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Bad Guy JWI (Joe Imperatori) selling Sri Lankan stars

OK, as far as wanting to purchase another tortoise I asked him this because he told me he could make it up to me by selling me another tortoise for a cheaper price. I wanted to buy several from the beginning, but did not have the money. I thought about it and spoke with several people and realized this would not be a good idea. As far as the tortoise I shipped to cali, yes it died due to my own fault in packing it because I have no experience in packing it and I was told to put a heat pack in the box with it and I put in on the top of the container. I admit to this and learned very dearly from it. Ceylon, the tortoise in question, is alive and well now and here in a pdf format are some of the paperwork which I could find since I recently moved. I will get some full reports from the vet later. It's in a pdf document and if it does not open then someone please email me to tell me the correct way to post it. Oh, I put ceylon in a new enclosure from the one my old tortoise was in and used the "clay cat litter", which Joe told me to use, for a substrate.
 
rosebud945 said:
Well, they are, actually. A Teaching/Research/practicing doctor at one of the most prestigious schools in the country, Baylor, had one run on my mother, and it was positive. She was treated and years of stomach issues were resolved in one month of the right meds.

But you have a point. A student Doctor could go testing crazy. However, Jeremy stated that the tort developed symptoms, didn't he?
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Most doctors will just go ahead and give you the medication if they suspect the bacteria is in your system, since it's cheaper than the test and does no harm if it's not. Just a point I was trying to make, given a recent experience.

Here's a question for the Chelonia folks - is pneumonia something that an animal can come down with without husbandry issues? As in, kept at improper temps? How about a chemical pneumonia from trying to administer meds orally? How are these animals different from other reptiles in that an oral antibiotic would have any immediate effect versus injectable? Isn't injectable pretty much the standard for all reptiles if they're given at all?

I hate when my herp vet is on vacation and I have questions.

I'm not denying the animal might have had anything wrong with it, I just think there are an awful lot of holes in the story. Most people who are ready to take someone to court over a vet bill will at least know what they're going to sue for - what was included in that vet care. This tort has supposedly been to two vets. The first one, the meds prescribed weren't given as they should have been, and then the animal was supposedly treated again by the second vet(s). The first vet didn't catch the other things he claims were wrong, and I'll have to go back and look again to be sure but I don't think the timeframe between the two vet visits was given either. Were actual tests done, or was it based on the vets hunch given any symptoms? I'm just not convinced that all that is somehow Joe's fault. Yes, if he's got parasites in his breeding group that's something he should deal with, but the week-long hospital stay and pneumonia leading to another hospital stay I'm not so sure about. I don't think any breeder worth their salt, as Joe appears to be, would send out an animal that sounds like it was that close to death's door. Reptiles just don't hide illness as well as some other animals do and if something's that wrong they should be showing it from the get-go shouldn't they? I'm very interested in seeing what sort of information comes from the vet.
 
The students would come in and ask what was the problem then report that to the doctor at which point the doctor would come in and speak to me about the problem. They have 4 fulltime vets at the vet clinic who also work at the Baton Rouge, and New Orleans zoo with the animals there. This school is very well known and I have met people who come from Florida with their horses for check ups.
 
Fecal smears and floats were done several times and not just a hunch. The first time I took it to the vet they did a fecal smear and noticed the pinworms. I have a pdf file if someone is willing to help me resize and post it and I will have more info later from the vet to post.
 
Here's a question for the Chelonia folks - is pneumonia something that an animal can come down with without husbandry issues? As in, kept at improper temps? How about a chemical pneumonia from trying to administer meds orally? How are these animals different from other reptiles in that an oral antibiotic would have any immediate effect versus injectable? Isn't injectable pretty much the standard for all reptiles if they're given at all?
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As a long time rehabber, I can answer these questions. Yes, pneumonia can be caused by improper husbandry, by administering meds and causing aspiration, and by the presence of a communicable type bacteria. You can do a culture and find out exactly what type bacteria you are looking at and there are some that tend to be caused by one or another of these possibilities.

Injectible anti B's are preferred unless you have a client that just can't give injections (turtles/torts can be very hard to inject, and the size of the animal plays a factor in whether or not the client can safely do injections.) or unless batril is used. Batril is suspected of causing muscle degeneration when it is administered IM, and yet it is still the preferred drug for RIs, so that can be a big issue. So while injectible/IM is the most preferred method of administering meds, it is certainly not an absolute rule. I have given meds via both methods and had good success with both.
 
So why didn't you take the tortoise to them first, then? Sorry, just trying to sort out what happened when and why, as Sri Lankans are on my list of wants for someday and the list of breeders to choose from is pretty darn small. If Joe truly is a bad guy, I wanna know.
 
