Bad Guy Jon Levey owner of Jon's Jungle

[Royal Morphz]

Let me first say I bought a healthy and beautiful Ivory Female BP from Jon Levey, owner of Jon's Jungles.

This BOI post isn't for the animal; It is for the Customer service, Bad communication, and shipping( or lack of).

First off always establish a email paper trail with any dealings of a business nature because most of this deal was carried out over the phone which can be hard to convey if a problem such as this arises.

On Saturday, April the 4th, I contacted Jon about a female Ivory that he had listed on his then incomplete website. He asked me the price on his site. I pulled up the site and gave him the price which was $1150. He said He would contact me Sunday or Monday with the price shipped.

Come Monday I hadn't heard from him and not wanting to have my wife say that "we better not spend the money", I called Jon and asked him if he had made a decision on the Ivory. He said he would cut me a deal and do it for $1100 shipped.. I said thanks and asked what his Paypal was, he then asked me if I banked with BofA. I said yes, he said it would get to him quicker if I just transfer the money to his account. Because I wanted to receive the Ivory as quickly as possible, I agreed to do the transfer.

So on Monday, April the 6th, I transferred over 1000 and 100( BofA only allows transfers of 1000 at a time). He then called me at 1108 a.m. on Tuesday April the 7th to let me know that my deposit was transferred into his account. I then asked him if he was going to ship out on Tuesday the April 7th for a Wednesday April 8th delivery. He said he would try, and then told me that he was looking at his site and that the price on his site said 1200! I immediately went to his site and saw that not only did it say 1200, but his site was completed at this time.

I told him what I saw and that it didn't say 1200, but I said I would pay the 50 difference. Jon said no don't send any money because it may have been his mistake and that it wouldn't dictate whether he was going to ship on Tuesday April the 7th or not. He said he would call me a bit later.

I called Jon at 1029 a.m. on Wednesday April the 8th and left a msg asking if he was going to ship on Wednesday for Thursday delivery. He said he was pretty busy and would be heading out of town and wouldn't be back until late on Friday April the 10th and he didn't want trust an employee to ship it out so he would just ship on Monday April the 13th for a Tuesday April 14th delivery.

I told him that this was fine but I wanted the snake shipped no later than Monday. I called Jon on Monday at 1018a.m. to make sure he was shipping out that day, no answer so I left a msg asking if he was going to ship.

At 1042 a.m. I received a text msg from Jon stating "Be home tonight, ship Tuesday for Wednesday. Bad cell reception call you later". Still trying to be polite I sent one back saying " Thanks Jon can you shoot me over a photo of her on a scale, just for my records. Also is she a in house animal or did you have to wait for her to arrive from a supplier. Just trying to justify the delay with my wife, keep me post Jon".

At 1112 a.m. I received a text from Jon saying "Everything on my site/list is @ our facility! If you are going 2 act like retail customer I am going 2 have 2 start charging you retail!!".

Now I should state that it is a known fact that Jon just started breeding BP's this season so it's a given that any animals he has for sale until this seasons eggs hatch are from other suppliers and it was brought to my attention that maybe the hold up was because he didn't have the animal he had sold me and had to wait for it to arrive. Now I don't know that to be the fact, there will be some more info later that will make it seem so again.

At 1224 p.m. I sent him back a text asking if it would it be easier for me to drive from Las Vegas to San Clemente, CA to pick her up stating I could use the time out of town. I didn't receive a msg or a call so me and my wife started the drive thinking that he had said he would be back "tonight" in a earlier text.

Somehow he got the word I was on my way and texted me at 153 p.m. saying "I am out of town until tonight and don't plan on doing any business until tomorrow eve ( Tuesday April the 14th), i'll call you after lunch!".

At 212 p.m. Jon called and explained he had taken his wife out of town on a mini vacation and that he had a big day on Tuesday April 14th as it was the day he was meeting with his tax preparer and would be spending the whole day on Tuesday with him. He said he would gladly hang out on Wednesday April the 15th if I wanted to still come down, but he could definitely send the snake out on Tuesday the 14th for a Wednesday the 15th delivery. So I agreed to that and let him get back to his vacation.

I didn't hear from him until 737 p.m. Tuesday the 14th by text saying "Hi Tim, just heading 2 facility, will grab your Ivory girl and 100% will ship her Wednesday tomorrow for a Thursday a.m. delivery!! thanks Jon." At this time me and my wife decide to leave for San Clemente and I text him saying we are on our way.

At 1100 p.m. on Tuesday the 14th Jon send a text saying "Ok let me know, I have plans from 10a.m.-2 p.m.ish tomorrow, but I'm open other than that". I sent one saying that we were just getting to Baker (in CA) and what time can we meet before your appointment so he wouldn't be late.

