Bad Guy VMSherp, Monica and Sean Niland

[PSReptiles]

Damn - messed up the quote tags. The second paragraph should look like this:


If your grammar (syntax, and punctuation) is correct <cough, laugh> it would seem that you are saying that you can get several dozen pet shops to come here...but your preceding statement is that these people don't sell to pet shops. What are you really trying to say?

+1


Thanks, THAT is my whole point on the issue and no one can seem to get that through their thick skulls.

YES, I was offered a refund for the whole group and I turned it down for my own reason, I am not complaining about this...BUT it is highly irresponsible not to mark you animals you are trying to sell with deformities on your website!

Chelsea

 

[ForkedTung]

The offer to have the animals returned for a full refund is acceptable. Selling deformed animals in the first place and then trying to justify doing so, regardless of genetic inheritance or not, especially without informing the customer is not acceptable. IMHO

 

[PSReptiles]

The offer to have the animals returned for a full refund is acceptable. Selling deformed animals in the first place and then trying to justify doing so, regardless of genetic inheritance or not, especially without informing the customer is not acceptable. IMHO

+1 this is what I am trying to say (also IMO)


Chelsea

 

[Southern Wolf]

If you do visit there webpage though and read a lot about them, they didn't even sell to individuals a while back, but to the pet shops themselves for making a profit. Otherwise why not sell to individuals? I personally wouldn't send my geckos off to the pet stores to die, where most of them do.

I have been buying from Sean and VMS for several years now.. and Im just a small time breeder... so Im not sure where you are coming up with this. He started just like all the rest of us. Working a full time job and trying to get his reptile biz off the ground. Why not sell to anyone that wanted your animals. Thats like

Go to other sites of other breeders...they have them marked right next to the photo most of the time(or at least around the photo). Whether or not if they are in fact genetic, people should be TOLD and have the right to know what they are buying is in fact not perfect. The refund isn't the issue here either. I was told that had they KNOWN the bell albino was so deformed they wouldn't have sold her. Does this mean if I send the lot of them back they will humanely kill her? Who knows, but she functions well enough (if not able to breed) and I wouldn't want to take away her second chance at life just because she IS deformed. I am not happy she was sold to me without my knowledge of the issue, but I am not going to not take EXCELLENT care of her.

Chelsea

Sean offered you a full and total refund... and you turned it down. All you had to do was send them back to him. We are all human... mistakes happen.... and we dont catch everything, but he tried to make it right. You wouldnt let him.

The above that I put in bold should tell you that they do try to control the quality of their animals... and if they would have seen it... they wouldnt have put it up for sale. Just like the rest of us that value our name and reputation.

As a breeder.... the more animals we get... the less time we get to spend on each and every animal daily. Case in point... lets say you only have 6 animals. You can take them out daily and play with all 6 for 15mins or so each a day. When you get large enough that you can turn your passion into a full time job and support yourself... there is no longer any play time. You get to see each and every animal a few times a week while feeding and preforming cage maintenance. Its just the nature of things. Does this mean we love our animals any less than someone with 6 animals. NO it doesnt.

With this being the case.... sometimes mistakes are missed. What sets us appart is how we handle these mistakes. Sean tried to make it right with you by offering a full and total refund. You declined.

Do you think he should have offered the refund AND let you keep the geckos? I dont think so.

 

[FallenAngel]

There really shouldn't be anymore arguments on this, it's very simple. The thread was not created to discuss whether or not the problem was handled incorrectly, the only point of focus is the problem itself. The pictures don't depict anything wrong with the geckos, and neither do the descriptions. ANY person looking to buy a leopard gecko, or any reptile for that matter, expects to receive an animal that does not have any visible or known issues that set them apart from the norm. Tail kinks, whether they be genetic or from problems with incubation, are NOT normal. Head deformities are NOT normal. For those that have been customers of theirs for several years and have not had any issues, that's great. That doesn't mean that the problem discussed here (again, not how they deal with what happened but the fact that it happened or is happening) is null and void.

