Info Amy Zerkle's temper, beware!

[Tiger Lilly]

My .02

I guess what I don't understand is why Amy is demanding all of the snakes back for a full refund rather than just refunding for the one damaged snake like the OP asked for. In her emails she stated she was perfectly happy with the others and wanted to keep them and Amy basically said no if you're not happy with the one then I want them all back(paraphrasing). That seems a little off to me.

Why can't a partial refund be made?
If you go to the store, and buy 10 of the same item, and 1 doesn't work. You can ask for a refund on that "one" item.
Why should this be any different?

Im guessing it was a group price for the 4 snakes and would be easier to refund the money and get them all back then it would be just one. I could see why she would want them all back being a seller. Makes it easier then to try to figure out a price for a single animal.

The fact that the seller wants ALL the snakes back is rediculous, imo. That she sold them at a group rate is no excuse for not refunding part of the money. How hard is it to take the total, divide by 4 & possibly take the difference of the single price of that snake & add 1/2 of it to the total for a refund? OK, writing it out is a lot more difficult than doing the actual math would be...

Why post something thinly veiled threats like this on an online forum when you hadn't even let Amy know that there was an issue with the snake in the first place?!?!??!?! If I was Amy, I'd be more than a little peeved about it, and would think of it as losing a problem buyer rather than a valued customer.

Not to mention the fact that Beth didn't even bother to ask Amy if there was a possible mix up in the labels...or better yet, isn't there someone in your area that can sex snakes? If not, that alone is a good incentive for you to learn! (I know I need to, but I have someone that does that for me when I need to double check.)

I had a similar situation a couple of years ago. A customer bought a Cal King and i failed to notice that the very tip (about two scales) of the tail had a kink. The buyer had puchased a pair. I offered two choices.
1. Send it back at my expense for a refund
2. A 50% refund on the animal.
The buyer took option 2 and everyone went away happy.
While I truly believe that the OP should have, out of courtesy, resolved any problems before posting, i also think that the seller is over reacting a bit.
A step back and a couple of deep breaths would probably put this rather easy to resolve situation in perspective.

Sounds like an equitable resolution for both parties involved!
Can't agree more about them taking deep breaths...otherwise we may end up with another "my-snake-is-ill-and-at-the-vet-so-I-want-you-to-refund-my-money-pay-the-vet-bill/boarding-AND-I-am-keeping-the-snake" thread!

 

[Quibble]

Well just to point this out, I didnt know if they were in fact mislabled, I thought they may have been. So while I was showing off my new additions I included sexing photos just to be sure and to get many second opinions. I didnt want to blame Amy for mixing up lables if she didnt, you know? I didnt mention anything about the BOI untill well after this point.

 

[Quibble]

Can't agree more about them taking deep breaths...otherwise we may end up with another "my-snake-is-ill-and-at-the-vet-so-I-want-you-to-refund-my-money-pay-the-vet-bill/boarding-AND-I-am-keeping-the-snake" thread!

I asked for options. To split shipping costs for a replacement, or to split bills for a vet, or anything else, all she had to suggest was send them all back for a full refund, which I didnt want to do.

At this point I dont think all of this conflict is worth a little bent snake, so Ill keep her and pay for any vet care she may need if she doesnt start eating regularly.

 

[Tiger Lilly]

My bad...

I asked for options. To split shipping costs for a replacement, or to split bills for a vet, or anything else, all she had to suggest was send them all back for a full refund, which I didnt want to do.

That was in reference to a long, drawn-out mini-series type BOI thread a while back. It was not intended to make you sound like that AT ALL!
(I am pm'ing you the thread, for a little light reading when you're bored...)
It was (bad) effort at making a joke while not thinking that not everyone would know what it was about...oops.

 

[Temporalis_Enterprises]

I have alerted Amy to the thread

Hello Amy,
I just wanted to let you know that there was a BOI conversation involving you. In case you have not yet been alerted to this it is a negative thread.


--
Thanks,
David Deem
www.herpcity.webs.com
703-789-7221

Amy is a good person and I see why she is upset. She breeds to notch and rare animals and does it better than most anyone I know! She knows what she is doing.

 

[Quibble]

Im sure Amy is a great person, and I do not doubt the quality of her collection.