On April 15th at 623 a.m. Jon sent a text saying " lets meet at 11ish if thats ok with you". I said that was fine and we later decided to meet at a restaurant on the San Clemente Pier to have lunch and make the pickup. The animal was in a shipping box and it had been used before because it looked like there was tape that had been ripped off( this led me to have more thoughts that he had just received the Ivory in a shipment, but I have no proof of that so it's not important).

I'll tell you after all this and everything, I ended up paying for our lunch with Jon because I thought that 15 minutes was too long for the check to just sit there on the table ignored, but that is just one more thing I can write off this year.

So after all was said and done a 1100.00 dollar Ivory ended up cost me 1500.00 dollars. Take it how you will, but this isn't the way to do business. With the economy the way it is today you would think a seller would want to make every customer happy with the hope they will refer someone to them.

 

[KelliH]

Just because the animal was transported in a used shipping box does not mean he bought it from a supplier. I transport animals in used shipping boxes all the time when doing local sales.

 

[DavidBeard]

Ok, sounds like may have been a tad jerk-like.....but you got the snake, you're satisfied with it......I don't see the justification in a "bad guy" thread.

You CHOSE to go pick the animal up yourself.....thats on you, not Jon. Implying things such as the animal's origins without proof is potentially harmful conjecture and is better left unsaid.

 

[Royal Morphz]

I guess thats why I put I don't know if it was fact but it was alot of the things that he did that made me feel like he had to have the snake shipped to him so he could sell it to me. I know I have reused fedex boxes as well.

 

[Royal Morphz]

Thanks for your input David but as this is my account of a deal with Jon I find it hard to understand why you say I can't call it as I see it. I said the animal was beautiful and healthy then state this thread was started on the communication and lack of shipping of Jon. Now in my book when you take money from someone especially in this industry you ship the said animal out asap. A week with poor communication is way to long to be without animal or money.

 

[Bryan T]

Sorry to hear about your situation.... I am 100% sure Jon buys from other breeders and sells them to make a quick dollar.... he is what you call a flipper, he doesn't produce his own animals. I've heard from many other reputable breeders that he buys from NERD and other breeders then sells to make fast cash. I'm not saying he's a BAD GUY but he does not produce the animals he sells.

Ivories are really nice and $1,100 sounds like a good deal, but John needs to have better customer service.... like you said with the economy the way it is he should jump throughhoops to satisfy his customers, you bought a $1,100 Ivory not a $200 spider.... customer service should come first and foremost.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

These herp surfers such as Jon

Have no common business sense and treat any sale as its final one without taking into consideration that repeat business is the foundation of any good business dealings... I am not surprised because probably half of the herp community should take a course in learning how to keep a customer, especially a good paying one like Royal Morph.... Ridiculous, and I am glad that it came here to the BOI... This is not isolated, these guys on the west coast, and there are a few of them who are to big for there britches and dont care about inconveniencing anyone regardless of the value of the sale... They should be in church blessing God for whatever business comes there way instead of having to aggravate a good customer....

 

[JasonG]

oh boy i gotta read this one

 

[Royal Morphz]

Now let me state that although this was a bad deal I only shopped with Jon because I had purchase/traded with him at shows. I thought well hell he was good then lets support him again. Well it bit me in the butt anyways. You can even look up many of his other threads and you will see me praising him, but as I said they were on a show level never had to have the animals shipped.

 

[jasballs]

I was told in 05' at Daytona to never buy from him.. Sad thing is I was told that by one of his Suppliers! Glad I listened

 

[Royal Morphz]

After reading this thread:
www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29056

I can see similarities in my situation and the O.P. of that threads situation see David there is another account of him not having the animals he had up for sale.

 

[ColinWeaver]

Little Tangent Here

Much of this discussion centers around the fact that John Levey didn't actually have the snake when he sold it to Tim. While the reptile business chooses to call these people "flippers" I'd rather think of them as "drop-shippers." They have no product, only a web site with stock photos (or email forwarded photos) that make them look like legit producers. I cannot participate in the condemnation of John Levey as one of these people because I don't know him but I do know others who use this as their business model.

A drop-shipper (flipper) can't say to Tim, "I don't have that in stock, I have to order it", because it immediately reveals to Tim that he is paying a middle-man, not the actual animal producer. Knowing that you are paying a middle-man puts a bad taste in your mouth because you know that could have obtained this animal from the true source at a price less than you are paying the flipper.