I called around and was told to that this vet out in a city near my house was the only local vet to take reptiles too. I took him there and was supposed to go back when I called the vet and told him the problem was getting worse he told me to go to the LSU vet clinic at which point I did and have been with them since then. Can anyone offer any help posting this pdf file because it says that it's too large at 4 MB.
 
rosebud945 said:
As a long time rehabber, I can answer these questions. Yes, pneumonia can be caused by improper husbandry, by administering meds and causing aspiration, and by the presence of a communicable type bacteria. You can do a culture and find out exactly what type bacteria you are looking at and there are some that tend to be caused by one or another of these possibilities.

Injectible anti B's are preferred unless you have a client that just can't give injections (turtles/torts can be very hard to inject, and the size of the animal plays a factor in whether or not the client can safely do injections.) or unless batril is used. Batril is suspected of causing muscle degeneration when it is administered IM, and yet it is still the preferred drug for RIs, so that can be a big issue. So while injectible/IM is the most preferred method of administering meds, it is certainly not an absolute rule. I have given meds via both methods and had good success with both.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but with herps? I think if I remember right, you're a fellow raptor rehabber. Antibiotics affect the systems of reptiles and birds differently because of their metabolic rates. I would not hesitate to give meds orally to a BOP and have done so on many occasions along with sub-q fluids. Never had an issue because they process it fast. But if I understand correctly the metabolism of most reptiles is so slow that giving meds by mouth is painfully slow to be effective if at all. If a tortoise is so ill, why go that route? Baytril is great stuff when used in the right situation, but it's not the only one out there. Just depends on who you ask and how hot for Baytril the particular vet is. Some of them, they hand that stuff out for everything. I'd rather be on the safe side and shell out the extra bucks for the sensitivity culture and go from there.
Click to expand...
 
Shadera, yes, I have used oral anti Bs on lizards, and they were effective. I have also had to switch to injectible when the oral route was not working, so I have treated using both methods on herps. I cured a chuckwalla of a systemic infection using an initial injection of batril followed by 20 days of oral batril, and treated a mouth rot issue in a beardie with oral because the vet and I felt that using a sulpha drug could work topically as well as systemically, and it did. Oral can be tried, and can work, but sometimes injectible is preferred and necessary. I think it depends on the particular illness that you are dealing with.
 
Thank you for letting me pick your brain, Donna. :thumbsup:

I'm not sure how'd you'd post pdfs here, Jeremy. Hopefully someone can step in and help you figure out how to get that stuff posted. Beyond screenshots and copy and paste, I'm pretty much no help there.
 
Let me add that when full blown pneumonia is present, I don't like to give anything orally, not even food. I use injectible drugs and tube feed to avoid adding any more mucus or moisture to the area that can compound the problem.

But there is an issue with batril and muscle tissue. I was warned about this by one of the best exotics vets on the planet, Joe Flanagan, who did necropsies on animals that were injected with Batril. I still use it in injectible form, but I cringe every time I have to. Joe insists that batril can effectively be given orally even to herps in most cases. ;)
 
1) Why does it say leopard tortoise under breed on the vet report?
2) I've read quite a bit about star tortoises, and am under the impression that stars can be very touchy when it comes to diseases or parasites. I've read that stars shouldn't be kept in contact with other tortoise species due to the possibility of disease or parasite spread. Any thoughts? Is two weeks enough time for a parasite load to develop in a young star tortoise?
 
i asked the vet the same thing why they had lepoard tortoise on there. If i could post the other pages, which keep telling me the firles are too big, they say Sri lanka star on them.
 
On the issue in the first doc regarding the misidentified species name, that could be the tech's error. This second doc does indicate that the tortoise was treated for what Jeremy claimed it was.

So I guess the question now is where and when did the tortoise pick up these infections?
 
The tortoise had been feeding on mixed greens of lettuce, turnip greens, Rep cal tortoise diet, which Joe told me to feed him. Ceylon was in a 40 gallon aquarium, brand new, with a mercury vapor lamp placed above the enclosure where the hotspot would get to around 90F and the cool end around 75F. At night the light goes off at 11pm and then an under the tank heating pad comes on under his hide spot and that is where he/she sleeps at night. Ceylon has since been feeding on opuntia cactus, italian blend mix, RepCal tortoise diet, and a bag of mixed grasses which I got from Carolina pet supply. Ceylon seems to be doing fine, but is staying at a weight of 70 grams for over a month now and she was born in December. She is about 2 1/2 inches.
Don't get me wrong folks. I think Joe is an honest business man. I just think he handled this situation in the incorrect manner. He has some beautiful animals and completed our transaction very smoothly. I'm just upset that he took it personal that I would even bring the animal to the vet . I only asked if he would share half of the vet bills with me, but he only offered to sell me another tortoise at a discounted price which is why I asked for another one later , but was advised against that.
 
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