Bad Guy GeckosEtc Line Strength

Below are the emails from the start of this transaction. I will post all the emails that were exchanged starting from the day the animals arrived to him. The basics of the transaction was 4 geckos for a total of $850. I will bold some portions that I feel are important:

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From: Jarrod Harvey <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Targeted Geckos - Jarrod Harvey

Steve...they made it, and they look awesome. My son and I just marveled at the male...the biggest we had ever held prior was maybe 60 grams...he is a beast. I can't wait to see what these guys produce.

Thanks, Jarrod

Kill Tenure / Try Treason
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From: Steve Sykes <[email protected]>
To: Jarrod Harvey <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 1, 2011 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Targeted Geckos - Jarrod Harvey

Hi Jarrod,

Glad to hear they arrived to you in good shape and you are happy with them! Thanks again!

Regards,

Steve
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From: Jarrod Harvey <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 4:49 PM
Subject: My Super Giant Male...

Steve,

The male (SGHAM1) has developed what appears to be very swollen hemipenes with a small sore on one side. I started introducing the females a few weeks ago. I have not observed any copulation, but who knows. Have you ever seen this? I am very concerned.

Thanks, Jarrod
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From: Jarrod Harvey <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 5:16 PM
Subject: Fw: My Super Giant Male...

Steve,

I have attached a pic of his affliction. I know this has nothing to do with you or the health of the geckos at arrival...they were perfect. I am wondering if the first breeding might have something to do with it. Any words you have would be appreciated.

The swelling is not symmetrical, and I am assuming the sore is from contact with the ground. The bulge is darkening in color, and since I have been trying to allow them to acclimate and not mess with them much, I don't really know how long this has been developing. I have never seen this in a leopard before, and am somewhat freaking out. I assured my buddy of the hardiness of this species, and sure enough, the first one I put any money into has an issue. Unbelievable. I will do research tonight and try to find a local vet tomorrow. I hope I am overreacting, but it looks bad to me.

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From: Steve Sykes <[email protected]>
To: Jarrod Harvey <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: My Super Giant Male...

Hi Jarrod,

Yes, you need to see a vet. That is likely a bacterial infection in or around the hemipene. There is pus in there that needs to be cleaned out by the vet, and the vet will likely prescribe antibiotics. I think it will be fine in the end, but you need to see the vet ASAP. Keep me updated on what the vet says.

Regards,

Steve

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From: Jarrod Harvey <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: My Super Giant Male...

I lost him today, about thee hours after his first dose of baytril. Sucks

Kill Tenure / Try Treason

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From: Steve Sykes <[email protected]>
To: Jarrod Harvey <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: My Super Giant Male...

Hi Jarrod,

That sucks! I am very sorry to hear that. It sounds like he got an infection in the hemipene or the area around it, and unfortunately it wasn't discovered until it got to an advanced stage.

Regards,

Steve
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From: Jarrod Harvey <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 5:19 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: My Super Giant Male...

Yeah...a major lesson learned. I picked up a nice BEE male this weekend at the swap here in town. Not even sure what BEE stands for, but two of them are enigma and eclipse. Saw an emerine that i wanted bad...but it was a female.

I'm prayin that Ed popped the super snow girl before he expired.

Thanks man...take care

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From: Jarrod Harvey <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: My Super Giant Male...

Steve,

By the way, keep me in mind for some afghan blood. I'll be looking for a bigger male with lots of black on his head and little yellow or orange throughout.

Thanks

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From: Jarrod Harvey <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 7:17 AM
Subject: Merry Christmas...the proposition.

Steve,

This is Jarrod Harvey, the guy who had the super giant male die of a hemipene infection a while back. I have acquired a BEE male, but am not sure I want to go that route. I want giant genetics at the onset of this project....so here is a friendly holiday propostion...no pressure.

