Info on record / Debbie Prince

[myminskins]

Is he experienced with reptiles? I find it odd that he only just learned about how IBD is most often diagnosed AFTER he sent out the smears. Does no one else find that odd??

Just to put it plainly, there are quite a few diseases that have many of the same symptoms as IBD, most reptile vets know it is hard to diagnose. So why would he only just learn about the biopsy with your case? Seems like it is an important subject for a competent reptile vet to be well aquainted with.

Maybe it seems odd because that is not what happened? He was ready to put the animal down and told me you cannot tell with blood conclusively but he wanted to talk with the expert Dr Jacobsen .
They wanted to try the blood 1st . It cannot rule out IBD but possibly could have caught it in the smears .
It wasnt caught ... as has been stated by berry a bp can carry ibd for months and so the only way to rule it out is to biopsy the brain in this case since that is most likely spot as indicated by neuro symptoms . If you do some reading on the thread you can see where Debbie requsted the blood smears even though it is not likely to show up and cannot be conclusively ruled out with blood smear negative .
the vet is knowledgable and not so arrogant as many to think they know all the answers thus he has been in consult with the expert on IBD Dr Jacobsen.
Lord knows I wish there was a test for it without the brain being removed . We have a lot to loose . I know the snake is damaged ....I hope it is simply due to the obvious....but we just couldnt risk bringing her back home because of the chance of IBD . Not really so weird and complicated .
Toni

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

why are the vets you are working with, yours, and Dr. Jacobsen not trying live liver biopsy first? The last IBD thread, i believe it was brought to everyones attention that tests on live liver could be done, and could be conclusive?

I will have to go back and read those threads....

Why are they focusing solely on the brain tissues, and specifically needing them? Just curious!

 

[lanceheads]

Toni,
Dr. Southerland is a very competent Vet.
It is my hope that you and Debbie come to some reasonable conclusion.


Randal Berry

 

[myminskins]

From the beginning Toni called a bunch of vets in her area and this was the only one that would see the snake. If I'm understanding correctly the vet is not a reptile specialist but was willing to help where others weren't. As he is currently working with Dr. Jacobsen to figure out what is wrong with the snake I'm sure if it's something else they will catch it.

He is a reptile vet . He sees other animals as well . I found him by doing a searh for reptile vets in Arkansas . He is very patient and very careful about following the advice of the expert on IBD and is not incompetent by a long shot .
He would not make any decisions until he did consult with Dr Jacobsen .

I have learned there a couple other reptile vets in the Little Rock area but see no reason for a 2nd opinion . She is in good hands IMO and he is not biased . So as far as this goes his opinion will have to surfice and of course any test results from the lab or Dr Jacobsen.

 

[147boas]

Quick question.

What competent and practiced reptile vet sends blood smears to diagnose IBD, and only later learns that IBD can only be truly diagnosed by several organ biopsies??

in some cases it shows up in blood that is the first step so i do think you need to check your facts

 

[myminskins]

why are the vets you are working with, yours, and Dr. Jacobsen not trying live liver biopsy first? The last IBD thread, i believe it was brought to everyones attention that tests on live liver could be done, and could be conclusive?

I will have to go back and read those threads....

Why are they focusing solely on the brain tissues, and specifically needing them? Just curious!

The snake is in such poor shape it is very unlikely that the animal would survive the live biopsy and uncertain if it would even be conclusive because the symptoms are neuro...the only way to make for sure is if the brain is looked at as it is the place where the damage is a known .
The cost of a live biopsy is going to be around 600 with the snake unlikely to survive and the liver may not be a good source since the snake ate and defected ....
The cost of a brain biopsy which would certainly cause death but be the only conclusive test at this time with the symptoms would be approx 300.
I really dont want to put the animal through a live biopsy because it would not rule it out sinc ethey cannot do live biopsy of the brain . I think at this point Dr Sutherland who is very compassionate about this animal is hoping she could possibly improve and dreading putting her down with the knowledge it could be negative . At the same time if her condition is not going to improve....is it the right thing to put her down and go ahead .
This is not easy by a long shot .It is heartbreaking . I dont want her to suffer...and at the same time I need an answer to the IBD question .
We wanted to give her time to shed and then my daughter and I planned to visit her but she is not having a normal shed which isnt surprising...we just wanted to see her when she wasnt stressed from shedding and decide what to do next . We will know if there is any improvement but to see he rin shed is not a good idea as it could alter what we see in her condition . hopefully we will be able to do this this wk .
Toni

Why are they focusing solely on the brain tissues, and specifically needing them? Just curious![/QUOTE]

 

[myminskins]

Toni,
Dr. Southerland is a very competent Vet.
It is my hope that you and Debbie come to some reasonable conclusion.