But I just feel like I've been slapped in the face via e-mail after asking simple questions that I had every right to ask.

My experiences should be known.

 

[jayefbe]

Im sure Amy is a great person, and I do not doubt the quality of her collection.

But I just feel like I've been slapped in the face via e-mail after asking simple questions that I had every right to ask.

My experiences should be known.

If you have some "simple questions" to ask, ask the breeder. Don't bring up on a message board first.

 

[Fangthane]

If you have some "simple questions" to ask, ask the breeder. Don't bring up on a message board first.

What does it really matter WHO she discussed it with first? She could have asked her Rabbi for advice and it still wouldn't have done anything to negate the fact that she ended up with a flawed snake. Wrong is wrong. As Tiger Lilly pointed out, it it doesn't require a degree in quantum mechanics to figure out a refund amount for 1 out of the 4 snakes. I can't imagine why the seller would really want to make her jump through hoops.

 

[jayefbe]

What does it really matter WHO she discussed it with first? She could have asked her Rabbi for advice and it still wouldn't have done anything to negate the fact that she ended up with a flawed snake. Wrong is wrong. As Tiger Lilly pointed out, it it doesn't require a degree in quantum mechanics to figure out a refund amount for 1 out of the 4 snakes. I can't imagine why the seller would really want to make her jump through hoops.

She posted on a forum, and anyone that read carefully could have deduced who the breeder was. What may have initially been a simple mislabeling and a injury during shipping, now looks to everyone that read the thread on thamnophis as an untrustworthy breeder. In my opinion, that's unfair to a breeder that has shown her dedication and expertise for years. I firmly believe that if Beth had gone to Amy before posting a thread, this whole mess would already be resolved and both parties would be happy.

 

[Fangthane]

If it's that easy to piss her off to the point where she's not even willing to be reasonable..then I'd have to say she's not someone I'd want to deal with anyway. You're arguing moot points.

 

[Zack319]

She posted on a forum, and anyone that read carefully could have deduced who the breeder was. What may have initially been a simple mislabeling and a injury during shipping, now looks to everyone that read the thread on thamnophis as an untrustworthy breeder. In my opinion, that's unfair to a breeder that has shown her dedication and expertise for years. I firmly believe that if Beth had gone to Amy before posting a thread, this whole mess would already be resolved and both parties would be happy.

Have you ever read the thread on thamnophis?
BETH NEVER EVEN MENTIONED THE BREEDER

Beth did not make threats thread, she pointed out "IF" Amy was not going to help her out she (Beth) would make a thread in the BOI about the issue.
Never once did she mention Amy's name, apparently neither you or Amy can handle actually taking the time to read the thread on thamnophis.

 

[Zack319]

Beth did not make threats on that thread*

 

[hhmoore]

Speaking from experience, it is quite natural for a seller to be irritated after discovering that a customer has been posting on a forum seeking help with a problem, rather than coming back to the person that knows the animal (the seller).
It was in the Thamnophis.com thread that some of the comments that apparently set Amy off were made; but, IMO, Amy could have done a better job of separating forum jabber from what her customer was telling her. (*This statement made without the knowledge of what was posted on the OTHER forum you went to with the problem, but accepting that it was pretty much the same.) After all, it was another forum member that opined that the snake was probably WC....and that you get what you pay for.
From her responses to you, it is pretty clear that she wants to erase this transaction from the record books. The all or nothing approach is a bit harsh (again, IMO), especially since The Beth has stated she is happy with the other three. I can understand Amy's position, but that doesn't mean that I think it is the correct one at this time.

Best of luck in getting things worked out.

 

[jayefbe]

I did read the thread. She does mention Amy's name. Maybe she only brought it up after she also posted this thread, I dunno. But she's got two "bad guy" threads about Amy at this point. Plus, in her last post on the thamnophis thread, she says that she intends on breeding "lumpy". Kink and all. If I was Amy, I'd like a do-over too.

