Venomoids, the right and the wrong.

[ScottyPimpin]

I've been a constrictor keeper for about 20 years now. Recently considering a hot/venomoid so i've done quite a bit of research, forum searching etc. This is my point of view that i'd like to share.
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opions.... there's a saying i'm sure everyone is familiar with. "Opinions are like @assholes, everybody has one".

I'm not jumping on either side of the boat because if i did, it would simply be my opinion. What's right to a person is determined about how they "feel" about the topic. I hate to break it to ya but "feelings" are generated (aka made up) by you. Some people "feel" offended by some things that others "feel" is something stupid to be offended by.

Bottom line is we (humans) are king of the jungle. Modern medicine has gone a long way and it's going to continue to get better as time goes on. To say venomoid is just wrong and shouldn't be performed is a bit extreme. If it can be done people are going to do it, that's how it works.

So if a person wants a breed of snake that is naturally venomous but doesn't want to take the risk of dieing when he/she gets bit.. well it makes perfect sense. But how that person goes about having the snakes capability to produce/inject venom is what this topic should be about.

The Wrong?
Having glands, venom sack etc removed by a non licensed individual with no medicine to ease the pain is simply wrong. Now you may say "that's your opinion" and your right. But i'm not going to have my teeth pulled or a knee replacement surgery done by some guy in a garage with no license and no medicine.

The Right?
Having the procedure done by a licensed reptile surgeon. The snake treated for pain before and after surgery. Removing the entire venom apparatus, including the glands. Replacing them with medical grade implants to fill the area where venom glands were removed.

Some of you may be familiar with that information because it's nearly word for word from Venomoidinc.

So let's get passed the whole "venomoids are right or wrong" and move on. Things change because humans change them. If there's a will there's a way and that's why modern medicine has evolved to the level it has today. I have a saying, "If it's worth doing, do it right" and for that I give venomoidinc 100% support on what they are doing. It may not be for everyone, that's all about having a choice in how to live your life.

There are people not only on this forum but all over that ask about having the venom removed. Instead of being an extremist why not point them in the right direction and show them the right procedure vs the wrong. It's a lot more effective then just saying "it's not ethical, venom grows back" etc.

That's my $.02

 

[hhmoore]

I'm sure the good doctor appreciates your efforts at promoting and advertising his business

 

[Helenthereef]

I've been a constrictor keeper for about 20 years now. Recently considering a hot/venomoid so i've done quite a bit of research, forum searching etc. This is my point of view that i'd like to share.
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I hate to break it to ya but "feelings" are generated (aka made up) by you."



These are your feelings right?

 

[ScottyPimpin]

I've been a constrictor keeper for about 20 years now. Recently considering a hot/venomoid so i've done quite a bit of research, forum searching etc. This is my point of view that i'd like to share.
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I hate to break it to ya but "feelings" are generated (aka made up) by you."



These are your feelings right?

After 432 posts you'd think a person would learn how to use the quotes correctly.... Why don't you try reading the entire post before you pick apart the very beginning and try to comment on it.

This is a forum so i know they don't test your education level before letting you in as a member. So let me summarize my post just in case it's too much for you to read.

Summary
There are proper ways and safe ways of making a venomous snake a venomoid. The snake handling community should help those interested in a venomoid by pointing them in the right direction for the procedure.

To answer your smart ass comment, read the very bottom of my post where it says That's my $.02

 

[hhmoore]

Well, Mr Carrying Some Kind of Chip on Your Shoulder, you botched the quote tags, too

The snake handling community should help those interested in a venomoid by pointing them in the right direction for the procedure.

Why should the snake handling community direct people toward your selected vendor - or any other - if they disagree with either the process or the end result?

 

[Alex G]

Lol... I apologize ahead of time for the controversial comparison, can't think of anything else right now...

"Eugenics is totally safe, as long as you only let certain people decide which genes are deleterious or not! Instead of always telling people who are asking about it to go read a book, why not direct them to a proper genetics counselor, so they can weed out genes they dislike safely! Changes only occur because humans deign them to occur, it is our divine right as the ALMIGHTY MASTER RACE! Just my $.02"

 

[Gary O]

I tell you what. Doctors make mistakes all the time. Are you ready to put your life in a vets hands.......................... There is probably not one soul against this more then I. I have seen this said vendor FREEHANDLE gaboons at a certain show. At a SHOW! BS if you ask me.

 

[ScottyPimpin]

I tell you what. Doctors make mistakes all the time. Are you ready to put your life in a vets hands.......................... There is probably not one soul against this more then I. I have seen this said vendor FREEHANDLE gaboons at a certain show. At a SHOW! BS if you ask me.

Your right to a certain extent, humans do make mistakes. I'm sure if the doctor was just making an incision to the glands it is possible and i nor most people would trust it. It's hard to make a mistake when your removing the entire apparatus, but i'm far from a Dr so that's just me picturing it the best I can. But lets not forget that practice makes perfect, you'll always get better and more accurate the more you do something, that is a fact.

Your saying that the vendor i mentioned (venomoidinc) FREEHANDLE a venomoid they performed the procedure on at a show... I don't see how this is a bad thing. It's very bold but it shows how certain they are and how much they trust their own procedure.

 

[hhmoore]

Scott - are they paying you a commission for every time you post the business name someplace? Are you in any way associated with them? If not, why are you plugging them so hard?

 

[ScottyPimpin]

Scott - are they paying you a commission for every time you post the business name someplace? Are you in any way associated with them? If not, why are you plugging them so hard?

No i'm not associated with them in any way. The reason i mention their name is because they are the only ones I know of that perform this type of procedure in the manner they do. From the beginning i've been trying to talk about the procedure in general using modern medical technology. Unfortunately there is no one else that does it that i'm aware of.

