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WTH Rich!

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Yes, I did. He was releasing snakes that are native to the area. F&W was notified, they contacted him, wanted to make sure they weren't "obviously unhealthy" and that was that. :shrug01:

I understand the concern about releasing nonnative animals. Their is absolutely no argument anyone could make in defense of that. I would be more up in arms about that then a native species. As I said, I don't agree with what he did...But I'm not going to sit here and fight about it. I don't agree with a lot of things people do in regards to kinks, non-feeders, etc...But I'm not going to crucify someone for a differing opinion.

I'm also not harping on anyone confronting Rich. They (we all) had a right to. He explained his side of things, F&W was involved and didn't have any real concerns...So why go on and on about it? What do you want to happen about it?

Its been said in here numerous times.... He was an industry leading snake producer who condones and PRACTICES releasing snakes in the wild. I want the people who are trying to shut us (hobbyist, full time breeders) down to know we dont condone this behavior and it is not an industry standard to do it.
 
Sorry fella, but I have absolutely no reason to extend the courtesy of use of my website to someone who blatantly calls me a liar. Take a hike, bub...

These same questions are asked daily in the BOI. show proof etc...etc.. so why is it that he is banned for asking "you" to show proof of something just everyone else is asked to? people on here are called liars,scammers and so forth everyday and they have to show proof to clear themselfs, but since you're the owner of fauna.. that rule doesn't apply for you? everyone has to defend themself and show proof to the linch mob on here or get dragged through the mud. but since you're the owner you avoid having to do so by banning people? doesn't seem fair imo. i know your already typing... if you dont like it you can leave or something of that nature, but i am sure it's a question alot of members is going to want to ask but dont have the "Sack" to do so.
 
Its been said in here numerous times.... He was an industry leading snake producer who condones and PRACTICES releasing snakes in the wild. I want the people who are trying to shut us (hobbyist, full time breeders) down to know we dont condone this behavior and it is not an industry standard to do it.

That's understandable. Why not make it known to those people instead of griping on the forum and being confrontational? The unprofessionalism, petty arguing and pot shots shown in this thread doesn't look any better on the industry.
 
These same questions are asked daily in the BOI. show proof etc...etc.. so why is it that he is banned for asking "you" to show proof of something just everyone else is asked to? people on here are called liars,scammers and so forth everyday and they have to show proof to clear themselfs, but since you're the owner of fauna.. that rule doesn't apply for you? everyone has to defend themself and show proof to the linch mob on here or get dragged through the mud. but since you're the owner you avoid having to do so by banning people? doesn't seem fair imo. i know your already typing... if you dont like it you can leave or something of that nature, but i am sure it's a question alot of members is going to want to ask but dont have the "Sack" to do so.

It isn't because "we don't have the sack," it's because a lot of us realize there is no use KICKING the BARN DOOR AFTER THE COW HAS GOTTEN OUT! :rofl: If he was going to continue in the industry it would be a different matter, I'm sure.

The time for action would have been when he was selling his snakes, questions should have been asked then and inquiries on his practices, etc should have been asked long ago. It's not like the man was a stranger that no one could reach.:confused:
 
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That's understandable. Why not make it known to those people instead of griping on the forum and being confrontational? The unprofessionalism, petty arguing and pot shots shown in this thread doesn't look any better on the industry.
Unprofessional ism? Like calling me names and threatening to ban me? I agree, very unprofessional. :iagree:

It isn't because "we don't have the sack," it's because a lot of us realize there is no use KICKING the BARN DOOR AFTER THE COW HAS GOTTEN OUT! :rofl: If he was going to continue in the industry it would be a different matter, I'm sure.

The time for action would have been when he was selling his snakes, questions should have been asked then and inquiries on his practices, etc should have been asked long ago. It's not like the man was a stranger that no one could reach.:confused:
Maybe because he wasnt posting videos about it back then. This post he made was in the last 30 days as was pointed out already..... :shrug01:
 
It isn't because "we don't have the sack," it's because a lot of us realize there is no use KICKING the BARN DOOR AFTER THE COW HAS GOTTEN OUT! :rofl: If he was going to continue in the industry it would be a different matter, I'm sure.

The time for action would have been when he was selling his snakes, questions should have been asked then and inquiries on his practices, etc should have been asked long ago. It's not like the man was a stranger that no one could reach.:confused:

Thats done everyday in the BOI by you and others. i see no difference in this situation either.
 