Randal Berry

Thank you . I trust him . I know he has been very patient and caring and is trying to do the right thing . He stayed 2 hrs after hrs helping my daughter and me come to terms with the condition of the animal
Toni

 

[myminskins]

why are the vets you are working with, yours, and Dr. Jacobsen not trying live liver biopsy first? The last IBD thread, i believe it was brought to everyones attention that tests on live liver could be done, and could be conclusive?

I will have to go back and read those threads..

Why are they focusing solely on the brain tissues, and specifically needing them? Just curious!

If you think about it...the inclusion bodies destroy an organ when they invade...if the animal was regurging , unwilling to eat or defecate...you would think liver probably but her symptoms are neuro .
Good queston .
Toni

 

[timebider]

We have a lot to loose . I know the snake is damaged ....I hope it is simply due to the obvious....but we just couldnt risk bringing her back home because of the chance of IBD . Not really so weird and complicated .
Toni

Toni, this directly relates to my original question (which, though you interpreted it as an accusation, really was a question): why not find the snake another home, either temporarily or permanently, with someone who will care for it and give it the best chance of recovery it can have? Cathy made a very generous offer; if I could afford to be so generous, I'd repeat it myself. In any case, it looks as though neither you nor Debbie can safely accept the snake back from the vet. Where's the harm in taking Cathy up on her incredibly kind offer? Not only would you likely get the money for the vet sooner that way, but in the event the snake ultimately couldn't be saved, you'd have the peace of mind of knowing that everything possible was done.

I really do wish everyone involved the best of luck in this sticky situation. And now I will follow Harald's lead and bow out of this discussion.

 

[myminskins]

Toni, this directly relates to my original question (which, though you interpreted it as an accusation, really was a question): why not find the snake another home, either temporarily or permanently, with someone who will care for it and give it the best chance of recovery it can have? Cathy made a very generous offer; if I could afford to be so generous, I'd repeat it myself. In any case, it looks as though neither you nor Debbie can safely accept the snake back from the vet. Where's the harm in taking Cathy up on her incredibly kind offer? Not only would you likely get the money for the vet sooner that way, but in the event the snake ultimately couldn't be saved, you'd have the peace of mind of knowing that everything possible was done.

I really do wish everyone involved the best of luck in this sticky situation. And now I will follow Harald's lead and bow out of this discussion.

its about the snake right now . after my daughter and i visit her we will make a decision ...its not about the money. i dont think it would be right to accept money for this animal towards the vet bill .
if we place her in a pet home for possible rehab it will not involve money. period .

several people have offered her a home . i will take the kind offers into consideration . i am sorry if i was defensive towards your offer . i dont think the snake is in a bad place where she is and not sure what decision we will come to once we visit her .
i have everyones contact info and again thank you for the kind offers.

i just need to let this boi thing take care of itself and get back to my kids and move towards our next visit with the baby snake.

debbie has been given a time limit before i proceed with any further action .i have heard absolutely nothing from her .

i have to get off of here .
toni

 

[Junkyard]

If you think about it...the inclusion bodies destroy an organ when they invade...if the animal was regurging , unwilling to eat or defecate...you would think liver probably but her symptoms are neuro .
Good queston .
Toni

Toni, seriously think about a liver biopsy before putting the animal down to test for IBD in the brain. Just because there are no liver symptoms, that does not mean there are no inclusion bodies in the liver. The liver is one of the largest organs in a snake next to the intestine, in animals as in humans many diseases hit the liver first, which then travels throughout the rest of the body. That is why it makes sense to test the liver first.

Regurging and unwilling to eat does not mean it is a liver failure, that can simply be the characteristics of a ball python. There is an 85% chance of finding IBD in the liver and a 95% chance of finding IBD in the brain.