 

[hhmoore]

I'm not interested in engaging in yet another intact vs venomoid discussion - you have your opinion, and you are welcome to it...but labeling me an "extemist" because I don't advocate the procedure is a bit ridiculous, don't you think?

 

[ScottyPimpin]

I was attempting to use the word extreme or extremist as an example of the 2 completely different sides. One side only wants one thing and won't budge to change and the other side being the same but with their opposite point of views.

I'm not here to make enemies and if i offended you, i apologize. I'm just looking for some middle ground between the two sides.

 

[Twizted Paths]

Your saying that the vendor i mentioned (venomoidinc) FREEHANDLE a venomoid they performed the procedure on at a show... I don't see how this is a bad thing. It's very bold but it shows how certain they are and how much they trust their own procedure.

That kind of careless disregard is why I have not gone to shows that allow venomous.

I'm not anti hot either. I think that they are beautiful & perfectly fine for responsible trained people to keep.

If I ever decide to purchase one, it will not be from people who publicly demonstrate unsafe handling practices.

 

[MikeCurtin]

I don't consider myself an extremist. Maybe...that's a big maybe...Venomoid inc. can guarantee their procedure, but how do they back it up? Money back guarantee if one of our venomoids kills you? If you haven't already watched the video, check it out on youtube. 2 of 3 venomoid cobras give venom. This is not a risk I'd ever be willing to take, and I don't care how good the surgeon is.

Also, free-handling a hot at a show sends a very bad message to others out there. It says venomoids are safe, and that they can be handled just like anything else. Well, for argument's sake, what if Venomoid Inc. is the only company that does the procedure properly? Did their representative hold up a big sign telling people they could only do that with a venomoid they had created? No, his actions said "venomoids are safe". That's irresponsible behavior if I've ever seen it!

 

[JordanAng420]

I don't really want to debate the venemoid subject, I have done so previously on other forums. But I will say this. Surgeries are done to save lives or improve the quality of life. These are not surgeries but mutilations of the animals. There is no benefit to these operations for the animals, and people who admire them for what they are would never do such a thing. There are far too many non venomous snakes out there for people wanting pets. What next? Cut of a monitors tail so you can fit it in a smaller cage? When you have to mutilate an animal to keep it you are going against the very basic tenets of proper husbandry, fulfilling the animals needs. Such behavior is reprehensible and tantamount to when runaway slaves were hobbled in an effort to prevent them from escaping. If one does not have the capabilities to properly care and house animals then they shouldnt have them.

 

[hhmoore]

I was attempting to use the word extreme or extremist as an example of the 2 completely different sides. One side only wants one thing and won't budge to change and the other side being the same but with their opposite point of views.

That may have been your intent, but what you said was

Instead of being an extremist why not point them in the right direction

That pretty much says that your side is right, and the other one is wrong.
You are correct, though, in that the two sides are entrenched. No amount of posting will convert anybody that has chosen a stance.

I don't know if you have bothered to read any of the other threads on this topic here, but there's some interesting reading - even if you bypass the "extremist" stories about "hacks" butchering snakes in their basements, lol. Gary has posted an account from a very reliable source which addresses "hot" voids (he has also pointed out that your vendor of choice will not guarantee that a snake is rendered harmless & incapable of venom production). I had a friend who was nearly killed by a surgically altered cobra - though that doesn't have much to do with my opinion on the matter -I know I've referenced it, and I think I've posted the full story, too.

 

[Tim Cole]

I don't really want to debate the venemoid subject, I have done so previously on other forums. But I will say this. Surgeries are done to save lives or improve the quality of life. These are not surgeries but mutilations of the animals. There is no benefit to these operations for the animals, and people who admire them for what they are would never do such a thing. There are far too many non venomous snakes out there for people wanting pets. What next? Cut of a monitors tail so you can fit it in a smaller cage? When you have to mutilate an animal to keep it you are going against the very basic tenets of proper husbandry, fulfilling the animals needs. Such behavior is reprehensible and tantamount to when runaway slaves were hobbled in an effort to prevent them from escaping. If one does not have the capabilities to properly care and house animals then they shouldnt have them.

AGREED 100%!

 

[Alex G]

As far as "it's ok as long as a vet with modern medical tech does it" goes... I lost a cat a few years ago to our family vet because they overshot the anesthesia on a routine TEETH CLEANING and he went into cardiac arrest. As much training as vets get, they don't have the same benefit human doctors have of patients that can tell them if something's wrong or be liable if a patient dies under their care. I wouldn't trust them to do something as risky as a venomoid op, because not only does it put the animal at risk, it puts the keeper at risk. If you can't keep hots and resist the urge to handle them... DON'T KEEP HOTS. Simple as that.

 

[Lucille]

Instead of being an extremist why not point them in the right direction

I'll do that!!! The right direction is to run away from ANYONE trying to sell you a void or a void procedure.

As long as there seems to be advertising in this thread, let me follow suit (well, not advertising, just an offer to help out): I'll kick in five hours of my time helping in preparation, to anyone hurt by a void and wanting to sue

 

[Helenthereef]

I don't really want to debate the venemoid subject, I have done so previously on other forums. But I will say this. Surgeries are done to save lives or improve the quality of life. These are not surgeries but mutilations of the animals. There is no benefit to these operations for the animals, and people who admire them for what they are would never do such a thing. There are far too many non venomous snakes out there for people wanting pets. What next? Cut of a monitors tail so you can fit it in a smaller cage? When you have to mutilate an animal to keep it you are going against the very basic tenets of proper husbandry, fulfilling the animals needs. Such behavior is reprehensible and tantamount to when runaway slaves were hobbled in an effort to prevent them from escaping. If one does not have the capabilities to properly care and house animals then they shouldnt have them.