These same questions are asked daily in the BOI. show proof etc...etc.. so why is it that he is banned for asking "you" to show proof of something just everyone else is asked to? people on here are called liars,scammers and so forth everyday and they have to show proof to clear themselfs, but since you're the owner of fauna.. that rule doesn't apply for you? everyone has to defend themself and show proof to the linch mob on here or get dragged through the mud. but since you're the owner you avoid having to do so by banning people? doesn't seem fair imo. i know your already typing... if you dont like it you can leave or something of that nature, but i am sure it's a question alot of members is going to want to ask but dont have the "Sack" to do so.

OK, fella, you tell me. How do you PROVE you got a local phone call? I think the guy's name I talked to was Chip, if I remember correctly. He's been to my place before, mostly interested to see if I had boas or new people who had them without the proper permits. That's how he knew I was getting out of the business.

And you are right, this is my site. I will not be lynched on my own site by people acting in the same fanatical and emotional way that they complain about the HSUS and PETA people acting. You know, without facts and just working themselves into a hysteria.

Yep I released corn snakes within their native range. You don't like it, for whatever reason. Unless you have some sort of time machine to change that, then it is my opinion that this is just a lynch mob effort, for whatever reason.

It appears that some people just want my head on a platter. So why is that? Some people got some old axes to grind and they feel this is the opportunity to do that? So tell me, would you allow that sort of crap on your own site? Yeah, I seriously doubt that....
 
OK, fella, you tell me. How do you PROVE you got a local phone call? I think the guy's name I talked to was Chip, if I remember correctly. He's been to my place before, mostly interested to see if I had boas or new people who had them without the proper permits. That's how he knew I was getting out of the business.

And you are right, this is my site. I will not be lynched on my own site by people acting in the same fanatical and emotional way that they complain about the HSUS and PETA people acting. You know, without facts and just working themselves into a hysteria.

Yep I released corn snakes within their native range. You don't like it, for whatever reason. Unless you have some sort of time machine to change that, then it is my opinion that this is just a lynch mob effort, for whatever reason.

It appears that some people just want my head on a platter. So why is that? Some people got some old axes to grind and they feel this is the opportunity to do that? So tell me, would you allow that sort of crap on your own site? Yeah, I seriously doubt that....

I have nothing against you or your site. i just feel rather it is your site or not, you would atleast make an effort to say the same thing to him as you just did me instead of banning him right off. i know there is nothing that can be done now about what you did and that cant be changed but i'm sure you are aware that it really ticked alot of herpers off for you doing it at the time we are fighting one of the biggest fights this hobby has seen and then posting it.
the above 2 highlighted statements show just that rich. you will allow anyones name, reputation and soforth to get dragged through the mud here,linched, rather they are innocent or guilty as long as yours isn't mentioned. and you just said that yourself basically. so it's like basically saying.. you guys lynch, drag through the mud, slam,slander, or what ever else you would like to do as long as it's not me being questioned. question me and you get banned. :shrug01:
 
Unprofessional ism? Like calling me names and threatening to ban me? I agree, very unprofessional. :iagree:

So you believe that YOU were and are acting professional? What kind of profession are we talking about here? Mud wrestling? As for calling you a derogatory name, I do apologize, but I lost my cool momentarily from the constant attacks from you guys. Actually I thought it was quite tame for all the bashing I have been undergoing.

But you ARE going quite a bit overboard, you know. And my having a momentary lapse just doesn't excuse the profane word you were using, and the threat of a ban was directed at you if you continued to do so. You will note that I did not contine myself in that same train of thought.

Maybe because he wasnt posting videos about it back then. This post he made was in the last 30 days as was pointed out already..... :shrug01:

So? You felt that the thread on CornSnakes.com wasn't enough publicity for an issue that you fear HSUS, PETA and SPCA might see, so you wanted to continue on the bandwagon here to make it even more public? You guys seriously wanted it to have MORE publicity? My reasons on that thread weren't enough and you felt that you needed to grab a banner and run around waving it here? Why don't you just log onto those HSUS, PETA, and SPCA sites, send them links to this thread and the CS one to see if they can use this material? Wouldn't it be just great then that you could pat yourself on the back and say "See, I told you they could use that against us?" What a hero you would be then, eh? How proud everyone would be of you! Yay team! Job well done!

So let's see a raise of hands here. How many were actually hoping that FWCC would investigate this and arrest me? Is that what you were all getting goose bumps thinking about? Well sorry to disappoint you that it didn't happen. I'm sure that would have really made your day. What heroes you would all be to your peers then! My, what a wonderful industry this is that a person can get kicked in the nuts and stabbed in the back so regularly. Really you guys do make me proud.....