But therein lies the conundrum: the drop-shipper usually has a volume relationship with the supplier that allows them to obtain the animal at a deep discount; a price lower than the actual supplier would normally sell directly to the public for. This means that the supplier is a wholesaler. The wholesaler has a retail storefront (probably just a web page) that does limited business because the sticker prices are high. So he sells in large volume to drop-shippers who advertise his products as their own. The increased sales volume obtained by the wholesaler increases the drop-shippers buying power (e.g his buying margins get better). As a result the drop-shipper is able to offer the same animal for a lower price than the actual owner of the animal.

The circle completed itself when Tim shopped for and found the best price for an Ivory ($1,100 is a steal as far as I'm concerned). He would not have received the runaround from the actual producer of the animal but he would have had to pay an elevated price tag to obtain the animal. In the end I suspect that Tim's price was pretty close to equal what he would have paid had he gone direct to the source.

The problem is so multi-faceted. Tim initially went to John because he had the best price. This allows John to buy yet more quantity from the wholesaler, thereby further strengthening their relationship and bettering John's ability to buy at a discount. Because getting the best price at the moment of sale is often more important than developing relationships Tim never buys directly from the producer so he never builds the rapport/relationship necessary to earn price breaks similar to those of the drop-shipper. It's a cycle that is decreasing the value of the reptile market because the drop-shipper prices are based on their margins, not on an animal's worth. They are all too happy to sell an animal at a "discount" off retail because they purchased the animal for way below that value.

I am guilty of what Tim did. I have been through the drop-shipper more than once. Getting the best price is a powerful motivator.

As a reptile breeder I need to buy from other reptile breeders, not from flippers/drop-shippers. I'm supporting my own kind if I do. Yes, I may pay a little more for the first few animals but I will eventually develop a rapport and a relationship with the breeder that gets me better prices. I wish I could readily identify professional flippers/drop-shippers. I think I'm fed up enough with the ball python business price declines to start paying higher prices to real breeders so I can get rid of the flippers.

Imagine if the real breeders organized against the full-time flippers (reptile dealers with no stock of their own) the way we have against HR 669. They'd be out in a month. Now that would be nice.

So Tim, I think what happened to you sucks. Fortunately the animal was worth the pain and heartache. But if you knowingly chose to buy from a flipper you should have anticipated at least part of what happened to you (sorry to not completely side with you on this one).

And yes, I know this is a bit off topic as to whether or not John is a bad guy but I would like to talk more about this if anyone is interested.

And yes, I also know that the "middle man" model is the basis of huge portions of our economy. But the ball python community is not so big that it requires middle-men. We can still buy direct.

Best Regards,

Colin Weaver

 

[jasballs]

Much of this discussion centers around the fact that John Levey didn't actually have the snake when he sold it to Tim. While the reptile business chooses to call these people "flippers" I'd rather think of them as "drop-shippers." They have no product, only a web site with stock photos (or email forwarded photos) that make them look like legit producers. I cannot participate in the condemnation of John Levey as one of these people because I don't know him but I do know others who use this as their business model.

A drop-shipper (flipper) can't say to Tim, "I don't have that in stock, I have to order it", because it immediately reveals to Tim that he is paying a middle-man, not the actual animal producer. Knowing that you are paying a middle-man puts a bad taste in your mouth because you know that could have obtained this animal from the true source at a price less than you are paying the flipper.



But therein lies the conundrum: the drop-shipper usually has a volume relationship with the supplier that allows them to obtain the animal at a deep discount; a price lower than the actual supplier would normally sell directly to the public for. This means that the supplier is a wholesaler. The wholesaler has a retail storefront (probably just a web page) that does limited business because the sticker prices are high. So he sells in large volume to drop-shippers who advertise his products as their own. The increased sales volume obtained by the wholesaler increases the drop-shippers buying power (e.g his buying margins get better). As a result the drop-shipper is able to offer the same animal for a lower price than the actual owner of the animal.

The circle completed itself when Tim shopped for and found the best price for an Ivory ($1,100 is a steal as far as I'm concerned). He would not have received the runaround from the actual producer of the animal but he would have had to pay an elevated price tag to obtain the animal. In the end I suspect that Tim's price was pretty close to equal what he would have paid had he gone direct to the source.

The problem is so multi-faceted. Tim initially went to John because he had the best price. This allows John to buy yet more quantity from the wholesaler, thereby further strengthening their relationship and bettering John's ability to buy at a discount. Because getting the best price at the moment of sale is often more important than developing relationships Tim never buys directly from the producer so he never builds the rapport/relationship necessary to earn price breaks similar to those of the drop-shipper. It's a cycle that is decreasing the value of the reptile market because the drop-shipper prices are based on their margins, not on an animal's worth. They are all too happy to sell an animal at a "discount" off retail because they purchased the animal for way below that value.

I am guilty of what Tim did. I have been through the drop-shipper more than once. Getting the best price is a powerful motivator.

