BOI Ultimanium - What do you think?

[Precision Pythons]

international owner?

Would it be possible to have someone in another counter own the BOI? From what I've heard, conducting a lawsuit internationally is extremely difficult....and this would offer a measure of protection for the BOI, no?

JonV

 

[MedusaCoils]

Don't forget, Lucille, a law suit cost the plaintiff money too. If they want to get beyond the threat stage they have to pony up.

Just curious, and maybe this has been answered before. Has there ever been a law suit?

I think Rich has mentioned that he gets threats of law suits, but to date, none have been filed. I may be wrong, but that is the impression I get.

Wayne

 

[Dennis Hultman]

I realize that the BOI is a huge burden, not just financially, but because of the difficulty moderating it. The BOI is an invaluable tool, but I've been dismayed by the inherent negativity within posts by people other than the individual(s) involved in the transaction, be it good or bad. Is there a possibility that if the BOI can get enough funding to stay that we could think about restructuring it to prevent this kind of angsty trolling? The BOI has lost a lot of credibility with me personally, and I know I'm not alone in my disappointment. At its conception, the BOI was an incredible resource, but now I must sift through pages upon pages of noxious finger pointing before I can sift through the anger and see the story for myself.

I appreciate the monumental task that is placed upon the staff of Fauna to moderate the BOI, but I honestly can't put money towards something that has become essentially non-functional. If there is promise of dedicated and strict moderation to prevent trolling in the BOI, then perhaps myself and others would be more inclined to support it.

Honestly, if there wasn't so much slander and angst in the BOI, it would stand up much better in court if any lawsuits were filed and help you out in the end anyway. I would be more than happy to attend any brainstorming sessions if that would help! I really want the BOI to succeed, and please don't see this post as being pessimistic, but more along the line of a friendly suggestion from someone who has been using this site for years.

Just a couple of quick points that may or not be relevant considering were now in a different ballpark debating the risk of keeping the BOI open after Rich's retirement not merely keeping the users happy.

Strict moderation was tried on several occasions and it resulted in loss of traffic and posts within the site. During that time some new members joined and liked the format but I don't think it was enough to get the traffic up. When the rules were relaxed a bit the traffic and posts went back up.

I think Rich logically gathered from this that the majority of people here want some of the fluff and to be completely honest the strict moderation prevented some from being exposed for their misdeeds.

While some posters have and do go off topic more than others and some are constantly going way overboard I think you may have noticed that our tolerance for those individuals have been much less in the last few months.
Three day suspension and user bannings have been going up considerably since the new warning system here was implemented. It is done automatically for the most part.

But I have to disagree about the point of the the BOI at its conception. If you compare the BOI of today and the BOI of 2002 the threads then were much rougher than now. Mudslinging was harsh and posters were drilled just as much if not more then now to expose the truth of a situation.

A point about deleting some of the posts within threads.

Actually, it opens the site up to more liability than leaving the posts as I understand it.
Fauna doesn't make the posts the individuals do. When we are selective about deleting posts or altering titles of BOI threads we essentially become coauthors of those posts and threads. That is why we don't delete or alter posts unless they specifically violate the stated site rules. If we did we would also loss credibility.

To be real honest most never had a problem with the way things worked here. The many members that were around participating within the site back between lets say 2002-2004,05 most never had a problem with the way things were run. It was a much rougher place then now but there was never much of a cry about it. The members liked it that way. Many in the industry expected the BOI to be a tough place and you had better come here with your facts and proof in hand or you received no mercy. It wasn't until the first time Rich tried to introduce the members program that people started to voice a large derogatory opinion. It wasn't until Rich tried a little more strictness with the rules that people started to complain more.

When the site tried to relax back to what it was then the new members became upset too. So Rich couldn't make anyone happy.

So, I would have to disagree with several of your points.

I would also have to strongly disagree with this point as well.

has become essentially non-functional.

I respect your position but will have to disagree.
I don't think the thousand of dollars some that I know that have saved because of recent threads is nonfunctional.

If I really had to take the time and go back and link for you where some very functional things have taken place on the BOI over the last several months I will if need be. Where people have recovered animals due to other members. Where people have recovered funds do to the intervention of other members reading their threads.