Oh yeah, and about this quote:

norsmis said:
Its been said in here numerous times.... He was an industry leading snake producer who condones and PRACTICES releasing snakes in the wild. I want the people who are trying to shut us (hobbyist, full time breeders) down to know we dont condone this behavior and it is not an industry standard to do it.

Get your facts straight, please. These were snakes released within their native range, not foreign exotics, which is what that legislation is all about. I believe you are omitting that detail on purpose to try to make your case sound stronger. But seriously, do you HONESTLY believe that your throwing me under the bus is going to save your hide from them and they will say "Gee, that's great stuff! We are so appreciative that you can keep YOUR snakes because you are such an upstanding citizen to help our cause." :rolleyes: I guess I'm the expendable one now that I have retired from the business, eh? Not quite the gold watch I had hoped for, I'm afraid....

Your innocent explanation is belied by the intensity of the attacks I am undergoing here by you and others. Quite honestly, I believe this has long ago passed into the realm of fanaticism.
 
I have nothing against you or your site. i just feel rather it is your site or not, you would atleast make an effort to say the same thing to him as you just did me instead of banning him right off. i know there is nothing that can be done now about what you did and that cant be changed but i'm sure you are aware that it really ticked alot of herpers off for you doing it at the time we are fighting one of the biggest fights this hobby has seen and then posting it.
the above 2 highlighted statements show just that rich. you will allow anyones name, reputation and soforth to get dragged through the mud here,linched, rather they are innocent or guilty as long as yours isn't mentioned. and you just said that yourself basically. so it's like basically saying.. you guys lynch, drag through the mud, slam,slander, or what ever else you would like to do as long as it's not me being questioned. question me and you get banned. :shrug01:

Sorry but nope. His statement wasn't really to get any sort of proof. It was an opportunity to needle me and call me a liar. Check out ALL his posts in this thread, please. His only intention was to attack me here. I had had enough of him.

I realize that I give people a lot of freedom, even to roundly criticize me. But I will only take so much abuse and I am under absolutely no obligation to tolerate anyone who blatantly attacks me. Anyone who believes that they can do so without any recourse is being overly naive, I think. It's not like this is unique or anything. I've banned my share of people simply because I no longer wanted them to be on this site. And I'm sure it will happen again.

If you want to have a civil conversation with me, well fine, but if you push it to where it stops being civil and gets nasty, and I lose my patience with the attacks and then my temper, well you will soon come to realize that I am only human too, but an angry human that can remove you from my presence here. Is that fair? Well to some yes, it would be because it is my site. To others, especially those who wish they could get away with such things, no it wouldn't. To me it's just a fact of life. The world is filled with places that you just can't do anything and everything you like that pisses off the owner.

I do hope that explains my position and attitude sufficiently.
 
All of this is really over releasing some native snakes into their native habitat because someone would rather give them the fighting chance to survive than see them wither away and die?

And, the FWC doesn't even have a problem with it, but still its a big issue?

I don't see any kind of malice on Rich's part. He doesn't deserve this sort of treatment.

Everyone here knows that the thing I hate the most is person who rapes wildlife. This guy put back wildlife for Christ sake, and I know it doesn't seem right as it could have its consequences, but he was doing it from the idea that he was preserving life and giving it a chance.

Right or wrong, and I do understand everyone's view points and concerns, but you're really gonna cause such a fuss and burn a guy like that?
 
Thats done everyday in the BOI by you and others. i see no difference in this situation either.

Excuse me?

This is NOT the BOI (as has been pointed out) and no transaction has occurred in which one member was scammed.

None of you are scammed, in fact, some of you seem ticked off that Rich did not:

1. Give the snakes away for free
2. Put them up for auction (so that some of them can be had for a "song"
3. Adopt them out (still gotten for free)

In fact, some of you just seem very ticked because he did get out early and are hiding your real anger under a more seemingly legitimate gripe. Did he perhaps trump someone else's plans? Was someone perhaps planning to get his snakes at a rock bottom price?

From what I gather from this post and others that have attacked the owner of the site for apparently getting out of business, selling his snakes at lower prices, flooding the market, etc..., it appears that some of you have a very big boner for him and that's just pathetic.

Rich has harmed no one that I can see, and perhaps some people may enjoy herping farther down the line and pick up a few treasures. I would not and do not condone releasing captive bred animals into the wild, but those NATIVE to the area seem less problematic than it's being implied in this thread.

I take it by the many posts of those that apparently don't support the BOI (and the inferences of what happens there) that they may have an alternate motive and it may be that they hope they tick Rich off enough to close the site? Is this perhaps what you want to happen?

