Venomoids, the right and the wrong.

[reticguy76]

maia. excellent post, and couldnt agree more. it is a mutilation procedure. i have hots, and in my opinion, do not own a hot, if you are uncomfortable with its full potential.

 

[Strike_Force_Reptiles]

ok im going to get in on this 1 and post once and only once and yall can have at it. my view is this i do not agree with a person buying or having a venomoid surg done on a hot if they only intend on using it to sit in their home just so they can tell their friends look what i got its cool or for them to have one just so they can play with it like a ball python. venomous is venomous if it has venom or not and should be treated like its 100% hot. if you do not intend on using venomoids in a productive way then you should not have them period. if you get a venomoid just to breed them because u dont want to get bite then whats going to happen when the babies pop? they just going to stay in a dirty cage cause you are scared to get them out to clean it? i myself deal with hots and i also use venomoids for educational shows for 1 reason and 1 reason only, to lessing the risk of someone getting hurt if it does happen to get away from me but i still treat it like it 100% hot. i still use hooks and everything in the same way i would with a hot with 100% venom. i also use 6@1/2' glass walls around me and the venomoid so it lessings the chance of escapes. also i never tell anyone that i do shows for that they are venomoid so they wont get any ideas in their heads hey these guy are safe and we can play with them. there should never be any free handing or petting of a hot even if its a venomoid or not. a venomoid is dangerous no mater who does the surg but it lowers the risk if the person is experienced with the surg but they are STILL DANGEROUS! so now i will list what i think is ok and not ok

i think it is ok to have Venomoids ONLY if they are used for educational purposes!

i DO NOT think its ok to have them just to look at are try to play with like a boa or python!

i also think you need experience with hots before you even think about doing educational shows with venomoids, things do happen and think of what will happen if someone else gets hurt because you didnt know what you were doing! just a note just incase anyone not experienced will say ok im going to do shows

thank you i am done!

 

[Gary O]

Your right to a certain extent, humans do make mistakes. I'm sure if the doctor was just making an incision to the glands it is possible and i nor most people would trust it. It's hard to make a mistake when your removing the entire apparatus, but i'm far from a Dr so that's just me picturing it the best I can. But lets not forget that practice makes perfect, you'll always get better and more accurate the more you do something, that is a fact.

Your saying that the vendor i mentioned (venomoidinc) FREEHANDLE a venomoid they performed the procedure on at a show... I don't see how this is a bad thing. It's very bold but it shows how certain they are and how much they trust their own procedure.

A freind of mine that has been in the hot community far longer then I have had a vet do this surgery on dead animals. This Vet said that the tissue around the gland and the gland itself can be mistaken. If any gland is laeft behind it can repair itself and the animal once again become venomous. That is why your said vendor will never put in writting that a snake he does this two will NEVER become venomous again. Becuase there is a chance.

Yes it was freehandled within striking range of the public!

 

[Gary O]

This thread is showing me a lot of people are educating themselves on this subject.... WOW That is great

It is sad though. Soon there may not be anything to fight about. I have seen in the last 2 years this hobby be ripped apart by ourselves. We spend so much time on things that dont matter.

I told Rich this. But I am to the point where I want to take my animals and just fade away and just care for them. The hobby is no longer a hobby.Not becuase the animals are not fun but becuase the people are making it not fun.

Alter this...... Do this....Dont do that..... You have to breed this way........ You have to sell this way...... Shows are dumb.....

I have heard it all. I was in the hobby when it was great. I got help from people like the Bells, BHB, Hampers, and many other great people that use to vend the Ohio show. I am still friends with many of them.

I love my hots. I feel they to will be ripped away from me. One reason is a vet wanting to make more money and put venomous species into the hands of people that do not need to have them. For what to be cool? I tell you what keep your pedestal. I will sit in my corner with the things I love. Dont care what people think.

Im out............

 

[hhmoore]

A freind of mine that has been in the hot community far longer then I have had a vet do this surgery on dead animals. This Vet said that the tissue around the gland and the gland itself can be mistaken.

Did that vet write an article on that which ended up online, Gary?
I've seen two such accounts by vets, and both said essentially the same thing. I was going to try to dig them up for the OP, but I had other issues to address last night.

 

[Gary O]

I will email Tanith to find out my friend!