 

[Miss Tuniwha]

Speaking from experience, it is quite natural for a seller to be irritated after discovering that a customer has been posting on a forum seeking help with a problem, rather than coming back to the person that knows the animal (the seller).
It was in the Thamnophis.com thread that some of the comments that apparently set Amy off were made; but, IMO, Amy could have done a better job of separating forum jabber from what her customer was telling her. (*This statement made without the knowledge of what was posted on the OTHER forum you went to with the problem, but accepting that it was pretty much the same.) After all, it was another forum member that opined that the snake was probably WC....and that you get what you pay for.
From her responses to you, it is pretty clear that she wants to erase this transaction from the record books. The all or nothing approach is a bit harsh (again, IMO), especially since The Beth has stated she is happy with the other three. I can understand Amy's position, but that doesn't mean that I think it is the correct one at this time.

Best of luck in getting things worked out.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts. I would be irritated if I sold something, and saw it being discussed elsewhere before I got a chance to point out my opinion.

But.. Replacement of THAT particular snake would be (imo) the sensible solution.


and on a side note. on here, just like myspace and such. people don't need to really "KNOW" you to add you as a friend. I have had people try to add me because.. well. I dunno. LOL.. I personally do not add people that I do not know well. But that is just ME. (look at those people on myspace with 500 "friends")
so I really don't think that holds any merit to the situation.

 

[KelliH]

I did read the thread. She does mention Amy's name. Maybe she only brought it up after she also posted this thread, I dunno. But she's got two "bad guy" threads about Amy at this point. Plus, in her last post on the thamnophis thread, she says that she intends on breeding "lumpy". Kink and all. If I was Amy, I'd like a do-over too.

Nope, she posts the name before this thread was started.

07-11-2009, 02:08 PM #28 (permalink)
Quibble
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Re: expensive b-day
Amy wants me to send them all back to her because I asked for help about Lumpy. Does that seem fair at all?
If anyone wants to see the whole e-mail convo pm me.
__________________
-Beth
"We call our grandad spiderman- not because he has any super powers but because he can't climb out of the bathtub."
0.1 Thamnophis Butleri -Gimpie

 

[Aaron Mattson]

But the buyer did not post the breeder's name until after she had contacted the breeder and the breeder offered an unreasonable solution.

This is the first sentence in which Amy's name was mentioned publicly:

"Amy wants me to send them all back to her because I asked for help about Lumpy. Does that seem fair at all?"

Beth got some snakes that she had some questions and concerns about. Without mentioning any names, she discreetly asked for expert opinions from an impartial third party. When the third party reenforced her concerns she obviously contacted the breeder but recieved an unreasonable solution. Only then did she mention the breeders name in public.

Even if it was an honest mistake on Amy's part not to have noticed the kink, it was still her responsibility and Beth should not have to "un-buy" the 3 snakes just because the breeder was negligent with the 4th snake. Once such an unreasonable solution was offered I see no further obligation to withold the breeders name from the public.

 

[Quibble]

Also, I want to make it clear that I didnt label this thread as 'bad guy'. Amy is not a 'bad guy', she just made a simple mistake, and my experiences were escalated into a problem.

 

[Darcpixie]

I would also like to make people aware of something very common, and something that almost everyone here does, as people that post on a forum already.

You go to purchase snakes. You are excited! They are wonderful, and you really want them! So you post about it to people who will care. People on a forum about those animals! Everyone is excited! Both for you, and to SEE NEW SNAKES!!

OK. So you bought them. They are shipping! They are here! Where are pictures!?! So you post pictures, because you and everyone else is excited that they are there!

But wait! Why does the male look like a female, and the female a male? Are we sure that's what they are? Oh Well, pretty anyway!....

Does this sound to ANYONE like what happens when you make a purchase, as a hobbiest? In general, people on the forum already KNOW about your purchase, and want to see them when they arrive. If there is a problem, it may be the people on the forum that NOTICE it.

Amy was notified of the possible mislabeling AND the kink, and MY reading of the emails from Beth were respectful, but indicated that she was worried about the animal and its possible uses as a breeder, for which it was purchased.

The thread on the other forum looks JUST like what I see on cornsnakes.com. An excited person, posting pictures. Some likely far-fetched opinions. I mean, on the cornsnake forums, what is the FIRST cry when something new is seen? HYBRID!! Yet does that make that opinion correct? No! It's just that, an opinion. The observations of Parasites and Wild Caught were not only posted by the same person, but with no additional information provided. But THIS is what made Amy so mad?!?