I have been making snakeskin bracelets for about eight months now, and my stuff is pretty sweet. Here is a link so you can see some of my stuff:

www.facebook.com/toadshop

So here is the deal: I have two Angolan python skins that I will be working with (Angolans have "beaded" scales, the only python, and one of the only snakes period, that does).

This pair of CB snakes (approx 2K each) somehow died from resp infections, and I was lucky enough to get them. No one on earth is selling Angolan python leather work that I know of...after all...who skins a $2000 snake? Do you have any male giant I could get into for a few hundred bucks? That is about what I'll sell the bracelets for, and would you be interested in trading for the baddest leather bracelet in town?

I need giant blood bad, man...and it's Christmas!!! No pressure though...ha.

Happy Holidays, man.

Regards,
Jarrod Harvey

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From: Steve Sykes <[email protected]>
To: Jarrod Harvey <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 7:35 AM
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas...the proposition.

Hi Jarrod,

Merry Christmas to you and your family too!

I'm sorry I am not interested in the leatherwork for trade. It looks very cool, but neither my wife and I are bracelet people.

Regards,

Steve
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From: Jarrod <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, June 8, 2012 11:53 PM
Subject:

Hi steve,
Ever had a gecko that just didnt seem to have good depth perception, and bit 1/4" shy of her prey all the time? The super snow female I bought from you has always been that way. Actually, I just lost her. Dont know what to say other than she just failed to thrive. Got skinnier and skinnier, then died.
The snow female is fine, but the bold stripe female isn't a great eater either. I have other geckos, so it isn't husbandry. Out of $850 in four lizards, I have two $125 females left, you may remember the $550 super giant male died two months after I bought him from an infected hemipene.
I don't feel I'm going out on a limb to say some of your lines need some out crossing.
Best regards,
Jarrod Harvey

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From: Jarrod Harvey <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 8:53 AM
Subject: A Request

Steve,

This will be the last time I email you about this, I promise. It has been right at a year since I bought my group, and I don’t know what the heck is going on with the geckos. I am at the point where I am ready to start inquiring on the forums if anyone else has experienced anything similar. If all that has gone wrong with these four geckos is my fault, I’d like to know. I have other leopards from swap meets and craigslist that are breeding, eating, and doing fine in the same room on the same sand. I am done with thinking it is my husbandry. I don’t want to be a jerk, but I spent $850 on nothing. That may not be a lot of money to you, but it is to me, especially spent on lizards. My wife thought I was freaking insane, and a friend of mine bankrolled the whole thing. This is one of the hardiest lizards in the world, and all four that I got from your lines have failed to thrive. You seem like a really good guy, and I do not want any bad blood with anyone.

The big male’s infected hemipene I can chalk up to a freak incident, I guess...but it is still weird. But all three females just wasting away, one that couldn’t accurately grab her food, one that just never ate well, and the third started as a juggernaut, then bred, laid infertile eggs, and began to follow her conspecifics down the exact same path that had already killed one, and is in the process of killing a second. And when she does eat, she mouths the food and spits it out as if it hurts her to swallow. Every one of them has had some sort of issues. The bold stripe female is emaciating now (she has been off food for awhile). I doubt she’ll live through August. The other female, a huge mack snow, was an absolute eating machine right up until she was introduced to a male. Then she stopped eating and began to lay infertile eggs and lose weight. This was also the point where the super snow female and began to fall away. It is like being with a male stresses these females to the point where they’d rather die than eat.

Look, I’m not a vindictive or mean guy, but I have been keeping herps since 1974, and have been an animal behavioralist all my life. I want some super giant genes, as I did before, but am not really interested in your females. If you will give me a great deal on a super giant male (other than being a non-albino...I will not be picky) that I can outcross to my females, I would really appreciate it.

I understand this has to be a weird position for you because you don’t know me from Adam, and this situation has been completely out of your control. But just know that this is my final correspondence with you on the matter. From this point, as I attempt to save the last female, my concerns, inquiries, and questions will go to the forum communities. I will not go out of my way to indicate you, but it is sure to come up. Your reputation is solid, so I don’t believe I can damage it, nor do I have any desire to. You obviously know what you are doing, I just can't make any sense out of this.

