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Question regarding Leatherbacks and Smoothies.

Miss Tuniwha

Miss Tuniwha

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I want to get some other opinions. I know we have some bigger breeders on here..

I usually see leather backs and smoothies listed separately, but sometimes as the same thing.

I am aware that both have a recessive, and a co dom line. I am also aware that both can make a silkie, also when crossed together you can get a silkie.


So.. What are your opinions/view? Same? Different? And what is your reasoning.


Thanks ^_^
 
as far as i know the only reason that they are considered as seperate "morphs" is that the leatherback line came from a breeder in italy while the smoothie line came from american breeders. The best person to answer this would be ed clark but im pretty certain that is the answer.
 
Smoothies and Italian leatherbacks are separate and different bloodlines/morphs.

Alot of us are trying to keep these bloodlines pure, although some are breeding Smoothies to Leathers to make a smoother leather.
 
is it correct that the smoothie line came out of american breeding while leathers are from overseas
 
There have been a few lines of Smoothies/reduced scales pop up mostly in California.

With the AC line of American Smoothies being front and center, it has been demonstrated that an Italian Leatherback when bred to a AC line smoothie are compatible and will produce a certain percentage of silkies just as breeding 2 Italian Leatherbacks together.

The Smoothies have very different looks and body shape. I certainly dont think these two bloodlines to be one in the same.
 
hey Ed, i got word alittle while back, that some breeders where crossing the two lines (american and Italian) to produce a healthier silkback. when you cross two ita. leathers you produce silkies but sometimes the have birth defects or other problems. some believe crossing the two lines produce healthier silkies, but your crossing the lines and not keeping them pure. what do you think?? should it not be done? should it be done to produce healthier silkies??? should silkies just not be produced? what is your out look on that?
 
dragonluver83 said:
hey Ed, i got word alittle while back, that some breeders where crossing the two lines (american and Italian) to produce a healthier silkback. when you cross two ita. leathers you produce silkies but sometimes the have birth defects or other problems. some believe crossing the two lines produce healthier silkies, but your crossing the lines and not keeping them pure. what do you think?? should it not be done? should it be done to produce healthier silkies??? should silkies just not be produced? what is your out look on that?
Click to expand...

There are problems with the Silkies, some of them are the results of the keepers trying to maintain them in the same way they do all their other dragons...that wont work with small Silkies. they shed differently similar to a leopard gecko, they need it more humid to shed, getting them through their first two sheds has been problematic to many keepers.

Crosses?
My focus is trying to produce the best color that I can in pure Italian leathers and not on making Silkies.

But if someone is just trying to make Silkies crossing into Smoothies or any of the other Leatherback lines to try to strengthen them up may be a way to go as long as the produced offspring are labeled as such.

Before I jumped head first into any Leatherbacks I looked at everything that was out there as far as Leatherbacks were concerned, for me it was the Italians....they blew me away, they are the kings of Leatherbacks.

There is still alot to be done breeding Leatherbacks and Smoothies.
 
A discussion brandi and I had is what prompted this, and I myself am just starting to figure out all of this leathrback smoothie stuff...but my understanding is they are the same trait, same gene, just 2 different names and lines...to put it simply
 
they are not the same gene... one is from over sees, and 1 is the american line. so 2 different lines, 2 different names, because its too different bloodlines. but they are both smoothback animals.
 
rin0425 said:
I myself am just starting to figure out all of this leathrback smoothie stuff...but my understanding is they are the same trait, same gene, just 2 different names and lines...to put it simply
Click to expand...

Aaron, thats a misunderstanding.thats like saying the albino tremper leopard geckos are the same as bell albino leopard geckos and also rainwater albino leopard geckos just because they are all albino leopard geckos.

Italian Leatherbacks are different than Smoothies.
 
how are they different? If its the same gene, same allele, how is that different?
I know they are different lines, but if they were different traits, then when bred together the two wouldnt be compatible. But when they are bred together, you get the smae as if you bred two smoothies or two leatherbacks.
 
im not arguing, im trying to understand. no one has explained how it works, they have just stated their opinion on it. So if someone actually understands the genetics of it, im going by what my friend the geneticist has told me.
 
This is how it has been explained to me by Randy of Alphadragonz...and id love to know eds explanation other than "they are different cause I say so":
Red Italian Leatherback X American Smoothie
When we bought our original Smoothies from Anna at AC Reptiles we could only guess how their genetics worked. Thanks to Anna and Chad we found out last year that this trait is inherited in a Codomiant fashion. Well at the same time half way across the world a man by the name of Alessandro was working with a very similar genetic trait called Leatherbacks. Both of these traits affected the dragons in a similar way. This weekend we found out that both the Smoothie Trait and the Italian Leathrback trait are in fact most likely the same allele located on the same Locus. We accomplished this by Breeding a Red Italian Leatherback to an American Smoothie which resulted in some very healthy and amazing Silkbacks!! More information to come later!!
Click to expand...

This is a quote from Alphadragonz.com

What he has explained to me in a lengthy conversation is this,
The gene for reduced scaling (either LB or AS) is located on 1 chromosome, 1 allele, and 1 locus. This is the same in every dragon around the world...for all pogonia vitticeps.
Even though the ILB line is from different stock, the mutation has occurred on the same locus of the same allele as the AS.
This conclusion came about because of the silkbacks. It is the full expression of the reduced scaling mutation. If it were a different trait in both lines, then they would be incompatible.
This would mean that breeding an ILB with an AS would result in something other than a silkback. Because that breeding produces silkbacks, it therefore means that it is the same gene.

If someone has a different genetic explanation, im open to it, but i have taken many genetics courses as well as talked to both Randy and my Uncle who is a research geneticist with one of the top vaccine producers in the world, and this is the info I have.
 
Seriously ed, why would you give me negative karma for asking you to explain yourself? This is about getting information and I really would like to hear your explaination. No need to be spiteful...its not professional.
 
spyder79 said:
as far as i know the only reason that they are considered as seperate "morphs" is that the leatherback line came from a breeder in italy while the smoothie line came from american breeders. The best person to answer this would be ed clark but im pretty certain that is the answer.
Click to expand...
Hmm. Alessandro produced both I thought and coined the names (I think) then exported to the US to Dachiu. I haven't kept up with them but that was what I remember.

Mooing Tricycle said:
Im pretty sure they are all related anyhow... Wasnt there a thread here about these animals on the BOI?
Click to expand...


Yes, it centered more around the ethical questions regarding smoothies.
Alessandro posted about his lines around post #201, I think.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99285
 
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