 

[FallenAngel]

Also if you read completely, they purchased a lot of 6 animals, some of which had no problems what-so-ever. Why would she want to return the entire lot? Why wasn't the option of just returning the animals with problems offered? I thought that was odd; but again, how they handled the situation isn't the purpose of this thread. Sure, when it comes to customer service, they did what most breeders would do. The question is, what will be done about the fact that the animals are not clearly represented?

 

[PSReptiles]

I have been buying from Sean and VMS for several years now.. and Im just a small time breeder... so Im not sure where you are coming up with this. He started just like all the rest of us. Working a full time job and trying to get his reptile biz off the ground. Why not sell to anyone that wanted your animals. Thats like




Sean offered you a full and total refund... and you turned it down. All you had to do was send them back to him. We are all human... mistakes happen.... and we dont catch everything, but he tried to make it right. You wouldnt let him.

The above that I put in bold should tell you that they do try to control the quality of their animals... and if they would have seen it... they wouldnt have put it up for sale. Just like the rest of us that value our name and reputation.

As a breeder.... the more animals we get... the less time we get to spend on each and every animal daily. Case in point... lets say you only have 6 animals. You can take them out daily and play with all 6 for 15mins or so each a day. When you get large enough that you can turn your passion into a full time job and support yourself... there is no longer any play time. You get to see each and every animal a few times a week while feeding and preforming cage maintenance. Its just the nature of things. Does this mean we love our animals any less than someone with 6 animals. NO it doesnt.

With this being the case.... sometimes mistakes are missed. What sets us appart is how we handle these mistakes. Sean tried to make it right with you by offering a full and total refund. You declined.

Do you think he should have offered the refund AND let you keep the geckos? I dont think so.

Again I did not state that I am unhappy with his offer to refund the geckos. If you read all my like...last 6 posts you would see that. I am not out for all my money back/more money and getting to keep the animals he sold me. I am not that greedy or insane.

I would just like to SEE that they MARK the animals on their site with these deformities and make sure other people consider getting more photos or ASKING them "hey is that animal deformed?" if you are going to consider buying from them.

How I got four out of six geckos with deformities is crazy...either I am just very "lucky" or they have done this a lot and maybe even most of their animals are deformed now. No one can be certain unless they actually be responsible and MARK the animals issues down before trying to pass them off/sell them as being perfect.

Chelsea

 

[Southern Wolf]

Yes, I am not complaining about the refund.

I am just letting people know that maybe they tend to over look things a little bit more than some other breeders might so you may want to ask for more pictures/about the animal you and interested in instead of just trusting the photos they have on their site.
I still don't really know how you can over look the -head- issue when you have to TAKE the animals photo for the site, but maybe I am just more observant myself when it comes to things like that.

For one... how do you know they tend to overlook things a little bit more than others? You've had one order with them. I have had 3... all have been perfect... and were actually nicer than the photos showed them to be.

Im actually in the process of narrowing down my geckos... but the trio of Tremper Sunglows I got from Sean and VMS will always be with us. Their orange colors are simply amazing.

As to "you may want to ask for more pictures".... Count yourself lucky... many large breeders do not take individual photos of their animals for sale... its very time consuming. You dont believe me.. ask Rich (webslave). Earlier this year I bought around 16 snakes from him. Do you think I got to choose the animals I wanted. NO. Would I buy from him again... you betcha.

Just something to think about.

 

[PSReptiles]

Also if you read completely, they purchased a lot of 6 animals, some of which had no problems what-so-ever. Why would she want to return the entire lot? Why wasn't the option of just returning the animals with problems offered? I thought that was odd; but again, how they handled the situation isn't the purpose of this thread. Sure, when it comes to customer service, they did what most breeders would do. The question is, what will be done about the fact that the animals are not clearly represented?

That is my point! But again no one is getting that part of this problem or reading my posts saying I am not COMPLAINING about how they handled the refund ect ect. It's the way they are selling their animals declaring they are all perfect is THE PROBLEM.

This should just be done and over with, this was more or less to inform people to -buy with caution- from them and make SURE they know what they are getting(ask for other photos or ask about deformities).

Chelsea

 

[pamelacan]

Who is the real Bad Guy here?