Debbie, your reputation in the past has been all positive, but all it takes is one bad situation to ruin it. I can understand why Toni does not want another animal from you. You sold an animal that technically arrived alive, but not what the Toni should have received. Hiding behind your TOS is a scumbag way of doing business. Giving credit or a replacement of equal value is what a store does, not a hobbyist. If you cannot pay for a refund, then make payments, come on, get your head out of the sand and fix this. Call the vet if you have too. You are probably not going to get the snake back, heck, have the vet ship it to you if it is put down and tested.

Protect your reputation, if this thread ends with you refunding and paying the vet bills, your reputation will be better than when this thread started. Then make sure a thread like this never happens again.

 

[littleindiangirl]

in some cases it shows up in blood that is the first step so i do think you need to check your facts

Where in the world is it "fact" that reptile vets must first check with a blood smear?? You seem to be assuming quite a bit....

I had been reading this entire thread waiting to read that a liver biopsy or other tissue biopsy was done, since I too have read about those methods, along with Alicia apparently.

 

[littleindiangirl]

And Toni, before you go jumping on me, I'm not telling you to get a biopsy at all. You don't seem to have ever had the money for these snakes, much less spending any more, however I think it was too hasty to cry "IBD" before any substantial testing was done with tissue biopsies.

I think it was in poor judgement to state IBD as a factor so publicly based on the fact that this vet is only following recommendations from another vet that hasn't seen this animal in person, and describing probably over email or phone, symptoms that can be attributed to a number of conditions.

This is a persons reputation we are considering here, and going straight to one of the worst diseases, on what I would consider at this point as speculation, came off as very underhanded.

 

[dprince]

OK, this is going to be my last post for now. I’m stepping off the merry go round, the cat and mouse game is over. I’ve not read any posts since I posted last, and I won’t read any more of them. Please don’t take that as a sign that I don’t care, but for my own mental health, I’ve got to step back. In reality, no matter what I say or do at this point, people have already made up their minds about this situation, whatever way that is, and no amount of back and forth is going to change that.

Though this ordeal started on February 19, I didn’t receive the vet report until 6 weeks after the snake was received by Toni. So though to some it may seem I’ve just sat on my laurels and done nothing, that’s just not the case. I have tried to be reasonable and respectful about this from the beginning, prior to this even becoming a BOI issue. I’ve asked for Toni to be respectful, which she has not been. I have NEVER EVER stated that I wouldn’t stand behind this snake, that I wouldn’t make it right, etc., as is shown by my numerous emails stating that I would replace the snake if I had the vet’s report – which was one of the options Toni wanted in the beginning. She no longer wants this, and I have now offered to sell one of my current collection and give her the money from that sale. She accepted that offer. It was suggested to me that I call Toni to work out the details of this transaction. I quite frankly don’t want anything not in writing, nor any private contact with her, so I am going to make my last offer here.

*I will sell one of my current snakes as the said “replacement snake”

*After the sale of the replacement (once that buyer has received and is happy with their snake), and sooner if I can, I will send Toni a MO for $1500.

*I will post a picture of said MO in this thread. I will send it out priority mail with delivery confirmation. I request that Toni post in this thread that she received said MO.

*As I am 100% confident that I didn’t send a sick snake, I will take the snake back. It will be quarantined (as any new acquisition would be) from the rest of my collection. Toni can choose to either send the snake now if she doesn’t want to be responsible for it until then, or she can send it when she receives the $1500. If the snake dies in her care, she is to send the body to me and I will have it necropsied with my own vet and post the report. It is her choice. If the snake dies in my care, I will have it necropsied and post the report. If she doesn’t, I will post pictures in a few months.

*If Toni accepts this offer, I would like ONE email or PM from her stating the address to mail the MO to, NOTHING ELSE. No snide comments, no accusations, nothing. When I receive this email, I will email her ONLY the address to have the snake shipped to. I request that the snake be sent back to me on the next Mon, Tues, or Wed after receiving said MO, and that I receive an email stating ONLY that the snake is being shipped and what day it is shipped, no other comments. That will be my last email contact with her.

*If I receive ANY nasty emails, phone calls, etc. from either Toni or any of Toni’s “friends”, then I consider this a done deal. I won’t be treated that way, sorry.

*Toni has 72 hours to respond to this offer. If she decides not to take it, then I will consider this over and done with.

For the multitudes of support and kindness I’ve received privately, I can’t thank you enough. It’s people like you that make the reptile community great.