I just feel that I am not being unreasonable in requesting a special deal on a nice SG male. I have been to the website, and I don't see many non-albinos available. I will accept a juvenile too, as long as both parents are SG.

My guess is that some captive lines are simply weak from line breeding, and that my experience is just one indication of this. My guess is that I will find more people that have had similar experiences...just my guess, though. I would just really appreciate another super giant male so I can get on with what I started. I have since acquired many other females. I just need the SG genes.

Just let me know what, if anything, you are willing to do.

Thank you, and Best Regards,

Jarrod Harvey

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From: Steve Sykes <[email protected]>
To: Jarrod Harvey <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: A Request

Hi Jarrod,

Have you taken any of these geckos to a vet to get fecal exams done and figure out what the problem is? The events you describe with the huge mack snow female is classic of a parasite issue. When she was living alone she was doing well, but when introduced to a male she goes downhill and doesn't want to eat. Male geckos can be asymptomatic with parasites (crypto is the specific one that comes to mind), and pass it on to any females that are housed with them and the females go downhill once they start dealing with the stresses of breeding and laying eggs. Did she or any of your other geckos puke up food at all? Or have any of them puked up bundles of shed skin? These are more indications of the changes that take place in the lining of the digestive system due to crypto that cause them to not be able to digest their food or sheds.

I am really sorry to hear that you have had problems with these. I am willing to help you out with a male. However, my non albinos are really limited. I am not at my facility today, but I will be there tomorrow and can take a look. I am only interested in sending a 2012, for the reason that it will have the best chance of adjusting to the new cage quickly and doing fine since it is young. Older geckos can take longer adjusting to new environments. I have a 30 day health guarantee on my geckos, always have, and always will, but I can't guarantee their health for life. When they get introduced to other geckos, that may introduce parasites to them it is all out of my control.

However, with the concern that you may have a parasite issue in your collection, I am hesitant to send you a new one until that is resolved. If you have a parasite in your collection it is very easy to spread it around unintentionally. I wish that when a gecko was infected with a parasite it showed signs and died quickly, unfortunately that is not the case. They can live for a long time with the parasite living quietly in them (all the while shedding parasite eggs that infect other animals). Other animals that pick up the parasite from an asymptomatic animal usually react more quickly because of other stressors like breeding and egg laying and they go downhill fast. Meanwhile, the unaware gecko keeper is doing work in various cages, holding an infected gecko and holding another, etc., and that spreads the microscopic bits of infected poop between animals, spreading it around. The best way to manage this is to use plastic disposable gloves when working in one cage and then in another so you don't spread anything between cages. Without doing fecal exams, your collection should be in lockdown with these precautions. If you only had geckos from me I wouldn't be concerned. But parasites are quite common out there. I have gone to some extreme lengths in my collection to keep parasites out, and I believe our facility is completely free of all parasites (including worms, which are super common in most geckos). We have even gone to the precaution that all newly purchased geckos are kept at our house only, and bred there. They never go to our facility because even after a quarantine period you can't be 100% sure they are parasite free, they may not be showing signs yet even after a 6 month quarantine. But, their babies hatch free of parasites, and we wash the babies at our house and take them to our facility. The only animals that are housed at our facility are those that were brought to the facility as babies from the breeders at our house, or ones that hatched at our facility. With these precautions, we have made it so that the parasites can't be introduced into our facility. I have seen my share of parasites in animals purchased from other people (housed at our house), but we haven't ever found any parasites in geckos in our facility.

My geckos are not resistant to crypto or any other parasites, so I could send you a good 2012 male, but if he catches something that is in your collection he will succumb to it as well.

