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Labeling possible hets.

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So sitting here looking through various animals for sale on this and other sites got me thinking about labeling possible hets. I have seen a number of threads that were labeled het for whatever and upon contacting the seller I found out that it was only a possible het. I understand that not everyone knows about genetics, however I was curious as to people's thoughts about labeling possible hets. At what point do you stop labeling an animal as a possible het?

For example lets say I have a Honduran milksnake that is 100% het for albino (we will keep it to one gene because multiple genes makes the math hurt my head after a generation or two :D). I take this snake and breed it to a normal het for nothing. The babies are now going all be 50% het for albino, right. I would label this, as most would, "50% possible het albino or possible het albino". However, lets now say I take one of these 50% het albino babies and breed it to another normal het for nothing. I would be hesitant to label this as a possible het albino, although it certainly is. If my math is correct, they would be 25% het for albino. This is of course assuming that I have not proved out the 50% het albino snake. After this, you can see how it gets quite hairy.

I would not hesitate, and do, label possible hets if they are ^ 50%. Perhaps even 25% I can understand. However, beyond this the chances are so small that it is very unlikely the snake/or whatever is het for anything. With all of the hets being sold and purchased out there this is going to become a concern for someone looking for 100% hets or to prove out a 100% het they already have without the cost of a homozygous animal.

I should also mention that I do see a lot of threads correctly labeled as possible hets. I don't want to give the impression that mislabeling is rampant, just that it does happen.

I understand that this is purely hypothetical. However, these are the kinds of questions that get me thinking about the industry as a whole.

Thanks,

Kyle
 
i guess the thing is if you can get say 6 possible hets for the same price as a 100%het and do not mind doing the leg work to prove them out then it would be worth it but you definatly have to know what the parents backround is before you buy. i always do my homework when it comes to hets and never jump on a deal thats how you get burned.
 
I think it can't hurt to label them, but there's no point in pricing the higher than a normal. What's important in these cases is to give buyers a way to track the animals' genealogy. If a parent is proven a het, then suddenly that percentage changes, and they're going to want to know it's worth a shot to try proving the snake out.
 
It matters to me. I have sold 100% het stuff as normals becuase a person calls me up and wants say a nice ball python for a pet. If I do not have normals I look at my hets to sell them.

Then if I have 66% or 50% males it matters on what morph it is. Once it gets down nder 50% I rarely say anything
 
WingedWolf said:
I think it can't hurt to label them, but there's no point in pricing the higher than a normal. What's important in these cases is to give buyers a way to track the animals' genealogy. If a parent is proven a het, then suddenly that percentage changes, and they're going to want to know it's worth a shot to try proving the snake out.
Click to expand...

:iagree:

There certainly is utility in knowing that the grandparent of a given animal was het for whatever. I know I have purchased possible hets with def hets or homozygous animals because they were cheaper than 2 100% het animals or 2 homozygous animals. If they prove out, it is GREAT!:D

The pricing issue is something that I did not even talk about but you bring up a good point about pricing possible hets higher. 100% hets yes, but possible hets? Thoughts? I generally have not/do not but I know that some do.
 
I have on fairly rare occasions seen 33% and 25% hets offered for sale. Strictly mathematically speaking I suppose that is an accurate description, but I always viewed the practice as semi unethical when using it to justify even a slightly higher price tag.
The reason is once you drop below 50% het, you are no longer even sure if the gene was involved in the breeding at all. So while they are mathematically 25% het, that doesn't mean much at all.
With 50% and 66% hets you are guaranteed a chance that you might hit the gene because you know that one or both of the parents were indeed carrying it.
Perhaps that only makes sense to me, but that's the way I have always viewed it.

The pricing issue is something that I did not even talk about but you bring up a good point about pricing possible hets higher. 100% hets yes, but possible hets? Thoughts? I generally have not/do not but I know that some do.
Click to expand...

