Info on record / Debbie Prince

[spawn]

ALL,
Again, I'm not siding with either party. I think it could have been handled better IF Toni shipped the snake back as soon as she noticed a problem. DOESN'T mater if Debbie didn't want it back, she would have recieved the snake the next day or so, and the ball would have been in Debbie's court, and I'm pretty sure we would be talking about another subject.

Randal Berry

The idea that she should have shipped a snake back before getting consent and this deal could have gone "differently" is atrocious at best, Randal. What if she wasn't expecting it, and the snake showed up and died at the door? What then, hunh? Oh no - Debbie's problem right?

Debbie needs to take care of the 327 in vet bills she requested or should I say insisted upon and advised . In her last post she even says that she refused to take care of the situation til it was done . If you refer back to the emails the day after the animal went to the vet....she advises the blood smears .

Exactly why does Debbie need to reimburse you for the vet bill? What exactly did the vet do other than tell you the snake was exhibiting symptoms of IBD. You are unable to care for the snake that clearly does not have IBD in your own care?

Take my advice: send the snake back; accept the $1500 refund. You've drawn a good breeder's name through the mud this long and decided not to accept the refund - instead, Toni, you continue to respond to other people on this thread rather than doing anything to resolve the problem. You're a scumbag customer using your position as the person who must be SATISFIED if you go as far as expecting Debbie to pay the vet bill as well as refund the money if you do not send the snake back. Send the damn animal back.

 

[MikeCurtin]

Debbie made no offer to pay the vet . She insited on the vet...advised the blood smears ..refused the animal since the beginning . She vacated the thread . I didnt enter the agreement for this greif or a damaged animal or the vet bill she insisted upon .
Randal berry posted that it was possible for a bp to carry the ibd virus for months before it died .

If you re-read my post, I lay blame upon Debbie exactly where it is due. Perhaps you did not enter this agreement for this grief, etc., but when dealing with live animals, it is a risk. If you are unable to recognize this, please feel free to leave the hobby at any time or you are sure to have more heartbreak ahead of you.

It puzzles me that you cling to the statement made by Randall about it being possible for a BP to carry the IBD virus for months before it dies, yet you absolutely refuse to listen to any other statements that suggest any cause other than IBD. This is why your actions appear vindictive. It seems that you are trying to make Debbie pay all the bills you choose to rack up because this deal went sour. Did she do the right thing? Not exactly...has she shown an attempt to meet you halfway? I think so. Have you been remotely gracious in either accepting or declining her offer(s)? Not even close!

Personally I wouldnt breed an animal that was this damaged...seems cruel to me but that is beside the point...just replying to the statement that you regretted euthanizing and testing becasue it was negative and you could have used the animal for breeding. if I am mistaken about your statement please feel free to correct me .

You are mistaken. I regret euthanizing this animal because the seller and one additional party told me of very similar symptoms caused by over-heating. They explained that they have seen animals take months to recover, but when kept back at optimal temps, they made a full recovery nonetheless. The seller then offered to take this snake back and keep her at his facility while she recovered because he was so confident it was not IBD(sound familiar?). I would have gladly accepted the offer had this not been the day after the snake was euthanized. The negative result confirmed my guilt.

Perhaps she would have been put into a breeding project, perhaps not...she was my only IJ at the time, so it is doubtful. I do, however, appreciate your insinuation that my only regret was a result of my perceived monetary loss from a breeding standpoint....classy.

 

[garweft]

You must spread some karma around before giving it to captnemo again

Apparently I have agreed with your posts before.

Anyway, I was going to stay out of this but thought it would be a nice time to bring up a little advise to anyone reading.......ready.....

If you cannot afford to lose a $1000+ animal you should not be shipping a $1000+ animal.

How hard is that? If I'm selling anything that costs more than I want to ship I will sell them local only. Even if I have to sell it 10-20% below market costs. Otherwise you take the chance of putting yourself in this position.