 

[Wolfy-hound]

littleindiangirl... the reason that a blood smear is the first step is that it is MUCH less expensive to take a blood sample (and less invasive) to test than to do surgery to get a liver biopsy.
If the blood smear shows IBD, then the snake can been euthanized, without the added expense of a liver biopsy.
If the blood smear is negative, the owner can decide whether to do a liver biopsy, or wait.
Debbie, I hope it works out. I don't see why she would not take your offer.

 

[littleindiangirl]

littleindiangirl... the reason that a blood smear is the first step is that it is MUCH less expensive to take a blood sample (and less invasive) to test than to do surgery to get a liver biopsy.
If the blood smear shows IBD, then the snake can been euthanized, without the added expense of a liver biopsy.
If the blood smear is negative, the owner can decide whether to do a liver biopsy, or wait.

Thanks Wolfy. Maybe I'm missing something again. I've always been under the impression that doing a blood smear is a waste of time, considering it is a far long shot to diagnose IBD via a blood smear. But to get on with it....

 

[JordanAng420]

Debbie, you are being more than reasonable.
I know that you are a respectable breeder, not a "scumbag" breeder.
I hope that your health is not compromised from this situation, and I wish you the best.

 

[ToshaMc]

And Toni, before you go jumping on me, I'm not telling you to get a biopsy at all. You don't seem to have ever had the money for these snakes, much less spending any more, however I think it was too hasty to cry "IBD" before any substantial testing was done with tissue biopsies.

I think it was in poor judgement to state IBD as a factor so publicly based on the fact that this vet is only following recommendations from another vet that hasn't seen this animal in person, and describing probably over email or phone, symptoms that can be attributed to a number of conditions.

This is a persons reputation we are considering here, and going straight to one of the worst diseases, on what I would consider at this point as speculation, came off as very underhanded.

It's not like Toni came to the BOI claiming Debbie had IBD in her collection. The complaint wasn't even necessarily about IBD just the fact that the seller sold her a snake with obvious issues and did not seems to care (that it could be IBD) or care to stand behind it.

If it was anyone but your friend that shipped out a snake that was twisting flopping and spinning would you not be concerned about IBD? Would you not bring it up in correspondences? If said seller was unwilling to take the snake back and issue a refund as request would you not take it to the BOI?

I'm not seeing anywhere where Toni had any rush to judgment - she had legitimate concerns and it's been weeks - she has been open to the fact that it could be something other than IBD before it was brought to the BOI and has posted the vet reports as well for people to draw their conclusions where they may. She still has two animals that were shipped with this one so she has every right to still be concerned.

Judging by her how she handled the situation and unwillingness to accept responsibility I'd say IBD issue is the least of Debbie's worries.

 

[myminskins]

And Toni, before you go jumping on me, I'm not telling you to get a biopsy at all. You don't seem to have ever had the money for these snakes, much less spending any more, however I think it was too hasty to cry "IBD" before any substantial testing was done with tissue biopsies.

I think it was in poor judgement to state IBD as a factor so publicly based on the fact that this vet is only following recommendations from another vet that hasn't seen this animal in person, and describing probably over email or phone, symptoms that can be attributed to a number of conditions.

This is a persons reputation we are considering here, and going straight to one of the worst diseases, on what I would consider at this point as speculation, came off as very underhanded.

Your statements are both unfounded in fact and ridiculous .

 

[littleindiangirl]

It's not like Toni came to the BOI claiming Debbie had IBD in her collection. The complaint wasn't even necessarily about IBD just the fact that the seller sold her a snake with obvious issues and did not seems to care (that it could be IBD) or care to stand behind it.

Well Tosha, that wasn't the way I read it. The first post she had specifically stated that Debbie could possibly have IBD in her collection. How is that not coming right out and saying a seller has IBD in their collection?

And then to post a note from a vet that says the symptoms are along the same lines as IBD. That's all but diagnosing it AS IBD ...

That sounds like a very damaging post to make as a first for a BOI thread.

...It seems poor husbandry on your part to buy and resale animals without proper QT and then shipping a sick animal or shipping in a box the way you sent her which was a USED box.too small and improporly packed .Then not to even attempt to make things right from day one and not caring that your collection may have IBD is beyond poor husbandry .


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