Bad Guy VMSherp, Monica and Sean Niland

[Southern Wolf]

I can understand this might be true with wholesale, but personally, I better be damn sure what i'm buying over the internet before I go ahead and pay for it.

I don't know how it is with snakes, but I know most people that buy high-end leopard geckos online ALWAYS get photos before they buy.

Then you wont be buying from alot of Reputable breeders. Rich dont have individual photos on his site. Don S from South Mountain dont have individual photos on his site... along with alot of other large breeders. Im not even sure alot of the larger Ball Python breeders have individual photos. I promise you Ball Pythons are more expensive than your leos.

 

[PSReptiles]

Is anything us breeders do really scientific? NO... we dont have labs... we have reptile rooms... and proven genetics theories to work off of.

The per your logic... your part of the problem.. cause you shouldnt be posting in this thread... As you say "Its not about anyone ELSE's experience with them"... so your posting why?

I feel that it is about how VMS handled the situation. If your gonna start a bad guy thread then you need to look at all aspects.... not just the original complaint.

How many bad guy threads have turned out to be false after further digging.

You need to stop repeating youself and get the main point out of this thread through your head.

Chelsea

 

[PSReptiles]

Then you wont be buying from alot of Reputable breeders. Rich dont have individual photos on his site. Don S from South Mountain dont have individual photos on his site... along with alot of other large breeders. Im not even sure alot of the larger Ball Python breeders have individual photos. I promise you Ball Pythons are more expensive than your leos.

What does price have to do with anything here? I also known MANY good breeders have photos as well they SHOULD. It's up to you who you want to buy from though.

chelsea

 

[Southern Wolf]

+1

I will buy frogs without pics from a trusted breeder because there is usually little individual variation, but I would never buy a snake or lizard without them.

Then you wont be buying from Rich either... and thats a shame. He is a pioneer of alot of mophs and some excellent snakes.

 

[PSReptiles]

Then you wont be buying from Rich either... and thats a shame. He is a pioneer of alot of mophs and some excellent snakes.

Okaaay, no one cares who or who we wont be buying from that isn't VMSherp. You need to stay on topic with this thread and stop attacking everyone who has something to say.

Chelsea

 

[Southern Wolf]

This is turning into a pointless argument between you and me. I said you can continue to go back and read posts you -should- have before you randomly started commenting, but the point doesn't change. It is entirely my opinion.


Chelsea

I have read EVERY post... its just that I am playing catch up with my responses.

 

[PSReptiles]

I have read EVERY post... its just that I am playing catch up with my responses.

The main point does not change. I do want to say though, since you want to go off topic and talk about photos and how most people don't provide them.....WHY then do you take the time to put photos of the individual animals you are trying to sell up on your website? Just a thought...

chelsea

 

[Southern Wolf]

I have known reptiles and breeding them since I was sixteen. It hasn't been years for me like some, but I think I know enough now to have my say so in things regarding reptiles and genetics. (I breed and sell ball pythons myself, planning to eventually get a website going ect ect)

Okay, yes, say I have a new morph, honestly no I wouldn't say I had it even after that. I would go through a few times of breeding and not just once...maybe sell a couple offspring to a couple well respected breeders who can also have their say so in whether or not it was genetic when THEY breed it out to their animals.

What they did proves nothing and as is Maia stated, not very "scientific." Why you are bringing this all up again out of no where is beyond me...you like to keep going back and arguing a bunch of different things not even relevant don't you?

Chelsea

Actually it is revelant. You questioned the validity of their experiments to prove or disprove tail kinks as genetic. Its no different than trying to prove or disprove a new morph.

Just because only one person has done it doesnt make it any less true. Does the work that Dr. Bryan Fry does with venom research make it any less true because he is the only one doing it?

As to what you call arguing.. Im just pointing out holes in your theories.

 

[PSReptiles]

Actually it is revelant. You questioned the validity of their experiments to prove or disprove tail kinks as genetic. Its no different than trying to prove or disprove a new morph.

Just because only one person has done it doesnt make it any less true. Does the work that Dr. Bryan Fry does with venom research make it any less true because he is the only one doing it?

As to what you call arguing.. Im just pointing out holes in your theories.

We are talking about genetics, not venomous snakes and research done with them. If they have supposedly proved this as well how come no one else is adopting the fact that it's NOT genetic? Why are other breeders/vets still saying it is uncertain? You can stick up for them over and over, but my opinions will not change.