These days 50 and 66% pos hets are at best priced just a few dollars higher than normals if any at all. I mean you might see a normal female ball for $40 and a 66% pos het for 50.
In the past though, during the height of the ball python craze there were instances where pos hets were priced significantly higher than normals and it was an accepted practice.
For instance the genetic stripe gene. When they first entered the market, i fmy memory serves, visuals were priced at $20K and 100% hets were 7 or 8K each.
50% het females were priced at $500 the first couple of years. This was 20 times the cost of a normal female hatchling, but given the exorbitant price of the visuals and hets, it was still a good way for a gambler to get a chance at the gene without a huge outlay of cash.
 
Clay Davenport said:
I have on fairly rare occasions seen 33% and 25% hets offered for sale. Strictly mathematically speaking I suppose that is an accurate description, but I always viewed the practice as semi unethical when using it to justify even a slightly higher price tag.
The reason is once you drop below 50% het, you are no longer even sure if the gene was involved in the breeding at all. So while they are mathematically 25% het, that doesn't mean much at all.
With 50% and 66% hets you are guaranteed a chance that you might hit the gene because you know that one or both of the parents were indeed carrying it.
Perhaps that only makes sense to me, but that's the way I have always viewed it.



These days 50 and 66% pos hets are at best priced just a few dollars higher than normals if any at all. I mean you might see a normal female ball for $40 and a 66% pos het for 50.
In the past though, during the height of the ball python craze there were instances where pos hets were priced significantly higher than normals and it was an accepted practice.
For instance the genetic stripe gene. When they first entered the market, i fmy memory serves, visuals were priced at $20K and 100% hets were 7 or 8K each.
50% het females were priced at $500 the first couple of years. This was 20 times the cost of a normal female hatchling, but given the exorbitant price of the visuals and hets, it was still a good way for a gambler to get a chance at the gene without a huge outlay of cash.
Click to expand...

:iagree:
 
Very good point Clay.

Buying a number of possible hets for prices just higher than normals almost guarantees you getting a homozygous animal out of breeding them (or at least increases the chances significantly).

From my perspective, I would hate to sell an normal at a higher price because it is possibly het for a trait. Although, I certainly see the side of the argument that you can charge more for the possibility that the animal carries the genes.

Excellent posts thus far, I really like hearing everyone's thoughts on the issue.

Kyle
 
Very well presented, it is tough to tell what is passed through on a breeding!! As Craig said

"i guess the thing is if you can get say 6 possible hets for the same price as a 100%het and do not mind doing the leg work to prove them out then it would be worth it but you definitely have to know what the parents backround is before you buy."

It is important to know about the parents I agree 100% on that!!! Good post Kyle it was great to read all that was brought up!
 
I completely agree. I don't like to see a price increase of anything, period, for the possibility of getting a gene. I definitely have no problem paying a considerable increase in price for something that has been proven out as het. Seeing as the breeder, spent the time and leg work to ensure I know what I am receiving. But for the chance?!

Sorry if this comes off rude. But, I am taking quantitative breeding and even a 50% het can actually produce a .0025-7% (these values are obviously hypothetical) chance per egg of you getting the animal you are searching for. Depending on the number of animals per clutch. So excuse me if I don't feel that an increase in price is worthy of such minuscule statistical probability of return.

I don't mean to offend, but if you want to make a little more money on an animal, put a little more effort into the "product" you are selling. Prove something out for me and I might pay 500% more than a normal animal. After all, hets are the building blocks of my breeding projects. But receive more money for a "flip of the coin," I think not.

Just my .02...

P.S.
Let the stones fly if you wish... (just keep it above the waist)
 
first off i am not talking about a 500% increase in price but going from say $30 to $50 for a possible het is not unreasonable i had to do the leg work to prove out mine. if you want to get into simple recessive morphs and start with cheaper hets than 100% hets then you should have to do the leg work just like the rest of us have i started with 1.3 het for albino took 3 years to raise and breed them to prove out if there were not so many lazy people in this industry and they did it them selfs we would not be in the industry down slide we are in. why is it wrong to charge a little more for a possible het than a norm you have in most cases a 50% chance of producing a snake sometimes worth ten times what you paid for the hets. alls i have to say is do your home work before you buy and happy herping
 
I was saying that I would be happy to pay for the hard work of a breeder that took the time to prove something to me. I just don't see how I should have to pay more for an animal that has a reasonable chance of just being normal.