Also, A replacement animal is pretty standard for animals damaged during shipping, and I feel that is appropriate. However, waiting six months is not. If you do not have another male caramel laying around, and the buyer isn't interested in whatever else comparable animal you have available, you need to issue a refund. It's you call on if you want the snake back or not. Personally I'd get it back since you know you didn't send a sick one.

 

[Masonexotics]

I have read the thread, thanks for patronizing me, that always makes points.

The only thing I've seen from a vet says that it was overcooked. Personally, a month after receiving it, you could have cooked it.

IMO, This is a bad buyer thread as far as I see.

If you have read it you've clearly not understood.

the buyer raised concerns on day 1. She was fobbed off by the seller saying it was "shipping stress". As the buyer continued to try and report a problem tyhe buyer ignored her.


Bad buyer thread? Get real.


the only reason this thread exists is the seller didn't do the right thing in the first instance, she tried to fob off the buyer with some flimsy and false story about shipping stress doing this to ball pyhtons. she then (despite the seller reporting some issue right out of the box) tried to blame husbandry. She fed her a real bunch of lines to try and get out of this. Then there's "completely coincidental" T's & C's change.

and as for Randals strange ideas...


Send a $1-2000 dollar snake back to someone who has said they will refuse to accept it? that is going to cause nothing but further problems.

She refused the snake back at that time. you'd have be stupid to ship to anyone in those circumstances.

 

[Wolfy-hound]

The snake was said to have issues from day one, but the seller asked for a vet report which was NOT GIVEN until right when she started this thread.
The letter says the blood smears were negetive for IBD, and that it could have been caused by something else.
AGAIN.....
Will you accept the refund AND SEND THE SNAKE BACK? I asked it a few times, over the last two days, and you STILL haven't answered, despite posting multiple responses to all sorts of things.
Twisting what anyone says to get them in trouble is also not going to help your case. He never said he was going to give a snake chemicals to induce twisting, he said you could use chemicals to get the same result you photographed.
AGAIN.. why are you not taking the offered refund, and returning the snake? Are you enjoying being the victim too much to stop? The seller might be responsible for the initial vet bill of the blood smears... but NOT anything further, especially not the boarding, and further care, becuase the vet reported a negetive test for IBD. Your words are that the snake has been eating. Overheating damage is not contagious. You have the other two supposedly "exposed" snakes in quarentine somewhere, so why isn't this snake there too, instead of still at the vet? Why not SEND THE SNAKE BACK, and get your refund>?
SO there's the question again.

 

[Masonexotics]

Has debbie said she'd take the snake back? I must have missed that.

you make it sound awfully simple, but please don't forget it was the seller who first refused to give a refund, and also refused to accept the snake back because of their "poor husbandry" of the ball python that was "stressed during shipping".

Also, if you'd read the thread you'd see the buyer DID send that vet letter to the seller, on the 1st of april according to the email string on page one.

If the buyer wants the snake back it should be sent back for the refund, as yet i've not actually seen the seller confirm she's ok with this. In fact she's already admitted she's spent the cash and is broke.

 

[Tiger Lilly]

SOMEBODY STOP ME!

Since Toni still hasn't said it....
Will you be shipping the snake back to Debbie? She said she would take the snake back, in exchange for the refund.
I would like ANY documented case of a ball python surviving with IBD for "months" without symptoms. I was told by several people including one of the premeir vets who identified IBD that it does not happen. Once contracted, ball pythons begin showing symptoms and dying in a short time frame(1 month give or take a couple weeks). Boas do not, and can carry IBD. I'd appreciate if there is other information.

I keep looking for her answer to this question and don't understand why she won't answer it. I understand the OP wants a refund to include the vet bills, but it sounds like the OP is holding the snake 'hostage' until she gets confirmation on said refund. My bad--she's having the vet hold it.

By the way, toni, I don't care how desperate I get, I'll never sell you a heating stone.

Huh? WTH?