Chelsea

 

[Southern Wolf]

What does price have to do with anything here? I also known MANY good breeders have photos as well they SHOULD. It's up to you who you want to buy from though.

chelsea

Price is revelant to the person I quoted. They stated that they would buy a low end animal without photo listed on the website... but not their high end leos. People buy animals all the time without photos on the website based on who they are buying them from. I bought everyone of my snakes from Rich site unseen... because of who he is.... and the reputation he has made for himself and proven over time. If you contact BHB and tell him you want photos of all his $5000 Ball morphs... do you honestly think he has the time to go photograph everything.

This is where price came into play. The person I quoted brought it up.

 

[Southern Wolf]

The main point does not change. I do want to say though, since you want to go off topic and talk about photos and how most people don't provide them.....WHY then do you take the time to put photos of the individual animals you are trying to sell up on your website? Just a thought...

chelsea

First... because Im a small breeder... therefore I have the time and also because I prefer to purchase individual animals.. and thus the way I laid out my website and because Im also big into photography.

Keyword being prefer.... I have bought some high end animals sight unseen from reputable breeders.

 

[PSReptiles]

Price is revelant to the person I quoted. They stated that they would buy a low end animal without photo listed on the website... but not their high end leos. People buy animals all the time without photos on the website based on who they are buying them from. I bought everyone of my snakes from Rich site unseen... because of who he is.... and the reputation he has made for himself and proven over time. If you contact BHB and tell him you want photos of all his $5000 Ball morphs... do you honestly think he has the time to go photograph everything.

This is where price came into play. The person I quoted brought it up.

Price of ball pythons are -not- RELEVANT here...and your second sentence doesn't make much sense compared to what was actually said. Also did I SAY you HAD to get photos...did I not say you could ASK about an animal before you buy it. Did I SAY that someone would give you photos for about 100 animals? NO.

This is now utterly pointless for you to be continuously commenting on and you can go on pointing out w/e you think is right, but sadly it's just funny.

 

[PSReptiles]

Price of ball pythons are -not- RELEVANT here...and your second sentence doesn't make much sense compared to what was actually said. Also did I SAY you HAD to get photos...did I not say you could ASK about an animal before you buy it. Did I SAY that someone would give you photos for about 100 animals? NO.

This is now utterly pointless for you to be continuously commenting on and you can go on pointing out w/e you think is right, but sadly it's just funny.

written by, me, Chelsea(oviously)

 

[PSReptiles]

First... because Im a small breeder... therefore I have the time and also because I prefer to purchase individual animals.. and thus the way I laid out my website and because Im also big into photography.

Keyword being prefer.... I have bought some high end animals sight unseen from reputable breeders.

and that is ur choice, not mine and maybe not the choice of other customers who had the right to know the photos of VMSherp were not accurate marked. Thank you.

chelsea

 

[Southern Wolf]

Okaaay, no one cares who or who we wont be buying from that isn't VMSherp. You need to stay on topic with this thread and stop attacking everyone who has something to say.

Chelsea

Attacking... no

Responding to posts that were made on an open fourm... yes

As for who we will or wont buy from... I am responding to what others have said. This is a forum with two way communications afterall. The point I am trying to make.. .which some have failed to grasp is this.

The owner of this site... is the same owner of SerpenCo... and he has been producing quality animals much longer than I have been keeping them (I started in '91). He doesnt have individual photos on his site. There have been a few that stated they wont buy without individual photos. Which tells me you would be missing out on some great quality animals.

 

[Willow]

I really dont want to help this argument along....but...

i think compairing proving out a new morph....to proving out defomities...is no where near the same thing...weather a deformity is considered or even "proven" to be genetic...it isnt something i wish to have in my breeding stock...i want my breeders to be the best, healthiest, pick of the litter kind of animals

i persoanlly would not want a deformed ball python (i say bp because thats what i have, not leos) in my breeding stock...i would simply keep a deformed animal as a pet...so if i bought an animal from a breeder with the intent to add it to my breeding stock...i would be very disappointed to get the animal and realize it would have no use to me in my projects....tho i would most likely still wish to keep the animal, as a moral respect towards knowing it would be well taken care of for the rest of its life as a loved pet

So i understand where Chelsea is coming from...she has said she dosnt expect anything else in regards to the animals...she simply wanted to tell people of her experiance and her disappointment with how these animals where represented before she got them