There was just a thread last week that a member posted about being scammed on craigslist. Another member read that post, was in the location of that scammer and retrieved his animals. It's nothing new here it happens all the time that the members of this forum go above and beyond to help out this community.
Nonfunctional I would completely disagree with.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

do=due

 

[Helenthereef]

Other ways to get people to join up.....

I don't think that the BOI is the only earner here. I think that if you want to SELL anything on the site you should have to be a Contributing Member. That would bring the numbers up.

I voted "BOI for Contributing members only", but only because I didn't like the other 2 options. If that had been the case when I first started visiting Fauna, I would never have known there WAS a BOI, so that wouldn't get new visitors to join up. I'd make a "Taster" of older BOI threads available for all to view, and THEN tell everyone they had to join to participate.

I'd also ensure that there were automatic messages in use to:
1. Remind existing members when it's time to renew
2. Advise those who have made 50 or more posts that as active users they should join, and why (i.e.,it's not JUST for traders)
3. Ask exisiting members to put something onto their signatures to remind others to join

 

[WebSlave]

Yeah, I know it would be just peachy if myself and the mods could know intuitively who is lying and who is not. Be able to tell at a glance what is libel and what is unpleasant (to someone) truth. To be able to tell immediately what is off topic garbage and what is someone angling to prod the truth or provoke a slip of the tongue from someone. Yes, it would be nice to be able to know all those things and weed them out of threads to unclutter them. So if any of you out there have this gift, then please, get with me when you can to let me know how you do it.

As Dennis has indicated, I have been gradually tightening the lines between which posts are considered as acceptable fare in the BOI. Once in the past, I got tired of all the yammering about the need to tighten up the rules, so I did. I lowered the boom and got VERY strict. Like, "one wrong step and you get banned with a $10 fine to be reinstated" kind of strict. Yeah, too much, too quickly. You would be surprised at the number of threatened lawsuits I got then from people who felt that they had some sort of legal right to say what they wanted, HOW they wanted on the BOI. So at some point I just threw my hands up in disgust and virtually walked away from this site.

Actually, I believe it was the DDoS attack we had here that was the stimulus and incentive for me to grab the rudder again. That attempt to shut down this site got me pissed off enough that I just felt like HELL NO! So I began restructuring things gradually to try to make things here pretty much the way they used to be a while back. Which is, to make this site what I want it to be. Make the rules strict enough to keep as much of the bonafide garbage out (which included permanently banning some members, and pointed warnings to others that they were in the crosshairs) but not strict enough to muzzle possible lines of inquiry and cross examination that would probably be instructive for readers, if not perhaps convoluted while taking place.

Will this work? Beats me, but I've tried everything else I can think of, so by default, this is the way it's going to be. I don't plan on pleasing everyone, and quite frankly, I really don't care that I can't. People have been judging ME by this site, so like it or not, it's going to be what I want it to be. Certainly it will not fit some people, and although I am sorry about that, there are plenty of other places for those people to go to be happier then they are here. I wish them well, and sincerely hope they don't force me to get them to leave here, as perhaps sometime in the future they may have a change of attitude that may be more fitting with what I want here. At which time, coming on back and fitting in will still be an option to them.

But in any event, thanks for all the suggestions about how to change the BOI, but at this point in time, I am not really considering that as an option. At least not in the sense that it would require more time, money and effort out of me. With this upcoming retirement, that sort of thing certainly is not something I have in mind doing then. I mean, I know it was with good intentions and everything, but did someone seriously suggest that I or someone else go through all 194,999 posts in 11,546 threads on the BOI to try to edit out stuff that I (or they) thought was needing to be edited or deleted out? Besides the earlier mentioned legal liabilities of such actions, quite frankly that would be a monumental task. And as mentioned just above, I certainly have no intention of boiling away my retirement doing such a thing.

 

[WebSlave]

I don't think that the BOI is the only earner here. I think that if you want to SELL anything on the site you should have to be a Contributing Member. That would bring the numbers up.

Sorry, but no it wouldn't. About two years ago this past March (2007), I did just that. And I continued that plan for about a year (until 03/2008). Traffic gradually died away the entire time and nearly sunk this site. So I dropped it completely, and it is only recently that traffic has gotten back to the levels they were at prior to that disaster. Yeah, I had a lot more paid memberships, but those too would have died away once the realization that traffic was gone finally had gotten realized by those paying members.