Here is a brief synopsis of this unfortunate thread: 1 unhappy customer (or is it two?) complained to VMS. Monica, of VMS, attempts to remedy the situation using language that most business people would use out of respect for their customer, and is then accused of being a disreputable breeder. Sean, of VMS takes up the torch and attempts to explain, offers to refund the entire shipment if returned, and is then accused of mass producing deformed geckos. In subsequent posts, VMS is accused of running a herp mill, not caring about their animals, and intentionally breeding genetically flawed animals. The customer then posts that she is afraid of producing "god knows what" if she were to breed the animals she received from VMS and then announces "they used to sell to pet shops" as if that is a crime, and after declining to send the shipment back, she finishes with this final martyr's flourish: "If I send it back it may be humanely killed so I'm not going to not give it excellent care."

Who is the real bad guy here??? We've had customers purchase animals from us who have falsified stories of how their new animal died so we would replace it or refund their money--which we did, even though we knew the truth. Customer claims can be unfounded. Pictures can be photoshopped. Accidents can happen when taking an animal out of the shipping package, and mistakes can happen. Reputable breeders will act in good faith regardless. Just like VMS did. Seems to me that Chelsea's claim that VMS belongs on anyone's bad guy list is unwarranted and wholly inappropriate and, if it weren't for the intentional hurtfulness, comical.

 

[PSReptiles]

For one... how do you know they tend to overlook things a little bit more than others? You've had one order with them. I have had 3... all have been perfect... and were actually nicer than the photos showed them to be.

Im actually in the process of narrowing down my geckos... but the trio of Tremper Sunglows I got from Sean and VMS will always be with us. Their orange colors are simply amazing.

As to "you may want to ask for more pictures".... Count yourself lucky... many large breeders do not take individual photos of their animals for sale... its very time consuming. You dont believe me.. ask Rich (webslave). Earlier this year I bought around 16 snakes from him. Do you think I got to choose the animals I wanted. NO. Would I buy from him again... you betcha.

Just something to think about.

I said no one knows if they ARE or AREN'T over looking things, but marking animals as deformed on their page certainly would help their case with that I would think.

I also said if you can't get photos you could ASK if they are deformed. If they are indeed honest and caring people they would let you know I am sure.

The whole point being, they need to mark their animals as NOT perfect when they really are NOT PERFECT.

Chelsea

 

[Southern Wolf]

Really? Then why do they state on their website that "we focused on producing quality reptiles at reasonable prices for wholesale distribution to pet retailers. We sold only to legitimate licensed dealers; we did not sell our animals to individuals. This single-minded approach allowed us to concentrate on volume production of many species while protecting the pet retailers' business as well."

Amazing how people are registering just to comment on this thread...

If your gonna quote something from their website.. .then maybe... just maybe... you should quit being like the local papers and printing only what you fell would be in YOUR best interest.

We've been involved in herpetoculture and the pet industry since 1977. In 1990, we focused on producing quality reptiles at reasonable prices for wholesale distribution to pet retailers. We sold only to legitimate licensed dealers; we did not sell our animals to individuals. This single-minded approach allowed us to concentrate on volume production of many species while protecting the pet retailers' business as well.

While this concept worked well initially, we began to discover that few retailers could provide accurate care information to the customer. Indeed, many seemed unable to care for our animals properly themselves. As a result, we have begun offering our animals directly to retail customers as well. Retail customers can enjoy receiving the same quality animals we are known for, as well as getting first pick on 'special' animals. Additionally, retail customers receive the full benefit of our skills and knowledge to ensure their success with the reptile of choice.

IF all they cared about was the money... then they would have just stuck to selling to the dealers. Instead... they proved they care more about the animals and got away from the dealers and focused more on the individual customers.

 

[Sue Henson]

I think that what some of us are wondering is, if the issue is kinking and they did try to rectify the problem to the best of their ability, how is one bad transaction out of many a cause to mark them "BAD GUY." Perhaps an inquiry of whether this is a frequent occurrence (which so far, no one other than yourself has stepped forward with) would have been more suitable?

I manage a pet store myself. I work closely with my store veterinarian(who was my personal vet before I brought her into my store) and we deal with animals on a daily basis. I am ashamed to admit that when we deal with the volume and customer service that we do, the occasional oversight has and can occur, on all of our parts. It by no means is my intention or my team's intention, but mistakes DO happen. The question is, how do we fix it?