***Please do not lump me with any that use the BOI for anything other than what it was designed for. :NoNo: I do not believe that I have "lynched" or acted in any manner but how I would like to be treated if I ended up there..(well perhaps I did a funny once in a while:dgrin:).
 
Excuse me?

This is NOT the BOI (as has been pointed out) and no transaction has occurred in which one member was scammed.

None of you are scammed, in fact, some of you seem ticked off that Rich did not:

1. Give the snakes away for free
2. Put them up for auction (so that some of them can be had for a "song"
3. Adopt them out (still gotten for free)

In fact, some of you just seem very ticked because he did get out early and are hiding your real anger under a more seemingly legitimate gripe. Did he perhaps trump someone else's plans? Was someone perhaps planning to get his snakes at a rock bottom price?

From what I gather from this post and others that have attacked the owner of the site for apparently getting out of business, selling his snakes at lower prices, flooding the market, etc..., it appears that some of you have a very big boner for him and that's just pathetic.

Rich has harmed no one that I can see, and perhaps some people may enjoy herping farther down the line and pick up a few treasures. I would not and do not condone releasing captive bred animals into the wild, but those NATIVE to the area seem less problematic than it's being implied in this thread.

I take it by the many posts of those that apparently don't support the BOI (and the inferences of what happens there) that they may have an alternate motive and it may be that they hope they tick Rich off enough to close the site? Is this perhaps what you want to happen?

***Please do not lump me with any that use the BOI for anything other than what it was designed for. :NoNo: I do not believe that I have "lynched" or acted in any manner but how I would like to be treated if I ended up there..(well perhaps I did a funny once in a while:dgrin:).

Actually that is an interesting perspective in all this. I have to admit that never in my life have I come under attack from so many directions. So possibly people are just PISSED that I was able to exit this business with my skin intact? So they want to change that after the fact? Why would it bother people that I decided to retire? Did they just want me to continue doing this until it put me or Connie into our death beds? Then they would have felt better about it?

Interestingly enough, Mark Bell told me that he got inundated with calls from people after I posted the notice on my site that he had bought out all of my remaining animals. Personally, I believe a LOT of people were waiting for me to go into panic mode and have to dump those animals at drastically reduced prices to meet my goal of having them all gone by January 1, 2010. I had killed off my mouse colony, so I was pretty much committed to make that happen. Mark said that from the comments he got from some people, he believes that I just yanked the rug out from under a lot of them when they all got sold off suddenly to him. Matter of fact I had several people contact me about buying those animals after the fact, but I told them they had to deal with Mark as they were now his animals even though they were still in my possession. I believe some got pissed that I wouldn't break my word to Mark and sell to them instead. And to add further insult to injury, Mark stated that he was so impressed with the animals that MOST of them are not going to be sold, but instead will be kept as his own breeding stock. Ouch, sorry, guess maybe that is just rubbing salt into the wounds for some people, but that is the simple fact of the matter. Some people just waited too long and the boat left the dock without them. Seriously Mark got some VERY nice snakes. He was constantly commenting so when we were bagging them up for him at our place to take back to Naples. Yeah, it was a bit traumatic for me, but in some things, there just can't be any compromises. It was an "all or nothing" time in my life.

As for me dumping animals, yeah, right..... If anyone believes that selling corn snakes for $100 a pop at Expo is "dumping", well I sure wish I had had YOUR customer list this past year... :rofl: Yeah, some people got some deals, but nothing I sold was at prices like I heard other people have been offering. I heard people couldn't even sell their corns at 3 for $10. So yeah, perhaps people choosing to buy MY stuff instead of theirs pissed them off as well. I think many people would have liked me to keep my prices higher then theirs until they sold out all of their animals, but sorry about that. I had people actually come out and tell me that they would check out my prices and then charge $25 less because they felt they couldn't compete with me otherwise. Like I was supposed to feel complimented enough to ignore that they were purposely undercutting my prices?

Well guys, sorry that I did well at Expo and maybe you didn't. But tell me, if my prices were so cheap, who put the ball and chain around YOUR ankles to keep you from snatching up all those deals that were undercutting your prices?

At the end of the show, Mark bought everything that I wasn't able to sell at my asked for prices on the tables. And there were a LOT of them, like maybe 800, so yeah, if I was dumping cornsnakes so cheaply, how come I had to sell so many to Mark at the end of the show? Had ANYONE come to my tables to make me an offer, perhaps they would have gotten that great deal as well. But did they? Nope. So whose fault is that? Yeah, Mark definitely got a good deal, but he deserved it, and I'm glad it worked out that way.