Im sure had she known about the problems before she bought them...she would have chosen different animals...but now that they are in her care....she feels the compassion to care for them instead of sending them back for replacements or refunds. They are not trash to be disregarded now that she has them in her care....it seems she simply wishes that VMS better represents the animals they are selling so situations like this dont happen again to other people

 

[PSReptiles]

I really dont want to help this argument along....but...

i think compairing proving out a new morph....to proving out defomities...is no where near the same thing...weather a deformity is considered or even "proven" to be genetic...it isnt something i wish to have in my breeding stock...i want my breeders to be the best, healthiest, pick of the litter kind of animals

i persoanlly would not want a deformed ball python (i say bp because thats what i have, not leos) in my breeding stock...i would simply keep a deformed animal as a pet...so if i bought an animal from a breeder with the intent to add it to my breeding stock...i would be very disappointed to get the animal and realize it would have no use to me in my projects....tho i would most likely still wish to keep the animal, as a moral respect towards knowing it would be well taken care of for the rest of its life as a loved pet

So i understand where Chelsea is coming from...she has said she dosnt expect anything else in regards to the animals...she simply wanted to tell people of her experiance and her disappointment with how these animals where represented before she got them

Im sure had she known about the problems before she bought them...she would have chosen different animals...but now that they are in her care....she feels the compassion to care for them instead of sending them back for replacements or refunds. They are not trash to be disregarded now that she has them in her care....it seems she simply wishes that VMS better represents the animals they are selling so situations like this dont happen again to other people

+1

Thanks,

again I couldn't have said it better myself as this is what I am trying to get across, and if my e-mail would be read it is VERY clear I am not after more money or anything like that for these animals concerning the refund ect ect.

I do not want to give up one major deformed gecko(as well as the rest) when they will now have a good home here regardless. They are not something I am going to just "trade/throw away" like inanimate objects. They are now a part of my family here. I don't know what would become of Mara (the head deformed gecko) if I sent her back either, which would be horrible because I love my animals.

Chelsea

 

[FallenAngel]

Then you wont be buying from alot of Reputable breeders. Rich dont have individual photos on his site. Don S from South Mountain dont have individual photos on his site... along with alot of other large breeders. Im not even sure alot of the larger Ball Python breeders have individual photos. I promise you Ball Pythons are more expensive than your leos.

I'm sorry but this is just getting ridiculous. Just because you can argue something doesn't mean that it makes it relevant or worth while. Listen to what you're saying, you're actually trying to argue that a customer should be happy that they get oroginal photos at all, nevermind the fact that the photos don't represent the animal completely. What about all of the leopard gecko websites that DO show individual animals?? You've gotten to the point of just arguing for the sake of arguing.. let it go already.

 

[PSReptiles]

I'm sorry but this is just getting ridiculous. Just because you can argue something doesn't mean that it makes it relevant or worth while. Listen to what you're saying, you're actually trying to argue that a customer should be happy that they get oroginal photos at all, nevermind the fact that the photos don't represent the animal completely. What about all of the leopard gecko websites that DO show individual animals?? You've gotten to the point of just arguing for the sake of arguing.. let it go already.

Thanks a lot, I myself couldn't agree more and I too am just done answering to these senseless comments because someone else is unhappy with what I am saying IMO and thought other's should know before purchasing.

Chelsea

 

[Southern Wolf]

I really dont want to help this argument along....but...

I'm sorry but this is just getting ridiculous. Just because you can argue something doesn't mean that it makes it relevant or worth while. Listen to what you're saying, you're actually trying to argue that a customer should be happy that they get oroginal photos at all, nevermind the fact that the photos don't represent the animal completely. What about all of the leopard gecko websites that DO show individual animals?? You've gotten to the point of just arguing for the sake of arguing.. let it go already.

No arguments Willow... just responding to what others have posted.

FallenAngel.... it must have been relevant to someone, because all I have been doing is responding to what others have typed.

As to the leopard gecko websites... I will conceed that fact. Im not huge in the leo world (Ive narrowed down my breeding stock from 60+ down to around 8) so I can honestly say I havent been to all the large leo breeders sites. I am basing my facts off of snake breeders since VMS probably produces more snakes than leos (speculation on my part since I dont know the actual numbers.... just the amount of species they produce)

If you will take a moment to think about everything I have said... it will make some sense....even if you dont agree with me.... I do have some valid points.

One last question or just something to think about... The leo that has the kinked tail. What happens if for whatever reason it decides to drop its tail and then you get a regenerated tail. Is it now even less perfect because it has a regen?