If I purchase a possible het for $60 and a normal goes for $40. And, I take the time to prove out the animal, yet, to my dismay, it proves to be normal. I was taken for $20. Adversely, if the breeder proves it to be truly heterozygous for the trait, I would happily have paid (in this hypothetical instance) $200. As, like you said, I now have the ability to possibly breed for an animal that is worth far more money.

Though, I see your point as well. As in the same instance, if the $40 animal is truly het, the breeder got taken for $160 (since I would have paid $200 for the 100% het). But, that is fair game to me, as that individual didn't choose to do the work.

And, I am not lazy about breeding. I just don't believe in marketing tactics. Like I said, if you do the work, I shall in deed happily reward you. But if you choose not to go that extra mile, I don't see why you deserve to get a percentage of that "reward."
 
as always thre are exceptions you could buy 100% het and it not prove out so i would rather take my chances with 1.6 possible than some one stating they are 100% getting more bang for my buck. as we all know there are a lot of people out there that will label there animals this or that. it all comes down to doing your research being informed about what you are looking for and who you buy from.
 
gsrept said:
as always thre are exceptions you could buy 100% het and it not prove out
Click to expand...

I don't see how this could happen though. If it is TRULY a 100% het, then with enough breedings it WILL prove out no question there. However, 50% hets may prove out in the first breeding OR may take 3 clutches to prove out, if at all, depending on how many eggs you have.

I also see both sides of the argument for charging more. I generally will not pay more for a possible het. I also would rather invest just a little bit more and get the guarantee that the genes are there with a 100% het. The problem with possible hets is that if they don't prove out, then I have a normal but at a higher price. I don't see the seller getting "taken" in the instance where the possible het DOES prove out to be het. As has been mentioned, the work to prove out the individual is on me not them. I have to invest much more time and have equal chances of the animal proving out as to being normal.

Again, I like the opinions here. It is interesting to hear different thoughts on the same issue.
 
i agree but what i am basically saying is that you could get a 100% het or told that it is and it is not basically being sold a normal thats why for all the newbies i saydo your research there are a lot of low lifes out there. and luckly i happen to live near the evil morph god aka(nerd) and cv exotics so i can always see the parents.hope every one has a productive year the wait is killing me.
 
I agree 100% Craig. That's why I particularly love this site. The BOI is an immensely useful tool in discovering the true business practices of particular people.

What ever happened to the good ole days of "door to door" salesmen?! They would sell you something, let you have it for basically a deposit. Then return weekly to collect money! My GOD! People used to trust each-other?!

Sorry about the rant. I just think people should be held accountable to their word. After all, if you don't even have the backing of your word... What do you have?
 
All comes down to the all mighty dollar. When anything is brought up it is about money.... I don't like that as much.

If I sell a 100% het albino male for 30 bucks..... I sell CBB normals for 20 to 30 bucks..... But I sell it as a normal. Who cares. I am not saying it is more then it is. I have thrown in Poss Het clowns, Het Pieds, Het Albino, and Het Ghosts in with my normals. They were all males. Now I will have all them kids and adults that buy normals off me raising them to find out. I will give you a hint. Ask me and I will tell you if they are or they are not lol.
 
ya its funny that we have say one dog but in this hobby it can get out of control quick i started with a pair of orange ghosts now have over 30 balls. and i keep a small collection of bcc 2.3 have had two of the bcc for over 12 years this is the first year i am breeding them and proving out my het for albino pair. but fortunatly any surplus i will be able to barter with a lcoal breeder for of course more balls so what ever i get for babies i end up spending prob. doulbe that it crazy. hobby out of control.
 
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