Actually this is an interesting perspective to this whole thing. Thank you for that thought..... Certainly all taking potshots at me aren't part of this sort of aspect, but I have to think perhaps some are.

Yeah, perhaps I did piss off some vultures........... :rofl: That sure would explain things, now wouldn't it?

Darn, this was supposed to be a short note. Definitely have too much time on my hands lately..... :rofl:
 
I for one am not envious of how well anyone else does in this business/hobby. I don't care if someone else retires and makes out like a bandit. I do care though, when someone announces a practice that I believe to be wrong and can potentially affect my enjoyment of my hobby.

Releasing captive born wildlife into that wild, native or otherwise, is wrong in my opinion. Anyone that needs to see proof of the potential damage that can be done by this practice is just blowing smoke, also my opinion.
 
From what I gather from this post and others that have attacked the owner of the site for apparently getting out of business, selling his snakes at lower prices, flooding the market, etc..., it appears that some of you have a very big boner for him and that's just pathetic.
Take off the blinders!
The only thing people are upset about is the fact that captive snakes were released into the wild.
It was only AFTER he got out of the business was this brought to light by his own words.


Rich has harmed no one that I can see, and perhaps some people may enjoy herping farther down the line and pick up a few treasures. I would not and do not condone releasing captive bred animals into the wild, but those NATIVE to the area seem less problematic than it's being implied in this thread.
Native or not, it is harmful to the ecosystem to release captive bred snakes into the wild. You say you don't agree with it but it's OK in this instance? Make up your mind.
 
I for one am not envious of how well anyone else does in this business/hobby. I don't care if someone else retires and makes out like a bandit. I do care though, when someone announces a practice that I believe to be wrong and can potentially affect my enjoyment of my hobby.

:iagree:

---

About the thread, though.... I certainly hope that none of my posts came across as an attack on Rich. I feel insulting and attacking people is the last resort of those who can't logically argue their own position, and I try my hardest to be calm and patient as much as I can. So if any of my comments seemed antagonistic, please let me know. I don't want to come across that way.

Again, the whole purpose in posting my comments here is so that others don't take this as one of those, "Oh, hey, he does it, so it must be okay." That was my sole reason for joining this discussion. The snakes were released a while ago, and no amount of jabber is going to change that. I also don't have any beef against Rich for his success as a breeder or anything else. I think it's fantastic that he was able to not only make a living off breeding reptiles, but he was also able to retire from it. I would love to be able to do that.
 
Take off the blinders!
The only thing people are upset about is the fact that captive snakes were released into the wild.
It was only AFTER he got out of the business was this brought to light by his own words.



Native or not, it is harmful to the ecosystem to release captive bred snakes into the wild. You say you don't agree with it but it's OK in this instance? Make up your mind.

I didn't know I had to spell it all out. But apparently in this instance,...right here, I do. :rolleyes:

Clarification: I do not agree with releasing captive bred snakes into the wild, but in THIS INSTANCE it seems that no harm was done and apparently even those that are tasked with enforcing any law regarding said event do not believe that it's a big deal either.

In fact, if the ban on snakes does happen, and by any chance Ball Pythons makes that list due to some irrational fears....I wish I could release all my BPs instead of having to KILL them all, which is exactly what I will have to do. :(
 
In fact, if the ban on snakes does happen, and by any chance Ball Pythons makes that list due to some irrational fears....I wish I could release all my BPs instead of having to KILL them all, which is exactly what I will have to do. :(
Wow, that's a pretty extreme response. At present (as far as I know) what is on the table amounts to shipping restrictions. Yes, I oversimplified it, but you would be able to keep your snakes...and even ship them within the state. Granted, its a limited market; BUT, if you get enjoyment from them, why get get rid of them (regardless of the means).
 
Wow, that's a pretty extreme response. At present (as far as I know) what is on the table amounts to shipping restrictions. Yes, I oversimplified it, but you would be able to keep your snakes...and even ship them within the state. Granted, its a limited market; BUT, if you get enjoyment from them, why get get rid of them (regardless of the means).

I was referring to if BPs were outright banned as in the event that they were against the law to have at all. Regarding the enjoyment aspect, I would not be able to keep the number of snakes that I do have simply for "enjoyment" (they are a lot of work too), so I would probably still have to scale down my collection. However, if they were not outright banned, I do have a number of reputable breeders that would take them off my hands if I wanted to go that route (if the snakes were not banned and I decided to scale down my collection).

As a government employee, I can't be seen breaking laws no matter how unfair I believe them to be (if I want to remain employed there).
 
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