Bad Guy BEWARE OF PIJAC!!!!

[shrap]

Nah, just explaining why i'm here instead of drunk, full of bbq, and outside.

(and silently crying on the inside)

Well brother I wish you were closer, you would have been more than welcome to come over and listen to the race, eat cow, drink beer and tell lies with the rest of us this afternoon.

 

[shrap]

Uhh, Sammy, I'm cooking out on the grill, and drinking Corona, so, come on over!

Best,
Randal

That invite goes both ways if you are ever in my neck of the woods, Randal!

 

[KelliH]

Bobby is Bobby, Kel, you know that and I know that. What can I really say? The man has good intentions even if they are misguided sometimes. I dont think the man has an ill will bone in his body. I just think he does not always think things through before reacting. Then is too damn stubborn/prideful to even think about changing his point of view. I still love him to death though, as I do you, flaws and all.

Seeing good folks bickering at each other over crap that really aint important in the slightest.... well, lets just say it aint the gravy on my biscuits. I know we all aint going to walk hand in hand singing I Would Like To Buy The World A Coke but damn....

I hear ya and agree to a certain extent. Peace and Love, Peace and Love.

 

[BryonsBoas]

Far be it for me to drag up a tinkle contest but could someone explain to me the concept of the big boys shutting down hobbiest breeders to further their financial goals? I'm not seeing where the money would come from if 95% or more of their customer base is shot out the window. I know they could get some overseas sales but could they really survive for long if all we had was 25 - 30 ( if that many big breeders ) selling to each other?

I'm not seeing the logic.

 

[Russ Lawson]

Far be it for me to drag up a tinkle contest but could someone explain to me the concept of the big boys shutting down hobbiest breeders to further their financial goals? I'm not seeing where the money would come from if 95% or more of their customer base is shot out the window. I know they could get some overseas sales but could they really survive for long if all we had was 25 - 30 ( if that many big breeders ) selling to each other?

I'm not seeing the logic.

I too am hard-pressed to find how this would be on any big breeder's agenda. For a company to completely cut out its main source of income is suicide, let alone a handful of "elites" teaming up to do the same to their industry. I would also imagine that to result in a pretty large overseas blacklist. I know I wouldn't want to be supporting someone overseas who killed their industry in their own country. I just don't see any logical reason for any big breeder to go down such a self-destructive path.

This is not to say that I will blindly follow the big breeders; I far prefer to inform myself on these legal issues, and keep on top of what is going on myself. I just have a bit more faith in their wanting to keep the reptile industry alive in America. I know I would be fighting tooth and nail for it if I were in their positions. Hell, I've pretty much been doing that anyway.

 

[AF Exotics]

I think we need to get back on point.Bryon and Russ make excellent points.The USDA argument is really not the main force here,and should not be.Each of the aforementioned entities have their own area of emphasis,but do have broad "jurisdiction" to a point.Bring something in that is a possible threat to humans(any mammal with communicable disease potential) or agriculture,and you will draw the attention of the USDA,validating Kelli's experiences.

I think we can all agree they all have some latitude to make importing nerve wrecking at times.Now back to the main crux of this discussion.Not Brian and Bobby,but what is PIJAC willing and wanting to do,and how does it differ from USARK is willing and wanting to do?

Some may think this site may not be the place for this discussion.Ok then,offer the alternative and let them openly display what they stand for.There are groups that are very united and have drawn a bead on our very hobby/business/passion/livelihood/outlet...you know there are probably more,but you get the point.

 

[critical bill]

You are reading that wrong Bobby. They are referring to samples, blood, tissue, etc. it says absolutely NOTHING about LIVE reptiles. They are talking about MATERIALS! NOT LIVE ANIMALS! Read your own posts!
sheesh!

Do you even have a High School diploma? Your starting to worry me!
LOL!

Randal Berry

Is he actually reading that wrong? Or did you leave out the feces part on purpose just to get the edge and prove your argument?

I'm not accusing you, I'm just asking you because I'm a bit confused myself, and I do know what a cheap shot you can be when you get the feeling you're a bit smarter than everyone else.

So, my question is....

How can a reptile, a reptile that isn't alive, provide feces (see your statement as describing it as ..MATERIALS and not meaning live reptiles) for a sample for the USDA to collect/inspect?

It would seem to me that a reptile has to be alive in order to leave a sample of feces that the USDA would or could inspect.

Maybe I'm just as confused as Bobby is over what the USDA actually does. Maybe you can explain this for those of us who don't have a high school diploma but are slightly smarter than a fifth grader.