What question ? Did I answer because I am getting off here again and will be out of town tomorrow ....maybe longer depending on my Dr appt .Be on here just a few min longer .

Seems like you are skirting the question. You have answered everyone else's questions, but not Theresa's. I would expect you to keep up with your own thread...

I am not sure what I didnt answer . She needs to send a refund for 1500 plus vet costs of 327 .
Will get the invoice in a few days....maybe he can email me a copy tomorrow since his scanner works and mine doesnt .

Rather than keep asking 'what question?' go back and re-read your thread. You keep telling others to do that...

No, actually, I'm saying that you could have. I said I could probably replicate your pictures without chemicals.
It would be an interesting experiment. I'll post results by the weekend. During that time, why don't you post the results of the blood tests.

I am looking forward to your experiment--as long as you aren't using chemicals!

The snake was said to have issues from day one, but the seller asked for a vet report which was NOT GIVEN until right when she started this thread. The letter says the blood smears were negetive for IBD, and that it could have been caused by something else.
AGAIN.....
Will you accept the refund AND SEND THE SNAKE BACK? I asked it a few times, over the last two days, and you STILL haven't answered, despite posting multiple responses to all sorts of things.
Again, why are you not taking the offered refund, and returning the snake? Are you enjoying being the victim too much to stop? The seller might be responsible for the initial vet bill of the blood smears... but NOT anything further, especially not the boarding, and further care, becuase the vet reported a negetive test for IBD. Your words are that the snake has been eating. Overheating damage is not contagious. You have the other two supposedly "exposed" snakes in quarentine somewhere, so why isn't this snake there too, instead of still at the vet? Why not SEND THE SNAKE BACK, and get your refund>?
SO there's the question again.

Ok, that's THREE times in ONE post that Theresa has asked that question, in addition to at least 2-3 other times previously. Inquiring minds want to know!

Now I have questions of my own:
Why did it take you so long to find a vet? If I had paid as much for a snake as you have--
1. I'd already HAVE a vet lined up;
2. I'd have found a way to get the snake there ASAP!
3. I'd have the seller's info, including phone AND home address at my fingertips at least until the snakes arrived and made it through the seller's TOS--and even through my quarantine period! I throw NOTHING away until I make sure it's a GOOD DEAL.
Now, while I realize the seller stated she would not/could not answer phone calls/emails, a timely REGISTERED LETTER along with photos, etc would probably have helped the OPs case a little more.

And just so no one thinks I'm picking on the OP, here's my thoughts on the seller:
1. Using the fact that you had a baby is not a valid excuse. Sorry, I know this may not sit well with some of you, but if you can not run a business and deal with everyday life--suspend your business until you can. Yes, your child comes first, and I pray that all is well with your family. But business is business & family comes first.
2. While I also realize that these are trying times and you may have needed the money, was all this aggravation worth it? If you can't deal with having a baby AND handling your business obligations, something's got to give. I am not just talking out of my @$$, here. I ran a home-based critter business while I was pregnant (high risk) and had 2 other children to care for . Business was suspended at the appropriate time. Customers were notified; no big deal. People tend to be more understanding when they are kept in the loop.

My understanding is that the OP made payments on these snakes. I understand that times are tight & the money has already been spent. We're ALL broke in this economy. My suggestion is this:
If we can ever get the OP to answer the $64,000 Question about shipping the snake back to you, why can't YOU make the same payments to HER that she made to buy the snake in question? You have, at last report, said that you would take the snake back, correct? If that is agreeable to both parties, the only thing left to mediate is whether who pays the vet bill. For the record, I have to agree with whoever said the seller should pay for it up to the point that the snakes were found to be negative for IBD. The boarding? Forget it. Once the vet said it was not IBD, there was no risk of spreading anything and the OP should've taken the snake home and sent it back when the seller agreed to accept it.

Sorry for being so long-winded, but I have been following this one since it started. I tried to stay out of it, but the urge to throw in my 2 cents was too strong...

