraged force feeding or using a pinky pump. I asked him if he was outright denying what Cory had said with no response.

So I guess we are to draw our own conclusions about the pinky pump and force feeding if he wont answer that question?

I asked a couple times if that snow boa was $1700.00 as stated earlier in the thread...no answer again.

The fact that there was another boa in the deal that was valued at $600.00 made me wonder if that was part of the $1700.00 deal or was that $600.00 on top of the $1700.00? no answer again.

Clarity Robert would help us all figure this out better.

 

[Bill & Amy]

So I guess we are to draw our own conclusions about the pinky pump and force feeding if he wont answer that question?

I asked a couple times if that snow boa was $1700.00 as stated earlier in the thread...no answer again.

The fact that there was another boa in the deal that was valued at $600.00 made me wonder if that was part of the $1700.00 deal or was that $600.00 on top of the $1700.00? no answer again.

Clarity Robert would help us all figure this out better.

The same way we have to come to our own conclusions in your BOI threads Ed.

 

[Ed Clark]

The same way we have to come to our own conclusions in your BOI threads Ed.

What does that have to do with Robert Baker and Cory, the topic of this thread?

Or are you trying to turn this thread into a personal battle between you and I?

 

[lanceheads]

What does that have to do with Robert Baker and Cory, the topic of this thread?

Or are you trying to turn this thread into a personal battle between you and I?

Bill usually ventures off topic to make it personal Ed.

Randal Berry

 

[hhmoore]

Knock it off, all 3 of you. The sideline sniping is not going to be tolerated.

 

[reticguy76]

wow, i just read this thread, i cant believe it went on this long and to this extreme.
in this "business" (well not for me anymore, as it is just a hobby these days) we are supposed to stick together and help each other, as well as buyers, out in any way possible. when i bred my retics, i never had any conditional return time. if ever the snake didnt eat regularly, or some other health issue that even had a remote chance of being related to me, i would always refund or trade for another animal. i had a similar experience to this, with retic i sold. the retic ate pretty regularly for me, until it had 8 meals and 3 shed. i sold it to a guy and warned him that this retic (that he picked out) wasnt a clockwork eater like the others, but had eaten a good amount of times and was active. he had it for just over 7 months and never took food for him regularly. from what i could gather and see from pics, the husbandry seemed good. well finally the snake died. i didnt even hesitate to give him his money back, and i autopsied the snake and had a slightly deformed/irregular heart muscle. that was all i found (as i am in veterinary medicine). is that why the snake died, who knows. of course, i screen any and all prospective buys. i have refused sales more than sold because i didnt get a good vibe that some people dont know what they are doing, at least enough to satisfy my selling to them. it comes down to morals and ethics of "business transactions" from both buyer and seller

 

[Seamus Haley]

it comes down to morals and ethics of "business transactions" from both buyer and seller

An issue like this one certainly isn't an ethical absolute.

First and foremost, there's some disagreement about exactly what was said and when, since the conversations happened over the phone and there's no recorded copy to review, it comes down to the subjective memories of both parties. It's pretty automatic that it can't be sorted out with precision under the circumstances.

Secondly, while the exact discussions between the buyer and the seller would tend to skew opinion one way or the other depending on the details, this is really a question of the responsibility for communication and education. The seller said they identified the animal as a problem feeder. The buyer identified themselves as experienced enough to handle a problem feeder. Given the terminal conclusion for the animal in question, someone involved failed to appropriately judge things. The animal may not have been judged to be as problematic as it turned out to be, the buyer may have judged themselves as better equipped to deal with it than they actually were- or it's quite likely that some combination of the two caused the eventual result.

Many excellent, upstanding dealers will go out of their way to make sure their customer is educated and prepared for the purchase they are making. That conversation does not itself inherently make a dealer good or bad though, it's simply an expression of a person who's invested in the well being of the animals and encouraging a happy, satisfied customer. While a dealer can choose not to sell to a customer they feel is unqualified or inexperienced, they do not have a responsibility to do so- consumers bear more of the burden for knowing if a given animal is something they should be purchasing. If a buyer insists that they're capable of handling whatever the animal in question is; species, health issues, age, size, whatever... Then it's on them.

I've walked away from dealers who tried to give me the third degree when I was making a purchase. I am not unappreciative of their position but after I inform them that I really, really don't need to spend the next twenty minutes with them grilling me about other species I have kept, where I went to college and how I have an enclosure set up- if they keep pushing, I take my business elsewhere. There's a fine line for dealers to walk with a customer who claims competence. If they cross it, they end up insulting their buyer.

 

[Dustan]

I personally have a really hard time believing that an 'unhealthy' Boa, would survive for fours months, while enduring the stress load from a inexperienced keeper using a pinky pump/press.