There are couple ways to test for parasites. You can do fecal exams for worms, protozoans, and crpyto. Those are all different tests (fecal float, direct smear, and PCR or acid fast stain - respectively for each of the types of parasites listed). Another way to do it, and it may give you better results is to sacrifice the sickest one for a complete necropsy. With this they would take samples of the tissues and look for specific manifestation of parasite in the organ tissues. The gecko may not be shedding crypyo eggs, or the fecal test could be inconclusive, but if they can see crypto infecting the lining the digestive system it is clear what the problem is.

Regards,

Steve

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From: Jarrod Harvey <[email protected]>
To: Steve Sykes <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: A Request

no puked up food that I have noticed, but bundles of skin I have. I had an eclipse male, that I have since sold, that is probably the problem. SOB...I never even thought to assume parasitation in cb geckos.

Thanks Steve. I'll look into treatment for crypto.

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From: Jarrod Harvey <[email protected]>
To: Steve Sykes <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: A Request

Sorry, by the way.

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From: Steve Sykes <[email protected]>
To: Jarrod Harvey <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 7:14 AM
Subject: Re: A Request
Hi Jarrod,

Puked skin bundles is a near certain confirmation of a crypto problem. Unfortunately there is no treatment for crypto. There are medications that can help control it and extend the life of the gecko, but it is extremely difficult (or impossible) to knock it out. Your best bet would be to either euthanize any sick geckos and start over, or breed them and keep the babies in a totally separate area and then euthanize the parents. You should use plastic food service gloves when handling each gecko, and change gloves between cages so you don't spread it around any more. If you do euthanize just the sick ones (and not everyone is looking ill), you should keep the other ones you have now in a totally separate area and keep them on lockdown. Just because they aren't showing signs now doesn't mean that they don't have a low grade infection that could turn into full blown infection later on. Babies from cryto infected parents hatch free of crypto, and they pick it up by eating the infected poop of another gecko.

The cages and cage equipment you have either need to be thrown away, or sterilized. Crypto dies at 140F, so the method I like to use to ensure equipment is sterilized is to get a big pot of 180F water and put boxes and equipment in there for 10 minutes. Chemical sterlization can also work, but it has to be an ammonia based product such as roccal.

Regards,

Steve

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From: Jarrod Harvey <[email protected]>
To: Steve Sykes <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: A Request

I looked at my "bundles" closely last night, and I believe them to be pieces of skin that have been rolled up in the wet hides as the lizards moved around. They don't appear to be actually regurgitated. I'll get a fecal done and see what's going on.

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Note: I don't know about Jarrod's geckos, but my geckos usually eat all their shed skin. Even if there is a little that they don't eat, there is not enough left behind to be "rolled up in the wet hides as the lizards moved around".

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From: Jarrod Harvey <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, August 8, 2012 7:12 AM
Subject: Fecals
Hi Steve,

I took fecal samples from the two sickest females this morning to my vet.

Both of the females that I had almost written off (I came real, real close to freezing one of them) have started eating in the last couple of days. The skinniest female (the bold stripe) ate an almost full grown dubia roach last night, and I absolutely could not believe it. Seeing that bag of bones attack that roach made my day...hell, it made my month.

So here's the deal: Although I would accept one if you did, I do not expect you to send me a gecko. I'll leave that up to you. I understand fully that you cannot be responsible for geckos once they are out of your care, and a 30 day guarantee is perfectly reasonable. I went back through the emails this morning, and my super giant male was dead 64 days from the date of receipt.

I have a feeling these fecals are gonna come back clean. I think these girls were just very stressed by the act of breeding in their first year, but who knows. The big mack snow laid nine infertile eggs this season, and the bold stripe laid none. I know the male tried to breed her, so she must have been very stressed.

In any event, it appears they may be on the mend.

Regards,
Jarrod

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Note: Jarrod did wait a 3 full weeks from the time he said he would go to the vet to the time he actually took the fecal sample in.
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From: Jarrod Harvey <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, August 8, 2012 12:29 PM
Subject: Fw: Fecals
Steve,

She found some pinworms, but said the level was low, and she didn't even know if she would treat for them. From everything I read about pinworms today, they are very common, and I'm not sure I can see them causing the affliction that these three females went through. And now the two that lived are eating again without treatment, so I'm essentially at a loss.