That some RANDOM person suggested this, and someone who bought from her said *it came up as a possibility, and this scared me about my new pets, so I'm coming to you for reassurance and assistance.*

This was, in no way, what she received. From what I see here, I think it would be fair for her to receive a partial refund on the snake in question, especially as this appears to have been a purchase by a hobbiest, and not a large-scale breeder, she is interested in keeping the snake because, well, she likes the snake. It's not JUST a commodity anymore.

This terrifies me in that the All Ohio Show is the ONLY one I go to... I would be afraid to buy, at this point? What if I had a problem?

To all the people that keep saying it shouldn't have been brought up on a forum, this is hogwash. People talk, get excited, share their new acquisitions. How many people that you know do not tell ANYONE that they are getting a new animal until it is out of quarantine and past all guarantees. I don't know ANYONE who does this.

I hope things work out for you, Beth.

/end useless ramble

 

[A&RZerkle]

OK let me say...

Thanxs for the notice
I just got the BOI notice this morning(Monday)
we were in Akron for the Ultra fish bowl Show Sat-Sun-we keep tropical fish too.
Since there are 6 pages of replies i want everyone to know the details/parameters of this exchange
The 4 garters were a package deal
I pd shipping-
I had the snakes ready to ship when the pickup arrived-in my haste to finish boxing -I put the sex symbol post-it on the cups i juxaposed the sexes.Simple and honest mistake.
I had no intent to post but the whole thing is past ridiculous.
Now I have no better way to rectify the deal gone bad than refund the money. I was quite surprized Beth didnt send me any pic's at first but rather choose to post for everyone in the world to sex the snakes online and do diagnosis over the pc before even notifying me. At that point i had someone tell me it was on the forum-I was all news to me as i read the forum and commentary by beth that she would used the BOI if everything didnt go to her satisfaction .I knew this was immenient and welcome the use of the BOI. I have know slavemaster Rich for many many years and appreciate the site he has created for all us herpers to use .HAving been in this industry since 1983 and this is my first BOI inquiry I guess it was about time.::grin::
As far as paying a vet-as I told Beth I know very few vets that can accurately treat a snake , I have had more animals killed by over medication or misdiagnosis -I would prefer to use my own trusted vet should there be an treatable issue.
It is senseless to take a kink to vet -it is what is is. As i stated it was minimal and not seen ,I have herd of garters A room full of them -housed in colonies i keep back the highest colors babies and raise them for myself There are several females in that tank,i choose the bluest and largest for her. I take responsibilty for my error,however i do not generally sell any of my personal collection and have no other garter to replace this one with. I simply wanted to just reverse this deal.At this point have no other yearling female garters to trade , so therein lies the impasse. The original deal was to be she was to meet me in cleveland and see the animals in person. Then it was too far,gas was to expensive -she really wanted some garters etc etc -I find it humourous that I was trying to do her a favor bending over backward to help her get started and it blowsup online. If it comes down to questioning if i can sex a snake, if i am sellinng wc as cb then ask me, dont run out to every tom dick and harry and ask their opinion. It reminds me of a guy at the reptile show that had everybody in Columbus probe his blood python.When he came to our table and ask if we could sex his snake , Rob said he would glad to help.Looking at the vent it was bloody mess, he ask what happened to this animal-the owner said well i dunno i had everyone here check it.....very sad state of affairs.
To recap:I can sex a snake..... there is a pair ,
The animals were bred here i just had 11 blues born Fri nite and 34 Fla blues , sorry no pics yet I am still putting up fish from the Bowl Show where my bugett frog took 1st place.) ......Oh sorry must get back to this -
As I see it there is no trust The relationship is fractured. To be quite honest i am not fighting I thought giving back her money was most fair thing i can do. I havent been in this business by being questionable or making shady deals -my phone number and email have been the same for 15 yrs -
As i stated when i have a tracking number i will refund the 1/2 the bal when they arrive the other 1/2 minus shipping-or bring them to me in cleveland SUnday the 19th. Rob (my husband)& Shay put on the show I am there every month. Or I will be in Columbus Saturday at the Reptile Show where i have been a vendor every month since 1988.
I will hand you your money
Thanxs for everyones input ,
Herpers know this is small community we all know each other - this forum helps everyone by letting each of us reveal our side of the conflict
Kindest Regards
Amy