Please guide us and enlighten us with your wisdom oh great and wise zoo keeper zoo keeper zoo keeper.

 

[cahrens]

Far be it for me to drag up a tinkle contest but could someone explain to me the concept of the big boys shutting down hobbiest breeders to further their financial goals? I'm not seeing where the money would come from if 95% or more of their customer base is shot out the window. I know they could get some overseas sales but could they really survive for long if all we had was 25 - 30 ( if that many big breeders ) selling to each other?

I'm not seeing the logic.

Hey Bryon,
At first I thought the same thing... Why would these big breeders want to eliminate the little guys? The answer does make sense though. There are some "snake mills" who pump out tens of thousands of low end animals, corns, normal balls, etc. These are all sold to places like "insert name of big chain pet store here". The money is made in volume because they can't get much for these low end animals. There are just too many small breeders producing these same animals which keeps the market down on them. Think of it this way... If you're looking for a low end, pet snake, are you going to go to "big chain" and buy it and it's whole setup for $100-$150, or buy it from a small breeder for $20.00 who will also tell you what inexpensive housing you can get for it instead of trying to sell you the whole terrarium setup. It's this kind of competition that keeps the "big chain" prices in check. Once you eliminate small breeders, "big chain" will have no competition and can then raise the prices on their stuff. Once they're able to charge more for the animals, the snake mills will be able to get more for the stuff they produce, not to mention the fact that they will sell many more since there's no small breeders selling anymore. This is the same reason they want to stop importing. How much is a cbb normal baby ball worth when you see people selling ch babies for $9.00?

Also, I've heard that some of these snake mills want to make a lot of ball morphs pet store animals. Albinos, mojos, lessers, pins, yb's, spiders, pastels, etc. They want to flood the market with these to a point where the price falls enough to make them affordable as pets.

So as you can see, it would benefit the snake mills who produce mass quantities of low end animals. I really don't know what's going to happen, I just know that what I'm hearing is quite disturbing. It's nice to see someone like USARK who may be able to bring us together as a force to pursue a common goal. I've never seen a community bicker as much as this one.

 

[BryonsBoas]

I'm not down for snake mills either. I fully support responsible breeding on the part of the hobbiest. Nothing grates my nerves more than seeing an ad stating " I produced 10 litters and still have X amount to move because I bred 10 more and expecting them to drop anytime." I'm a member of various forums and some " hobbiests " have well over 200 breeders and run 100 females a season. The market is flooded due to over production, seeing the $$$ and production of subpar animals from folks that don't understand or refuse to research selective breeding. I don't always follow market prices myself because I REFUSE to let some nimrod that threw a pair a together and got a litter before I did set my prices.

Some of the animals we produce will be petshop animals because folks won't stop lowering prices. That isn't necessarily from over production as it is from the breeder cutting the price every 24 hours if it doesn't sell in a day. Why folks aren't prepared to sit on babies if need be is beyond me. The mentality that they will sell immediately is far too common and they slit their throats and anyone that follows suit like a lemming when they price slash. The big boys don't need an agreement to weed them out, they'll weed themselves out on their own. I think it was Brian from BHB that said something along the lines of certain morphs shouldn't drop below a suggested price. I tend to agree and find myself having a hard time selling a morph for the same price as a good normal.

I don't forsee any way for Congress to weed out the reptile mills and idiot breeders without it affecting everyone, including the big boys. BHB claims to produce 30,000 animals a year. That in itself could paint him as a snake mill.

Pet shops will need suppliers. I for see if they go after the snake and gecko mills that it will make it harder for an average person to buy a reptile from a petshop as a side effect. While I understand what you are saying, the logic still isn't hitting for me. Its like trying to kill a fly with a shotgun.

 

[Gloryhound]

Of course this is all through my discussion so you can take it how you want!

I actually was at BHB last Saturday and got to talk with Brian extensively. Carrently as what would be called a hobby breeder I have found Brian to be nothing but supportive of our endevor to breed ball pythons and that was before I ever purchased a single animal from him. Through my discussions with him he stated about 80%-90% of his business is from hobby and small scale breeding operations. His current idea is that he enjoys being a part of these peoples success and help them overcome any sticking points they may get too. If he wasn't as busy as he is trying to produce good publicity for the reptile hobby I'm sure he would be the guy doing the road trips to go hang out and have BBQ's and drink cold beer with hobby and small scale breeders on a regular basis.