So don't worry about anything, I'll just write this off as a loss.

Regards,
Jarrod

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And August 8, 2012 was the last time I heard from him until April 5, 2013.

That top email that you posted Steve, that is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read. Demanding much Jarrod? Demanding with a side of politeness at that. Gotta love that too.

This thread is weak Jarrod. You couldn't hold a breeder responsible even if (HUGE IF, maybe even impossible) you could prove the genetics at play were actually weak...without being able to prove the breeder knew before hand, you still wouldn't have a leg to stand on. When working with live animals these things happen. Losing any critter is tough, expensive or not. That still doesn't change the fact that we are all taking a risk with any animal we keep.
If you can't prove that the genetics are actually flawed, and you can't prove the breeder had prior knowledge of any issues, there is nothing you can do. I personally do not feel you have come even close to proving either points here.

The best bet would have been letting Steve know about the deaths, and taking any offer he might have been giving you. Him offering ANYTHING is going above and beyond already. Like I was saying above about every animal being a risk...I have seen plenty of breeders who had no obligation to give anything to a customer after they lose an animal, for any reason, yet they feel some compassion so they try to offer something.

Steve imo, has went above and beyond already, with Eve's post, I'm ready to write this one off as a joke.

I don't know you Steve, but keep up the good work buddy.

I found the sticky post about people being afraid to post here because of the attacks from the peanut gallery interesting. Good thing I couldn't care less.

You all can rationalize this five ways from Sunday. You can attack my knowledge, you can attack my experience with herps, you can say whatever you want. Just because you've never heard of someone doesn't mean that person hasn't forgotten more nomenclature than you'll ever know.

Eve, I didn't name you, but tried to leave you out of this. I find it interesting that you jump on the attack Jarrod bandwagon, even though I could have just used your name, as if I'm some bitter loser just trying to hurt Steve Sykes. I was very polite to you, and both of our SG males, when stressed, prolapsed a hemipene. That, to me, is significant.

The bottom line is that in the effort to make the most striking geckos money can buy, lines are getting thin. If you guys think I am the only person that believes this, or has seen signs of this, you are fools.

Giant breeders have no time to observe these animals on an individual basis. Animals with genetic "ticks" are being sold. They spend the first year or so of their lives in a perfect environment, and then are ripped out of it. Some of them don't adapt quickly or well to this.

I had serious issues with all four of Steve's geckos, while $30 swap meet geckos thrived all around them.

I can see what is going to go on here, and am not interested in listening to all of you harp on me about this or that. I'm glad the correspondance has been posted, that way anyone who wants to can read it. You'll see that I was concerned early on, and that no real effort to appease me was made that didn't involve more money. I was polite, patient, and FORGIVING, considering all the money I blew.

I had no expectation of saving this deal. Getting this posted somewhere was my goal. So thanks to Eve for coming forward. Mission accomplished. Now, unless this gets removed, it will be here for anyone that needs it.

smashtoad said:

I found the sticky post about people being afraid to post here because of the attacks from the peanut gallery interesting. Good thing I couldn't care less.

You all can rationalize this five ways from Sunday. You can attack my knowledge, you can attack my experience with herps, you can say whatever you want. Just because you've never heard of someone doesn't mean that person hasn't forgotten more nomenclature than you'll ever know.

Eve, I didn't name you, but tried to leave you out of this. I find it interesting that you jump on the attack Jarrod bandwagon, even though I could have just used your name, as if I'm some bitter loser just trying to hurt Steve Sykes. I was very polite to you, and both of our SG males, when stressed, prolapsed a hemipene. That, to me, is significant.

The bottom line is that in the effort to make the most striking geckos money can buy, lines are getting thin. If you guys think I am the only person that believes this, or has seen signs of this, you are fools.