Perhaps the reason VMS's customers are coming forth and bringing up things like "been in business longer than..." etc, is because they care for the dealer. The vendor in question does not normally slip like this, the vendor did an honorable thing by offering a refund. Why not take a refund, and replace 4 questionable geckos and 2 good geckos with 6 good geckos? In the best case scenario they would hand pick 6 of the finest they have to offer that that price point.

It would be interesting to hear from VMS at this point to see if maybe they'll advertise tail kinking separately, or to hear their take on the entire situation. POssibly rather than tag Bad Guy you can come to a reasonable solution that all parties and future clients would be happy with.

 

[PSReptiles]

Here is a brief synopsis of this unfortunate thread: 1 unhappy customer (or is it two?) complained to VMS. Monica, of VMS, attempts to remedy the situation using language that most business people would use out of respect for their customer, and is then accused of being a disreputable breeder. Sean, of VMS takes up the torch and attempts to explain, offers to refund the entire shipment if returned, and is then accused of mass producing deformed geckos. In subsequent posts, VMS is accused of running a herp mill, not caring about their animals, and intentionally breeding genetically flawed animals. The customer then posts that she is afraid of producing "god knows what" if she were to breed the animals she received from VMS and then announces "they used to sell to pet shops" as if that is a crime, and after declining to send the shipment back, she finishes with this final martyr's flourish: "If I send it back it may be humanely killed so I'm not going to not give it excellent care."

Who is the real bad guy here??? We've had customers purchase animals from us who have falsified stories of how their new animal died so we would replace it or refund their money--which we did, even though we knew the truth. Customer claims can be unfounded. Pictures can be photoshopped. Accidents can happen when taking an animal out of the shipping package, and mistakes can happen. Reputable breeders will act in good faith regardless. Just like VMS did. Seems to me that Chelsea's claim that VMS belongs on anyone's bad guy list is unwarranted and wholly inappropriate and, if it weren't for the intentional hurtfulness, comical.

Why would you think all of this is not the truth? You think I photo shopped my photos and that my story isn't entirely real?

I can't tell you how wrong you are...those are real pictures and I feel that getting four geckos with deformities out of six is utterly ridiculous. Say what you want about it, but this is how it happened and I have my opinion on how they should sell their animals if when you plan on getting perfect ones and then when they arrive -that- many are deformed.

Chelsea

 

[Southern Wolf]

+1 Thank you, if people would do some research before opening their mouth it would be nice.

Chelsea

I would imagine they were death traps because on the website the reason they switched over to selling to more individuals over time was because...

"While this concept worked well initially, we began to discover that few retailers could provide accurate care information to the customer. Indeed, many seemed unable to care for our animals properly themselves."

No why you would send them to a pet store like that I don't know, it doesn't sound like it was a good pet store to me. *shrug* But again this is mainly just about their need to be responsible and mark their animals with the deformities. If they do that, I wouldn't say anything else about them, even though I might not agree with a lot they seem to actually be doing.

Chelsea

ya might want to heed your own advice.

From my experience.... unless it is a family owned mom and pop store... you will not be selling directly to pet stores. Most of.. if not all.. of the larger stores buy their animals from wholesalers and not the small time breeders.

So here's what happens... you produce your aminals.. then sell them to a wholesaler at a reduced rate... the wholesaler then turns around and sells your animals to the pet stores at a profit.. then you buy from the pet store at a inflated rate. The breeder in this scenerio has NO say on which pet stores the animals get sold.

So unless Sean specifically states "I got tired of selling my animals DIRECTLY to crappy pet stores"... the all you have is an assumption... and we all know what that leads to.

 

[Tony C]

If your gonna quote something from their website.. .then maybe... just maybe... you should quit being like the local papers and printing only what you fell would be in YOUR best interest.

Spin it however you want, they admitted in their email correspondence that they "have never felt tail tip kinks to be a significant issue and do not ordinarily warranty for this." I simply expect a breeder to hold themselves to a higher standard than that or they will not get my business. I was considering the purchase of several of their animals, but will not buy from them now thanks to this thread. If your standards are low enough to accept such practices, then by all means buy from them, that's on you.