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG??? ​

 

[Miss Tuniwha]

Has debbie said she'd take the snake back? I must have missed that.

Yes she has. ORIGINALLY she said now, but a few pages back she made Toni a good deal.



That deal INCLUDED sending the snake back to Debbie.

 

[Masonexotics]

Cheers, I had missed that then, mind you with all the off topic pissing contests and point scoring crap it's easy to miss bits!

 

[ToshaMc]

You all seem to forget that there are two other snakes that were shipped in the box with this one. Although it may not be IBD there are other things that it could be as well. It's easy to pass judgment when the potential illness is not in your collection. Toni just wants to insure that the other two animals and her entire collection is safe. From what I gather her piece of mind may be worth more to her than the refund. I've suggested she get in touch with Dr. Jacobsen and see what he recommends - instead of listening to a bunch of random people on an internet forum - if he recommends doing the necropsy and Debbie won't do it then she'll likely forfeit the refund. I could be wrong but this is the gist of what I've gotten - I believe she may be waiting until she has the opportunity to see the animal firsthand and talk with the doctors. Again I could be wrong.

 

[Casey Hulse]

I believe Toni is not going to return the snake because she think it may be needed as evidence in possible litigation against Debbie.
If I were being threatened with a lawsuit based on the possibility of Toni having IBD in her collection at some point in the future, I would just say "go for it"

We have already agreed earlier today... prior to reading your post that we were going to proceed with the necropsy . As I told you per email within the 1st wk of recieving this animal ...any loss we suffer due to exposure by this animal will be included in any further potential litigation .
I can update you asap on any other amendment but certainly the 1500 is acceptable for the cost of the snake and would show you are trying... once it is received . I cannot at this time say for certain we are safe and agree to this as a final settlement . Will let everyone know once we receive the final results of the biopsy(s).
I appreciate you offering to send the refund and hope this is over soon .
Thanks ,
Toni

Because the snake in my opinion has no quality of life and the choice to euthanize has been made prior .
Any damages claimed by us due to an animal she shipped would be unprovable with the animal gone and we cannot depend on Debbie to have any testing done or report honestly when she would be held accountable .

 

[MikeCurtin]

A few more things to add:

I could see Debbie being either partly or wholly responsible for the initial vet visit because it seems a refund may have been contingent upon this visit. Boarding, euthanasia, and IBD testing? Perhaps Debbie could be expected to pay this if tests came back positive. In the case of negative results, I feel Debbie would not be responsible for refunding a thing.

Also, speaking of boarding, Toni's worried about IBD. She's so worried about IBD that she's willing to have the symptomatic snake boarded indefinitely (at Debbie's expense) even though there is information to suggest IBD is not present.

Here's the question: Where are the other 2 snakes that were exposed to the symptomatic one in close quarters for 16 hours??? If this was the concern she claims, I'd have a hard time believing she would expose her collection to those snakes either.

 

[ToshaMc]

A few more things to add:

I could see Debbie being either partly or wholly responsible for the initial vet visit because it seems a refund may have been contingent upon this visit. Boarding, euthanasia, and IBD testing? Perhaps Debbie could be expected to pay this if tests came back positive. In the case of negative results, I feel Debbie would not be responsible for refunding a thing.

Also, speaking of boarding, Toni's worried about IBD. She's so worried about IBD that she's willing to have the symptomatic snake boarded indefinitely (at Debbie's expense) even though there is information to suggest IBD is not present.

Here's the question: Where are the other 2 snakes that were exposed to the symptomatic one in close quarters for 16 hours??? If this was the concern she claims, I'd have a hard time believing she would expose her collection to those snakes either.