Giant breeders have no time to observe these animals on an individual basis. Animals with genetic "ticks" are being sold. They spend the first year or so of their lives in a perfect environment, and then are ripped out of it. Some of them don't adapt quickly or well to this.

I had serious issues with all four of Steve's geckos, while $30 swap meet geckos thrived all around them.

I can see what is going to go on here, and am not interested in listening to all of you harp on me about this or that. I'm glad the correspondance has been posted, that way anyone who wants to can read it. You'll see that I was concerned early on, and that no real effort to appease me was made that didn't involve more money. I was polite, patient, and FORGIVING, considering all the money I blew.

I had no expectation of saving this deal. Getting this posted somewhere was my goal. So thanks to Eve for coming forward. Mission accomplished. Now, unless this gets removed, it will be here for anyone that needs it.

Click to expand...

The "killing the messenger" thread doesn't even come close to what is happening here. You have been acting extremely putout from the beginning of anyone asking you basic questions. You keep harping on your many years of experience but evidence of your knowledge of the animals being discussed here is lacking. Actually, it's just the opposite by your own emails.

Those questions are there not to attack you but maybe bring to your attention something you are missing (such as crypto and other parasites)and have not considered.

So we aren't suppose to question you on anything? Someone who has no knowledge about some very basic things to be knowledgeable about?

So nothing about your husbandry or the $30 dollar geckos from your flea market shopping and Craigslist purchases could be affecting your animals?

Nobody here is allowed to dive into your superior skills and figure out if there is any alternative to "it must be his geckos" theory?

That isn't what the thread about "killing the messengers" is about.

It isn't about not letting people ask questions. This isn't your way or else shut up here.

So where are the people that will be coming forward? You wanted to if somebody else is having problems, I'm sure they will be here, if any.

The only other person that you found disagrees strongly with your conclusions. There's no evidence here to support your accusations at this time.

What is in evidence is you resulted to blackmail after a year after associating someone else (very flimsy) to your experiences.

Steve,

This will be the last time I email you about this, I promise. It has been right at a year since I bought my group, and I don’t know what the heck is going on with the geckos. I am at the point where I am ready to start inquiring on the forums if anyone else has experienced anything similar. If all that has gone wrong with these four geckos is my fault, I’d like to know. I have other leopards from swap meets and craigslist that are breeding, eating, and doing fine in the same room on the same sand. I am done with thinking it is my husbandry. I don’t want to be a jerk, but I spent $850 on nothing. That may not be a lot of money to you, but it is to me, especially spent on lizards. My wife thought I was freaking insane, and a friend of mine bankrolled the whole thing. This is one of the hardiest lizards in the world, and all four that I got from your lines have failed to thrive. You seem like a really good guy, and I do not want any bad blood with anyone.

The big male’s infected hemipene I can chalk up to a freak incident, I guess...but it is still weird. But all three females just wasting away, one that couldn’t accurately grab her food, one that just never ate well, and the third started as a juggernaut, then bred, laid infertile eggs, and began to follow her conspecifics down the exact same path that had already killed one, and is in the process of killing a second. And when she does eat, she mouths the food and spits it out as if it hurts her to swallow. Every one of them has had some sort of issues. The bold stripe female is emaciating now (she has been off food for awhile). I doubt she’ll live through August. The other female, a huge mack snow, was an absolute eating machine right up until she was introduced to a male. Then she stopped eating and began to lay infertile eggs and lose weight. This was also the point where the super snow female and began to fall away. It is like being with a male stresses these females to the point where they’d rather die than eat.

Look, I’m not a vindictive or mean guy, but I have been keeping herps since 1974, and have been an animal behavioralist all my life. I want some super giant genes, as I did before, but am not really interested in your females. If you will give me a great deal on a super giant male (other than being a non-albino...I will not be picky) that I can outcross to my females, I would really appreciate it.