Here's the thread where I discuss the results of that fiasco -> http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109005

 

[WebSlave]

So a couple of bad guys working together and filing at the same time could take down the BOI.

Yes, quite possibly. But that is really hard to say. I'm kind of hard headed and really don't like it when someone takes a serious swipe at me. Probably the guy who launched that DDoS attack a while back figured I would just say screw it and walk away from this. But the exact opposite happened. I got REALLY pissed and decided to grab the bull by the horns and take control again.

As for an actual lawsuit, well if I feel it has merit and I actually screwed up somewhere, then I would just have to take my lumps and get on with life. But if it is something frivolous and merely a nuisance suit with the hopes of a settlement that will get the plaintiff what they REALLY want, well forget about it. I can afford to fight it and will do so VIGOROUSLY with the intention of winning and then filing a massive countersuit using the ironclad evidence freshly gained from that previous case. Whenever I get threats of lawsuits coming my way, and I decide to just not ignore it but instead reply, I make a point of mentioning that my role in running this site is protected by federal law, and substantial case history, from liability for third party posts. I do this for a reason. That reason is that I want it on record that anyone ignoring this information and filing a lawsuit anyway can then be charged with willfully engaging in a FEDERAL CRIME, and not just involving a civil action. This makes the repercussions of someone filing such a lawsuit a whole lot more of a serious issue to be playing with.

Chances are someone with substantial history of being a bad guy on the BOI filing such a lawsuit would have a pretty rough time of it when that sort of character witness evidence is reviewed by the judge and jury...

 

[Helenthereef]

it seems very unfair that there are people selling repeatedly without being members. But I'm sure you've tried everything.

 

[Helenthereef]

Just to add to my last post, though, from my own experience and from what other posters said in other threads, I think that there are a lot of us who simply didn't think about joining, and the membership benefits list you see when you click the banner really reads as though it is directed mostly at traders.

Personally, as someone outside the USA and not regularly buying reptiles, I read BOI for entertainment, not for directly useful information, and yet I still feel it is important to support the site (now that this has been pointed out to me by this debate).

There are others who have posted similar sentiments. I think that if you word the banner differently it could make a difference. Maybe instead of "Want to help support this site? Click Here" it could be something stronger like "Fauna needs you! If you enjoy being part of this community, become an Active Contributing Member now!"

Even the best intentioned of us sometimes need a little encouragement. (Without sounding like we're selling timeshare here....)

 

[Helenthereef]

If you made an additional fee to join the BOI club, would that give you legal protection? As in, this is a private club not a public forum, so you can say what you like?

 

[snowgyre]

Dennis and Webslave, thank you very much for your informative posts. I didn't join Fauna until 2005, and perhaps my memory is a bit fogged by the wistful recollections of 'the good old days'. I've administered several websites (including one for 6 years now), so I fully appreciate how difficult it is to run a site, let alone a portion of a site such as the BOI.

I'll be honest. At first I voted to let the BOI die, even though it really is a good resource. I was throwing ideas out there as much for my benefit as for yours, trying to think of ways to improve the BOI to perhaps extend its life span, beyond the most pressing need for money to stave off possible lawsuits. Right now you've got a crusade of people who are willing to donate money in one fashion or other to support the BOI, but the real trick will be to keep getting donations from people once the immediate threat of the BOI shutting down is past.

I just wish there was a way to cut down on the rampant flaming. Beyond what you've already experimented with (and fruitlessly wishing for people to play nice), I really don't know how you could accomplish that.

Honestly I'm surprised that your subscriptions went down when people had to pay to post in the Classifieds section. If I remember correctly, the fee was only $10 a year? Or was it 6 months? Regardless, it was far cheaper than advertising on kingsnake. I know I paid the fee and didn't think much of it at the time.

I'm assuming the money you get for ad placement isn't doing much beyond supporting the site itself?

Have you actually discussed about potential lawsuits with a lawyer? For the most part, the evidence in posts is rather self-explanatory and I doubt a judge would be willing to hold a case. It would be interesting to know how an organization such as the Better Business Bureau deals with liability.