As a reptile breeder I need to buy from other reptile breeders, not from flippers/drop-shippers. I'm supporting my own kind if I do. Yes, I may pay a little more for the first few animals but I will eventually develop a rapport and a relationship with the breeder that gets me better prices. I wish I could readily identify professional flippers/drop-shippers. I think I'm fed up enough with the ball python business price declines to start paying higher prices to real breeders so I can get rid of the flippers.

Imagine if the real breeders organized against the full-time flippers (reptile dealers with no stock of their own) the way we have against HR 669. They'd be out in a month. Now that would be nice.

So Tim, I think what happened to you sucks. Fortunately the animal was worth the pain and heartache. But if you knowingly chose to buy from a flipper you should have anticipated at least part of what happened to you (sorry to not completely side with you on this one).

And yes, I know this is a bit off topic as to whether or not John is a bad guy but I would like to talk more about this if anyone is interested.

And yes, I also know that the "middle man" model is the basis of huge portions of our economy. But the ball python community is not so big that it requires middle-men. We can still buy direct.

Best Regards,

Colin Weaver

Colin, You are a Major Blow hard! But, I think I'm getting you now.. Carry On Sir!!

 

[Royal Morphz]

Just got a text from Jon asking me if I was "blasting" him. Now I don't think I was blasting Jon and I told him as much I said that we are adults and he should come here and state his side of this as there is always 2 sides of the story. But as of his last text saying i was rediculous, and good luck 2 me, in his words so I doubt he will come. I stated only the truth I have no reason to lie, I have only gotten good BP's from him but in the instance his communication sucked but as was found in another thread it has before.

 

[ForkedTung]

OK, If I am to believe the OP and am reading correctly
:A Payment, in full, of $1,100 was made by buyer on the 6th via a direct deposit to the seller bank, instead of Paypal, at the seller's request, for the sellers convenience, drastically reducing buyers chances of recovering money if something went wrong, and this transaction was agreed to by buyer in order to acquire the snake as soon as possible. The buyer was also expected to have a better working knowledge of seller's website and prices than seller? Then seller gives buyer run-around, quite literally for the next 9 days, all the while not knowing whether or not the animal is actually in possession of the seller and the buyer is basically forced to drive down there to pick up the snake in order to complete long, drawn out deal.
I wouldn't consider the seller a "Bad Guy" per se, but his business practices are sketchy at best and to be avoided at all costs...IMHO.

Good points Colin, Although I would like to point out that there is a difference between a Flipper and a Drop-Shipper as far as dealing with reptiles, and I think it's a pretty big one:

Flippers at one point actually take possession of the "product" whereas Drop-Shippers typically don't ever physically touch it ( it is shipped from producer directly to buyer) the scheming "middlemen" don't have to touch it with their grimy meathooks...lol

Why this is a big deal is that the "product" is living, breathing animal. The more an animal is moved the more stressed it is, the more variable environments it is in, the higher the potential for exposure to mites...IBD...and other forms of disease, abuse and neglect.
I would think that the breeders/producers have a more vested interest in maintaining the well being of their animal versus the "Flippers" and their slimy paws...

 

[ColinWeaver]

Good points Colin, Although I would like to point out that there is a difference between a Flipper and a Drop-Shipper as far as dealing with reptiles, and I think it's a pretty big one:

Flippers at one point actually take possession of the "product" whereas Drop-Shippers typically don't ever physically touch it ( it is shipped from producer directly to buyer) the scheming "middlemen" don't have to touch it with their grimy meathooks...lol

touché

 

[ColinWeaver]

Colin, You are a Major Blow hard! But, I think I'm getting you now.. Carry On Sir!!

That's an eloquent insult. Nice. Funny thing is that I don't talk much in person.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

He said he would try, and then told me that he was looking at his site and that the price on his site said 1200! I immediately went to his site and saw that not only did it say 1200, but his site was completed at this time.

Just to help clear this part up. It did state 1150 and then it was changed.

On April 6th Google crawled his page. The price was $1150.
This is the cached page for that day.
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache...jonsjungle.com+ivory&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

On April 9th Google crawled his site again. The price had changed to 1200.

Here is the page for that day.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache...jonsjungle.com+ivory&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

[Dennis Hultman]

This is Google's cache of http://jonsjungle.com/ball.php. It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on Apr 6, 2009 06:29:34 GMT. The current page could have changed in the meantime. Learn more

Text-only version
These search terms are highlighted: ivory These terms only appear in links pointing to this page: jonsjungle com

...........

 

[spawn]

I was told in 05' at Daytona to never buy from him.. Sad thing is I was told that by one of his Suppliers! Glad I listened

3rd party anonymous quotation - name your source please.