 

[adder]

Mmmm

When I look at web forums I see an endless lot of dribble prostituted as truth and gospel and I hate to say this, but the BS Factor has raised it's head here.
I am not here to convert people to venomoids.
Most posting against it are Zealots in the samer league as those who seek to ban private keeping of snakes because "it's cruel to stick them in boxes".
So lets just agree to disagree on the venomoids (right or wrong).
My main aim here is simply to stick to the truth and a comment here really pissed me off because I have seen it bounce around the web and it is total CRAP!
I read in this thread,

"A freind of mine that has been in the hot community far longer then I have had a vet do this surgery on dead animals. This Vet said that the tissue around the gland and the gland itself can be mistaken."
This is so ridiculous as to be stupid.
Yes, if the practitioner is blind, deaf and stupid, he may confuse GLAND tissue with the MUSCLE surrounding it. But most 4 year olds could tell them apart.
They are even easily separated on a three-day old roadkill!
... Now lets think of some other excuse to bag venomoids....
ALL THE BEST - RAYMOND HOSER

 

[adder]

Before the flames fly re the above pic

The Taipans in the image above MUST by law be venomoid in our legal jurisdiction in order to allowed in the displays they do daily.
Also under S32 of the OH and S Act here, I must look after my staff who handle the snakes and they are by law prohibited from handling venomous snakes with venom in tact when vet certified venomoids are an option.
And the snakes shown have been free handled daily for years and we think that's better than sticks and killer tongs for frequently handled snakes.
BTW We don't trade venomoids, ours are in house in Australia and always disclosed as such as we regard it unethical to pretend otherwise, although business rivals without said snakes never cease complaining.
ALL THE BEST

 

[reticguy76]

im still trying to understand, why have a venomoid snake (for anything maybe other than educational purpose). if one doesnt want the chance to get bit by a hot, dont keep a hot

 

[Strike_Force_Reptiles]

ok sorry couldnt hold back on this 1. tell me if im misunderstanding it but in your country they dont want to export snakes for world to share in their snakes because they want them protected and kept in their country but they make you turn them all venomous into venomoids? that is still destroying the nature of these snakes. its one thing to be productive and use them for educational purposes but just to own them is not right. thought our government was screwed up boy we all have issues. just let me know if im wrong

 

[Gary O]

Hey Raymond nice to see you. Yeah you dont use tongs you just slap the head of the snake against your own untill it bites. Or force it to bite your arm. Yeah that is so much better.

I tell you this. If you think a human can not make a mistake then you sir are living with blinders on.

 

[Gary O]

There is no reason to free handle a venomous or venomoid snake in public NONE!!!!

Ray you do not educate on the natural history of the snake you make it the main point to show you can take bites from your hacked snakes. That is not education.

 

[Strike_Force_Reptiles]

There is no reason to free handle a venomous or venomoid snake in public NONE!!!!

Ray you do not educate on the natural history of the snake you make it the main point to show you can take bites from your hacked snakes. That is not education.

educational means teaching something productive about the snakes not making yourself look stupid thanks for pointing that 1 out Gary
Ray is not someone to learn from

 

[adder]

Flame suit on

Dear all, someone here got it right when they said the Australian government is screwed up.
I wrote a couple of relevant books about it.
They are called "Smuggled: The Underground Trade in Australia's wildlife".
And "Smuggled-2".
With S273 coming along in the USA, maybe a few so-called herpers should take a read of the books to see what's coming to "the land of the free" and pull your fingers out to stop the rot!
Mmm, maybe some of you are too busy whtie-anting the herp community by your irrational anti-venomoid zealotry, that plays straight into the arms of HSUS and the like...
Anyway, Gary, your posts about the video are as usual totally misleading.
The video made that you refer to is not a daily occurrence for snake shows here.
It was made in response to a non-stop barrage of false claims on the web on sites you frequent, stating that our venomoids had regenerated venom and were a mortal public risk.
Fact is none have!
And if you read my other post on this forum, you'd recall my comments about how amazing this is, considering I am allegedly an idiot who hacks up snakes in the comfort of my garage with kitchen knives and I'd also allegedly have trouble distinguishing a venom gland from a subcaudal scale.
You may recall that after posting a Taipan bite on the web, I was falsely accused of faking the pic, so the next logical step was to do a series of bites in front of a public audience, as seen in the video.
At least no one accused me of faking it, but as we all know, the "truth haters" raise all these idiot objections, like "what if a kid tries this?".
That we know is bullshit, because no kid would have access to the world's deadliest snakes in such a way as to line them up to bite them.
And here's a simple number to remember - as a result of our world-leading demonstrations (yes our venomoids do snake shows DAILY, which was actually the first justification for the operation - the second and more relevant is the welfare benefits for the snakes - no tongs here!), NO CHILD IN VICTORIA has died from snakebite in Victoria in the six years of our venomoid shows and this is testimony to our success as the main and market dominating snake show in the state.
Noting that we are also top-rated in Schools also by independent comparisons and that teachers are lining up for us, it rebuts the claims our shows are misleading impressionable young kids.
Victoria went from highest death from snakebite rate in Australia (predating our shows) to lowest (for which we, Snakebusters and staff, singularly take full credit) and Gary, you can't argue with the scoreboard ... maybe you will?
As for cruelty, the venomoid operation isn't cruel, free handling is good for the snakes.
Making snakes bite me is an act of cruelty and something I wouldn't do any more than neccessary (we've made about ten such videos and solely for the basis of shuting up the liars and "truth haters"), and the cruelty is that I taste of lettuce and that is not the natural diet of snakes.
PS If you want to say I taste like shit, I'll put up with that too!
PPS You may also notice from our videos that contrary to the crap I see on the web about snakes being aggressive, Taipans, Death Adders and the like are not man-eating monsters itching to kill people.
PPPS I have just loaded a load of elapids into the car for another series of shows today and two lots were mating and NONE had any interest in biting... but of course those who think they know better will continue to post misguided crap about venomoids here and elsewhere and as this happens S273 will roll on unopposed ... and when it hits I will know who to blame!
ALL THE BEST
RAYMOND HOSER