 

[High End Royal Pythons]

how about this????

could the BOI be setup more along the lines of a transaction feedback system similar to the one used by the internets largest online auction? seems to be working pretty well for them!

 

[dprince]

Have you actually discussed about potential lawsuits with a lawyer? For the most part, the evidence in posts is rather self-explanatory and I doubt a judge would be willing to hold a case. It would be interesting to know how an organization such as the Better Business Bureau deals with liability.

I think the issue is that someone very likely *could* try to sue the site, and the legal fees that would need to be paid to defend said suit is what would cost money, irregardless in the end whether or not Rich won the case. That, I believe, is the catch. (If I'm reading your question right. )

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

could the BOI be setup more along the lines of a transaction feedback system similar to the one used by the internets largest online auction? seems to be working pretty well for them!

What happens to the existing BOI? What about all the people who don't use Fauna? This is why suggestions such as that just won't work.

 

[WebSlave]

could the BOI be setup more along the lines of a transaction feedback system similar to the one used by the internets largest online auction? seems to be working pretty well for them!

That would make it a closed loop system whereby only transactions that took place on this site would be involved in any feedback system. Quite frankly, I don't believe the percentage of such transactions here related to all other avenues available to buyers and sellers would support such a scheme.

 

[AbsoluteApril]

What happens to the existing BOI?

I hope there's a way to at least archive the BOI if it has to go away. Screen shots if nothing else but then it would not be searchable (and that's a heck of a lot of screen shots! lol) Is there any way the archive can be done where there is no liability exposure? Isn't the original BOI archived?

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I hope there's a way to at least archive the BOI if it has to go away. Screen shots if nothing else but then it would not be searchable (and that's a heck of a lot of screen shots! lol) Is there any way the archive can be done where there is no liability exposure? Isn't the original BOI archived?

Nope. When Rich meant he was closing down the BOI, he meant removing everything. Their would be no way to keep any of it online without it being a liability. Gone means gone.

 

[High End Royal Pythons]

What happens to the existing BOI? What about all the people who don't use Fauna? This is why suggestions such as that just won't work.

it seems to me that most BOI threads that i see are inquiries about people who have ads here on fauna. it may not be a perfect solution but from the looks of the discussion so far in this thread, i don't think there is such a thing as a perfect solution. i definitely think the BOI is very helpful and i would hate to see it go. do you have a better solution?

 

[Seamus Haley]

Honestly I'm surprised that your subscriptions went down when people had to pay to post in the Classifieds section. If I remember correctly, the fee was only $10 a year? Or was it 6 months? Regardless, it was far cheaper than advertising on kingsnake. I know I paid the fee and didn't think much of it at the time.

The people using those sections were getting it for free prior to that, so any cost, no matter how reasonable it might have been, was an infinite increase in price.

I think there's a great deal of difficulty in identifying specific changes, tweaks, additions or rules changes that might have been responsible for contributor increases or decreases. The various packages offered have been all over the place in terms of costs and benefits as Rich tried out variables that altered exactly what a user would be obtaining for their contribution.

The changes came too frequently though. There were some people who paid in for a year and were then given three or even four different sets of benefits for what they had contributed over that time period. The BOI has been pay to post, the classifieds have been pay to post, it's allowed for more storage space and classified section features, signatures and avatars have been a benefit, there was the community moderation deal, there were people paying fines when they were suspended, there were those who wanted to be able to use the karma system, see the karma system, vote for good guy certificates, forum sponsorships and banner advertisements... volunteer programs for subforums that were rolled over into various membership levels... and different prices associated with the same ranks.

And most of those changes were accompanied by their own round of arguments, temper tantrums, praise, debates and people taking their ball and going home- all for their own individual reasons. Hypothetical User A might have paid into the membership system because he wanted to participate in the member moderator program and then neglected to renew when the benefit was an avatar and classified access. Hypthetical User B could have wanted those classified tools but promoted to renew when given the chance because they wanted to see who left them Karma.

It's just a mess. Too much was changed too often and the durations of memberships often encompassed multiple incarnations where variables were changed, changed back, tweaked, altered again and then left alone.