Some things that I kinda picked up from the conversation that he did not say directly. While yes he does produce over 30,000 snakes a year I really think he is opposed to snake mills and a piece of legislation I could see him supporting would be laws that keep pet stores from buying snakes in mass for resale similar to the laws that have been put in place to stop puppy mills! After all if you could sell 1000 snakes for 10 dollars each or 10 snakes for 1000 dollars each, which would require more in the way of expenses? Also while he believes captive hatched imports are an excellent means to bring new blood and genes into the hobby I could see him getting behind some form of limiting the mass importation of thousands of CH snakes a year. Possibly putting a limit on the number coming in anually or limiting their distribution to breeders and not allowing them to be sold to pet stores for direct re-sale.

Ultimately he runs a business that supports his own family and provides an income to his employees. With that said he has to make sound business decisions. If everyone else is selling their normals in bulk to pet stores at X dollars each then he has to remain competitive with that to make sure his family eats and his employees continue to get a pay check. He has people counting on him for this. Maybe an example others will understand would be, if home builders build houses using 24" wall studs cutting the cost of their homes drastically and people are buying them compared to the more homes you build with 16" wall studs that you have to charge more for and thus are not getting people buying them what do you do? Change to 24" studs to make your homes competitive or go out of business? Maybe after you make the change you could push for home building code changes that require 16" wall studs as a max, but until then you have to stay competitive.

Ultimately it comes down to the end purchaser of a product. Since most people purchase their first snake on impulse from a chain pet store this is where efforts need to be concentrated to make the market better for breeders, not these supposed "big" breeders that some small breeders envy.

There is my nickle.

Until public statements are made and put on record all the assumptions people want to make can be made without changing my mind.

Ultimately what I said and everything else being said here is he said she said. It doesn't mean squat until the other person puts it in type. Yes he dialed the number and waited till at least the other end picked up. What happened from that point is unknown.

 

[lanceheads]

Is he actually reading that wrong? Or did you leave out the feces part on purpose just to get the edge and prove your argument?

I'm not accusing you, I'm just asking you because I'm a bit confused myself, and I do know what a cheap shot you can be when you get the feeling you're a bit smarter than everyone else.

So, my question is....

How can a reptile, a reptile that isn't alive, provide feces (see your statement as describing it as ..MATERIALS and not meaning live reptiles) for a sample for the USDA to collect/inspect?

It would seem to me that a reptile has to be alive in order to leave a sample of feces that the USDA would or could inspect.

Maybe I'm just as confused as Bobby is over what the USDA actually does. Maybe you can explain this for those of us who don't have a high school diploma but are slightly smarter than a fifth grader.

Please guide us and enlighten us with your wisdom oh great and wise zoo keeper zoo keeper zoo keeper.

Mr. Kimmel,
Yes, that was my quote, and I got that off the link provided by Bobby. Read the 3rd. link and you will see that it is talking about Materials.
And, yes sir, the USDA is confusing on what they can/cannot do.
However sir, I was just relying on my prior experience being in the zoo field and having to deal with USDA inspections. I think Kelli's post, #152, provides what I have been saying all along.
Have a GREAT MEMORIAL DAY Chuck!

Best,
Randal Berry

 

[varnyard]

David, it is not unknown, it happen. I really could give a rats ass less what some of these people think what might have happen. I stated what happen and backed it up with proof. That is what the BOI is all about, if some of you can't handle the truth, that is not my problem.

By the way where in the hell is Brian? What is it that he is sooooo afraid of here? He reads here and then posts on his blog, what a champ.

Anyhow, I said what happen just as it did and backed it up with proof, if you don't like the truth, then you are more then welcome to run way off in dream land with your "could be" garbage. However it is not a could be, might be, it is the fact.

I posted my phone bill Brian, now buck up and be a man.

Brian: Lastly on a personal note, I was accused of not taking a phone call from someone to explain my position on this. I can promise you that phone call never came from this person. I have talked with hundreds of people over the last month about hr669 and have never shy ed away from anyone. I will at anytime talk to anyone about this topic, so if you want to say I don’t have the balls to talk to you about it. Why don’t you put the proof up that you called me???? Post your phone record??? Because you can’t! You never called or never left a message.

You are so full of BS Brian, I called and left a message and you damn well know it!! Run Brian run, that's the answer, right Brian? I posted the proof, now it is up to Brian to come forward with the truth. I will not waste my time with "oh this could be, or that could be" garbage.

And Cahrens is 100% correct, I heard the same exact thing about mass production of cheap animals for pet stores, thus the reason for my call to good old Brian. And still yet to have an answer from him, no answer then, and no answer now.

 

[BryonsBoas]

If you left me a message with that kind of attitude, I wouldn't return a call either.