When I suggested Debbie be responsible for the boarding costs (which I don't even know if there are boarding costs) it was because

1. Debbie dragged her feet on this to begin with - this snake should have been returned to Debbie immediately for a refund and she should have taken that snake to the vet and done her own investigating into the cause and have reported back to her customer the reason for the damaged snake - that is her responsibility as the seller - one that she failed miserably at. If Debbie had said throw the snake in the freezer and had issued the refund on day one then any boarding would be Toni's dime but I do believe that if Toni wanted to have it tested after having it euthanized that would be something that the seller should be at minimum partially responsible for because that is part of her responsibility as the seller.

2. Since Debbie now wants the snake returned but has no deadline in which to return funds she could potentially rack up exorbitant boarding fees in the process of gathering the money - so boarding fees until she takes possession of the animal should be hers as well - if she doesn't want the snake back then any further boarding would be on Toni's dime. Any further testing should at minimum be the partial responsibility of the seller as well.

Since the initial vet visit and blood tests were at Debbies request she should also be responsible for those. Irregardless of whether or not these tests come back positive or negative the snake was received damaged and it is the sellers responsibility to make good with the buyer and do right by the animal which clearly she has not.

 

[Uroboros]

Huh? WTH?
...
I am looking forward to your experiment--as long as you aren't using chemicals!

I mean that I would not sell the OP inanimate objects if it meant paying my rent.
...
One of my bp's last night is willing to look upside down for quite a long time. Almost like a bendy buddy. A couple of others weren't as cooperative, but with good timing, I think I can replicate each one of those photos.

Debbie had asked for a vet report on Feb 22, but it took 36 days to get one. Toni should have been more timely on this. Debbie should have been all over the "stick it in a box and ship it back". If I were the seller, I'd have foregone the vet report and such. A refund for the snake at that time was probably warranted because she couldn't replace it with an equal or better snake at that time. And the faster it gets back, the less likely it is that the buyer cooked it.

I think it smells that it's taken two months for this to appear here. I also think it smells that a python with IBD isn't dead yet. And that it eats and poops. (It's not IBD, it's probably been cooked)

I'll back off my stance that someone is trying to rip Debbie off, but I'm not convinced that someone's not.

If the concern about IBD is so great (as it should be), then why are the other two snakes still at your house? Being in a box for 16 hours with an IBD snake is kind of like huddling in a phone booth with someone that has smallpox. For 16 hours.

 

[ToshaMc]

I mean that I would not sell the OP inanimate objects if it meant paying my rent.
...
One of my bp's last night is willing to look upside down for quite a long time. Almost like a bendy buddy. A couple of others weren't as cooperative, but with good timing, I think I can replicate each one of those photos.

Debbie had asked for a vet report on Feb 22, but it took 36 days to get one. Toni should have been more timely on this. Debbie should have been all over the "stick it in a box and ship it back". If I were the seller, I'd have foregone the vet report and such. A refund for the snake at that time was probably warranted because she couldn't replace it with an equal or better snake at that time. And the faster it gets back, the less likely it is that the buyer cooked it.

I think it smells that it's taken two months for this to appear here. I also think it smells that a python with IBD isn't dead yet. And that it eats and poops. (It's not IBD, it's probably been cooked)

I'll back off my stance that someone is trying to rip Debbie off, but I'm not convinced that someone's not.

If the concern about IBD is so great (as it should be), then why are the other two snakes still at your house? Being in a box for 16 hours with an IBD snake is kind of like huddling in a phone booth with someone that has smallpox. For 16 hours.

Again you seem to be miss interpreting the timeline and actions by both parties - in a nutshell - the reason this took so long was because of Debbie's inactions, ignorance, indecision and plain avoidance of the situation. She has handled it from day one as she has in this thread -- she makes a useless half-assed statement and then she disappears.

Seriously if you want to pick apart something then ask yourself why right after Toni complained about the snake did Debbie take her 7 day guarantee off of her website TOS.

 

[Uroboros]

Again you seem to be miss interpreting the timeline and actions by both parties - in a nutshell - the reason this took so long was because of Debbie's inactions, ignorance, indecision and plain avoidance of the situation. She has handled it from day one as she has in this thread -- she makes a useless half-assed statement and then she disappears.