 

[Gary O]

Fact is you slapped the heads of venomous snakes against your own head to make them bite. You forced the animal to bite your arm.

You say it is not a normal thing you do. But that is all I have seen you do. In two different set ups I believe one was indoors and the other was an outdoor show.

Their was no need for it.

Venomoids are the unloaded gun of the venomous world.

 

[hhmoore]

those who think they know better will continue to post misguided crap about venomoids here and elsewhere and as this happens S273 will roll on unopposed ... and when it hits I will know who to blame!

R-r-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-ight. Because people are so simple minded that they can't manage to refocus on other things after a prancing pony passes the window. Sure, the spectacle might catch people's eye - and, surely, that was the intent - but after we spend a few minutes on Did you see that? (or, What a friggin idiot, as the case may be) most of us can snap ourselves out of it and get on with our lives.

BTW, proper use of a snake hook is no more traumatizing to a snake than being lifted by a hand....or maybe you do things differently in Australia?

 

[adder]

Well I think I won the argument.
I pointed out that there was misinformation here about telling the difference between venom gland and muscle and all I got in response was "venomoids are butchered snakes", your venomoid bite videos are shockers and similar.
That view is fine, but please stick to telling the truth about things.
Lets try starting with "venomoid by definition means NO VENOM" ... easy!

 

[Lucille]

Well I think I won the argument.
I pointed out that there was misinformation here about telling the difference between venom gland and muscle and all I got in response was "venomoids are butchered snakes", your venomoid bite videos are shockers and similar.
That view is fine, but please stick to telling the truth about things.
Lets try starting with "venomoid by definition means NO VENOM" .

Win? Argument? Ahhh, I see, instead of a discussion, sharing information, you seem to be trying to direct the conversation, wanting it to be YOUR way.

Unfortunately, it is not. Venomoid surgery is not an exact science. So if you are standing over a dead person who THOUGHT he was handling a venomoid, and got tagged, and died as a result, and you are smiling down on the dead body and saying 'venomoid by definition means NO VENOM' why yes, you won. Happy?

 

[adder]

lucille - you have a point - we shouldn't be arguing.

But what am I to do when I point out an obvious piece of
misinformation, only to have a bunch of argumentative people
changing the subject to an irrelevant video that shows nothing like an operation or the difference between muscle and organ, which was the basis of my first post here (please read it, instead of jumping the gun).
The video the referred to by Gary O and others only relates to another bit of a lie in that the said snakes had regenerated venom, which the video more than adequately disproves, totally pissing off the liars!

If you jump off a cliff and kill youself I will stand over your dead body and say, "humans can fly ... but better to have tried a helicopter!"

Ah yes, back to S273, one idiot kills themselves when drunk with a Broghammerus, so we ban all pythons. Makes sense yeh?

Try joining HSUS!

It's the same lies and Zealotry we see against venomoids.

If you have any concern for the welfare of people, reptiles or the legitimate passtime of keeping snakes in boxes, redirect your anger towards those trying to stop the hobby and not the sometimes legit use of devenomized snakes for the snake's own welfare and/or public safety.

ALL THE BEST

 

[adder]

Exact science - yes it is...

Lucile,
you wrote:

"Venomoid surgery is not an exact science. "

I beg to differ - it is. There's even textbooks about it. Try Doug Mader's for a start...(mm, let me guess, you've never heard of him or some other Funky dude called Dr Richard?)

Here's the science part that is EXACT.

"See gland, cut whole thing out as well as nearby duct and mucle ball at rear (you probably didn't know they looked like this, because you don;t get that off the web)! - Simple"

As for other operation, TEST later to make sure it worked.

Person who doesn't do test is idiot.

Simple.

PS Don't buy a used venomoid from a car dealer...

PPS If yellowish stuff still comes out of fang and snake is missing testicles, you probably cut the wrong end!

Hope this makes sense.

Raymond