That being said, the snake could have maybe eaten for him, say, a couple times after the pump feeding but then quickly went down hill for other reasons. OR it may have had this 'issue' since day one, and Robert decided that he would sneak a sale in. That seems pretty far fetched.

My conclusion is that the 'inexperienced' keeper is at fault. Looking at the photo's supplied, I'd say the basic Boa needs weren't being met. The tub is to big, and the temperatures are to low regardless of what he said. With the thermometer being placed directly over the location of the heat matt, it is pretty clear that the temperatures it is reading should be alot higher, assuming the "hot spot" is 94. Don't you think? Also 94 seems quite hot when the uth is taking up half of the surface area.

I am also pretty sure that the Boa is dead in the 2 pictures while in the tub. That whole set up is wrong. The dead snake has a few live pinky friends though.

 

[jayefbe]

wow, i just read this thread, i cant believe it went on this long and to this extreme.
in this "business" (well not for me anymore, as it is just a hobby these days) we are supposed to stick together and help each other, as well as buyers, out in any way possible. when i bred my retics, i never had any conditional return time. if ever the snake didnt eat regularly, or some other health issue that even had a remote chance of being related to me, i would always refund or trade for another animal. i had a similar experience to this, with retic i sold. the retic ate pretty regularly for me, until it had 8 meals and 3 shed. i sold it to a guy and warned him that this retic (that he picked out) wasnt a clockwork eater like the others, but had eaten a good amount of times and was active. he had it for just over 7 months and never took food for him regularly. from what i could gather and see from pics, the husbandry seemed good. well finally the snake died. i didnt even hesitate to give him his money back, and i autopsied the snake and had a slightly deformed/irregular heart muscle. that was all i found (as i am in veterinary medicine). is that why the snake died, who knows. of course, i screen any and all prospective buys. i have refused sales more than sold because i didnt get a good vibe that some people dont know what they are doing, at least enough to satisfy my selling to them. it comes down to morals and ethics of "business transactions" from both buyer and seller

That's great and all, but was there a purpose to your post other than tooting your own horn?

 

[Wolfy-hound]

I believe that the boa was $1700, and the 2nd boa was $600. The first was paid for, but the 2nd was not.
That's what I believe I read in the thread, and I'm very unsure what it has to do with anything, other than the OP still owes money that he said at once point he WOULD pay, and at another he said he would NOT.
I really don't think it matters if it was $100 snake, or a $5000 snake. The buyer said he wanted it, after being told, and was given a chance to return it, when temps were near the same as when it was shipped up.
If the temps were fine to get the snake TO him, why was it too cold to ship him BACK?

 

[David Reid]

I see it this way: there were mistakes made by both sides, if I was deciding on this case as an impartial judge, I would say that Cory should send the money he still owes on the DH female, and Baker should send him a free male Albino Het Snow or Anery Het Snow next year, or if he has any, this year.

 

[Miss Tuniwha]

If the temps were fine to get the snake TO him, why was it too cold to ship him BACK?

cuz he wanted it silly.


haven't you noticed? When it is convenient for you, you are more then happy to do something. When it is an inconvenience.. you look for a different rout.


(and no I don't mean YOU, I mean, people in general these days)

 

[David Reid]

OR, one party was an experienced shipper, and one was not....

 

[Miss Tuniwha]

OR, one party was an experienced shipper, and one was not....

it just takes one question and following directions to ship.. I know I have only shipped a couple times..


First time.. I asked someone.. did what they told me..

and what do you know..


they were properly shipped.


so not being an "experienced shipper" does not hold much weight. IMO

 

[KelliH]

Originally Posted by Wolfy-hound View Post
If the temps were fine to get the snake TO him, why was it too cold to ship him BACK?

cuz he wanted it silly.


haven't you noticed? When it is convenient for you, you are more then happy to do something. When it is an inconvenience.. you look for a different rout.


(and no I don't mean YOU, I mean, people in general these days)

The snake was shipped to him in October. Maybe it was a tad warmer in October than it was in December. Just a thought.

 

[Miss Tuniwha]

The snake was shipped to him in October. Maybe it was a tad warmer in October than it was in December. Just a thought.

Not according to the chart for the monthly weather stats.. showed about the same weather..


do I feel it was safe in the FIRST place to ship? Oh no.. He should have made a deposit, and had it held till the weather was safer.

but I PERSONALLY feel that using the weather as a reason to send it back is a cop out

at this point either way..

who cares.. too late, deed is done (or not in this case) cant be changed..

I am merely pointing out my opinions.. just like everyone else.

 

[KelliH]

Not according to the chart for the monthly weather stats.. showed about the same weather..

It looked warmer to me, especially at the beginning of the month... there were several days in the 40's in October. I still think it's too cold to ship when it gets below freezing at night, and normally will not unless the customer insists.

You're right though, we are all just expressing our personal opinions at this point.