Seriously if you want to pick apart something then ask yourself why right after Toni complained about the snake did Debbie take her 7 day guarantee off of her website TOS.

I don't get what you're saying.

On Feb 22, Debbie asked for a vet report. IMO, this is lame, but she asked for it.

On April 1, she got one. That's over a month. What part of the time frame am I missing?

 

[BryonsBoas]

I don't get the boarding at the Vet's office if she is willing to keep 2 exposed animals in her Q-rack now. If she is on her game, having the damaged animal in her q-rack is no different than having the 2 in it now that has already been exposed. IF, I stress IF, the animal does have IBD ( highly doubtful ) then the likely presence of it is already in her Q-rack.

Typically when an animal is expressing the visual symptoms of IBD, the animal will either regurge if it does eat or not eat at all. If the animal has been eating, its a fair sign the curling, balling up or whatever is not visual symptoms of IBD.

Simple testing could have found if any bacterial infections were causing the problems. It looks a lot like the idea of IBD is there and possibility of anything else being wrong is overlooked, whether purposely or not, I can't say but enough folks have chimed in with a good amount of research or experience with it to give somebody a clue.

I'm comfortable enough to say that its an overheating problem, comfortable enough that I would run the animal for a 90 day Q-time and post pics of me rubbing it all over my prized boa without a 2nd thought.

I've read the thread and started out siding more towards the OP but as this goes on and on and on and on, the seller has given an offer to make it right. The OP has seemed to have developed a bit of a vindictive streak and running up a tab for the sake of sticking it the seller.

The seller could have handled this way better but the OP could be handling this a bit better as well. Having the animal boarded while the other 2 snakes ( exposed by being shipped in the same box and being in her home ) at this point is useless to anyone other than vet who will happily send out a bill.

I don't see anyone forgetting the other 2 snakes. I seem to remember those two other snakes being asked about without an answer.

Anyone wanna bet this post will be twisted into an attack?

 

[Uroboros]

Seriously if you want to pick apart something then ask yourself why right after Toni complained about the snake did Debbie take her 7 day guarantee off of her website TOS.

And personally, I don't care about TOS', if I buy an animal and it shows up like the carmel did, I'd be insisting on a refund and a return, and if that wasn't met, it would wind up here. If the seller demanded a vet report, I could get one the next day (because as a responsible herper, I have a good exotics vet).

I think Toni is due a refund, and Debbie is due the snake. The vet bills, outside of the one requested by Debbie - she should pay for that, are Toni's.

 

[BryonsBoas]

I believe Toni is not going to return the snake because she think it may be needed as evidence in possible litigation against Debbie.
If I were being threatened with a lawsuit based on the possibility of Toni having IBD in her collection at some point in the future, I would just say "go for it"

Agreed. If she is going to do it, do it. Threats carry an effective range of 0 meters with me. Racking up months worth of boarding bills for "possible" litigation is only going to cause a financial hardship for one of the parties when its all said and done.

If she is so damn worried about it, either fork out for the live liver biopsies ( samples can be taken from other organs as well ), put the snake down for multiple organ testing or send it back.

The initial visit & blood smears fall squarely on Debbie to be added to the refund. If the animal comes back negative after either the live liver biopsy or necropsy, thats on the buyer. If this what she wants done for a possible lawsuit, she is just ass out if the testing comes back clean.

 

[MikeCurtin]

Anyone wanna bet this post will be twisted into an attack?

I wouldn't doubt it.

The initial visit & blood smears fall squarely on Debbie to be added to the refund. If the animal comes back negative after either the live liver biopsy or necropsy, thats on the buyer. If this what she wants done for a possible lawsuit, she is just ass out if the testing comes back clean.

That seems reasonable...even more so had Toni rationally responded upon receipt of the offer...the vindictive nature of recent communications from Toni, however, leads me to believe that if she was given an inch......well, you know.