 

[varnyard]

If you left me a message with that kind of attitude, I wouldn't return a call either.

Well Bryon, my attitude was not bad until I got the feeling I was being jerked around, about like the feeling I have now about PIJAK and this whole mess.

I will bet one thing though, there will not be any answer until a deal is made on the white list with HSUS/PETA. Or if the white list does not get approved by HSUS/PETA they will say, see, it never happen. We never tried to strike a deal.

Either way, it smells like fish to me, and I don't trust liars.

 

[Tuxus]

If you left me a message with that kind of attitude, I wouldn't return a call either.

But would you claim that person never called?

I donno this thread is full of so much crap I don't know what to think. A ton of speculation ans unless I see action I can't really call it one way or another.

 

[BryonsBoas]

Nope, I'd say they called and why I didn't call back. Don't know Brian, can't speak for him but I'd imagine he either got told some irate person called, some a-hole called or he might not have gotten the message. I would think as busy as BHB is, there are possibilities he never got the message. Again , couldn't tell ya for sure.

Until I see names, REAL NAMES, added to the speculations and rumors, then this is another Bobby Hill tirade as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Tuxus]

Nope, I'd say they called and why I didn't call back. Don't know Brian, can't speak for him but I'd imagine he either got told some irate person called, some a-hole called or he might not have gotten the message. I would think as busy as BHB is, there are possibilities he never got the message. Again , couldn't tell ya for sure.

Yes that could have happened if he was in fact irate, Bobby claims he was not and I have no proof to think he was, I am not one to make assumptions such as that. Doing such would be calling him a liar without proof, not something a smart person does.

I can't say Brian got the message and decided to not call back, I can't say he didn't get the message either, what I can say is that you left out that one option of him getting the message which makes me wonder if you have an opinion on the matter. If you do I'd like to hear it and the reasoning behind it, I'm someone open to hearing all sides so long as they have some basis for their stance.

Big breeders forcing small breeders out would help them corner the parts of the market in which those smaller breeders hold and allow them to sell to every pet store in the country without competition for example but I simply have not been a party to any of this stuff so can't reach a conclusion on any of it. Like I said too much speculation in so many areas for anyone whom hasn't been involved to know for sure what is going on. We only know what those involved want us to know. What does this mean? It means 99% of us are in the dark and are really just creating hypothetical scenarios based on our deductive reasoning skills, really it is pointless as we don't know the facts.

Only time will tell.

 

[R. Eventide]

I am hesitant to jump into this conversation, especially being such a lurker as I, but here goes.

1. There has been no proof shown of the accusations against Brian or other big breeders. Saying, "I've shown proof!" over and over does not make it so.

2. The phone record shows that you called. It does not prove that you did anything more than that. It does not prove you left a message, and it does not prove that you even had time to leave a message. The phone company rounds up on unfinished minutes. Unless you think we'd believe that both calls where you showed the duration were exactly 2:00 minutes and 1:00 minute long...?

3. Given the above, Brian can't really say that you never called. HOWEVER, that does not mean you did any more than that. For all we know, you could've called him just to get the "proof" to support your argument.

4. I've never bought anything from Brian, nor have I exchanged e-mails, phone calls, or any other form of communication with him. So going all conspiracy theory on me doesn't work.

5. We need to stop bickering amongst ourselves and work together. If we start pointing fingers at each other, then we will destroy the hobby ourselves--we won't need politicians to do it for us!

 

[shrap]

2. The phone record shows that you called. It does not prove that you did anything more than that. It does not prove you left a message, and it does not prove that you even had time to leave a message. The phone company rounds up on unfinished minutes. Unless you think we'd believe that both calls where you showed the duration were exactly 2:00 minutes and 1:00 minute long...?

3. Given the above, Brian can't really say that you never called. HOWEVER, that does not mean you did any more than that. For all we know, you could've called him just to get the "proof" to support your argument.

Now I have read this type of garbage from a couple of different members. A liar is one thing Bobby Hill aint. If Bobby says he left a message then he left a message. End of story.

 

[kmurphy]

IMO people need to ease up on this liar name calling. Obviously Bobby called Brian. Whether Brian actually got the message is another story. Bobby needs to stop calling Brian a liar for saying he never called, because he may not have known that he did, and Brian certainly needs to apologize for saying the Bobby was lying about the call.

But I've go another question. Why don't you just call again? I assume you want to know what's really going on instead of just rumors on a BOI thread and Brian has already said he would have accepted the call if it had been made? So call again and be done with it.

Lastly this thread should never have been started with so little to go on and resulting from a short phone message that possibly never was heard.