 

[PSReptiles]

I think that what some of us are wondering is, if the issue is kinking and they did try to rectify the problem to the best of their ability, how is one bad transaction out of many a cause to mark them "BAD GUY." Perhaps an inquiry of whether this is a frequent occurrence (which so far, no one other than yourself has stepped forward with) would have been more suitable?

I manage a pet store myself. I work closely with my store veterinarian(who was my personal vet before I brought her into my store) and we deal with animals on a daily basis. I am ashamed to admit that when we deal with the volume and customer service that we do, the occasional oversight has and can occur, on all of our parts. It by no means is my intention or my team's intention, but mistakes DO happen. The question is, how do we fix it?

Perhaps the reason VMS's customers are coming forth and bringing up things like "been in business longer than..." etc, is because they care for the dealer. The vendor in question does not normally slip like this, the vendor did an honorable thing by offering a refund. Why not take a refund, and replace 4 questionable geckos and 2 good geckos with 6 good geckos? In the best case scenario they would hand pick 6 of the finest they have to offer that that price point.

It would be interesting to hear from VMS at this point to see if maybe they'll advertise tail kinking separately, or to hear their take on the entire situation. POssibly rather than tag Bad Guy you can come to a reasonable solution that all parties and future clients would be happy with.

Well yes I can agree with that, I have already come to see that the "Bad Guy" title means something different from what I had imagined, I figured any opinion that was negative or gripe would go under that catagory.

I can say that it probably doesn't belong under THAT title, but I can't change it now that I have posted it.


Chelsea

 

[Southern Wolf]

That is one of my points regarding the way they irresponsibly breed, they can not say they have proved tail kinks to not be genetic as it has never really been shown to go either way in leopard geckos.

So what kind of proof do you need?

per your post

Regarding tail kinks, they simply are NOT genetic, but are instead a developmental anomaly. We've come to this conclusion for the following reasons after breeding them for three decades in great numbers.

1) Years ago, I deliberately set up groups of kinked ones as a test and they did not produce kinks. Pretty much ruled it out right there.

They deliberately set up a group of kinked leos to see if it was genetic.. .and they didnt have any kinked babies. This would be similar to and experiment that a Scientist would do to prove or disprove.

Once again... they set up an experiment to prove or disprove this theory... and their kinked leos didnt have kinked babies.

So what kind of proof do you need?

 

[PSReptiles]

ya might want to heed your own advice.

From my experience.... unless it is a family owned mom and pop store... you will not be selling directly to pet stores. Most of.. if not all.. of the larger stores buy their animals from wholesalers and not the small time breeders.

So here's what happens... you produce your aminals.. then sell them to a wholesaler at a reduced rate... the wholesaler then turns around and sells your animals to the pet stores at a profit.. then you buy from the pet store at a inflated rate. The breeder in this scenerio has NO say on which pet stores the animals get sold.

So unless Sean specifically states "I got tired of selling my animals DIRECTLY to crappy pet stores"... the all you have is an assumption... and we all know what that leads to.

Well, nearly every pet store I have ever heard of selling animals are not very good in caring for them. *shrug*

I didn't exactly know how it -all- works, but if that is -indeed- the way it goes then I have learned something and wont say whether or not them shipping them off to pet stores is good/bad, ect. I myself just don't feel I would sell my reptiles to pet stores, but that's me then.

Chelsea

 

[Southern Wolf]

they can not say they have proved tail kinks to not be genetic as it has never really been shown to go either way in leopard geckos.

So which is it. Above you state that kinked tails has never really be shown to go either way in leopard geckos (gentic vs. incubation abnomoly)

but in your email to Sean you state

I would say this is kind of stretching saying they are high quality as now we will not be able to breed these females or it is at least NOT recommend because it's likely genetic and will cause major and perhaps painful deformities in the offspring. This was our whole point in purchasing these otherwise stunning females. We wanted a breeding colony and now...more than half of what we purchased can not be bred.

Once again... which is it. You say to the breeder that its genetic and you cant breed the animals... but on here you say it can go either way?

maybe Im wrong here... but seems to me you were hoping to get alot more from the breeder by playing the "I cant breed them now" card. Once again... he tried to make it right by offering a full refund for return of the animals... you refused.