I understand this has to be a weird position for you because you don’t know me from Adam, and this situation has been completely out of your control. But just know that this is my final correspondence with you on the matter. From this point, as I attempt to save the last female, my concerns, inquiries, and questions will go to the forum communities. I will not go out of my way to indicate you, but it is sure to come up. Your reputation is solid, so I don’t believe I can damage it, nor do I have any desire to. You obviously know what you are doing, I just can't make any sense out of this.

I just feel that I am not being unreasonable in requesting a special deal on a nice SG male. I have been to the website, and I don't see many non-albinos available. I will accept a juvenile too, as long as both parents are SG.

My guess is that some captive lines are simply weak from line breeding, and that my experience is just one indication of this. My guess is that I will find more people that have had similar experiences...just my guess, though. I would just really appreciate another super giant male so I can get on with what I started. I have since acquired many other females. I just need the SG genes.

Click to expand...

My guess, my guess....

Summation

They are all ready to die what are you going to do for me?

Steve's reply

Hi Jarrod,

Have you taken any of these geckos to a vet to get fecal exams done and figure out what the problem is? The events you describe with the huge mack snow female is classic of a parasite issue. When she was living alone she was doing well, but when introduced to a male she goes downhill and doesn't want to eat. Male geckos can be asymptomatic with parasites (crypto is the specific one that comes to mind), and pass it on to any females that are housed with them and the females go downhill once they start dealing with the stresses of breeding and laying eggs. Did she or any of your other geckos puke up food at all? Or have any of them puked up bundles of shed skin? These are more indications of the changes that take place in the lining of the digestive system due to crypto that cause them to not be able to digest their food or sheds.

I am really sorry to hear that you have had problems with these. I am willing to help you out with a male. However, my non albinos are really limited. I am not at my facility today, but I will be there tomorrow and can take a look. I am only interested in sending a 2012, for the reason that it will have the best chance of adjusting to the new cage quickly and doing fine since it is young. Older geckos can take longer adjusting to new environments. I have a 30 day health guarantee on my geckos, always have, and always will, but I can't guarantee their health for life. When they get introduced to other geckos, that may introduce parasites to them it is all out of my control.

However, with the concern that you may have a parasite issue in your collection, I am hesitant to send you a new one until that is resolved. If you have a parasite in your collection it is very easy to spread it around unintentionally. I wish that when a gecko was infected with a parasite it showed signs and died quickly, unfortunately that is not the case. They can live for a long time with the parasite living quietly in them (all the while shedding parasite eggs that infect other animals). Other animals that pick up the parasite from an asymptomatic animal usually react more quickly because of other stressors like breeding and egg laying and they go downhill fast. Meanwhile, the unaware gecko keeper is doing work in various cages, holding an infected gecko and holding another, etc., and that spreads the microscopic bits of infected poop between animals, spreading it around. The best way to manage this is to use plastic disposable gloves when working in one cage and then in another so you don't spread anything between cages. Without doing fecal exams, your collection should be in lockdown with these precautions. If you only had geckos from me I wouldn't be concerned. But parasites are quite common out there. I have gone to some extreme lengths in my collection to keep parasites out, and I believe our facility is completely free of all parasites (including worms, which are super common in most geckos). We have even gone to the precaution that all newly purchased geckos are kept at our house only, and bred there. They never go to our facility because even after a quarantine period you can't be 100% sure they are parasite free, they may not be showing signs yet even after a 6 month quarantine. But, their babies hatch free of parasites, and we wash the babies at our house and take them to our facility. The only animals that are housed at our facility are those that were brought to the facility as babies from the breeders at our house, or ones that hatched at our facility. With these precautions, we have made it so that the parasites can't be introduced into our facility. I have seen my share of parasites in animals purchased from other people (housed at our house), but we haven't ever found any parasites in geckos in our facility.

My geckos are not resistant to crypto or any other parasites, so I could send you a good 2012 male, but if he catches something that is in your collection he will succumb to it as well.

There are couple ways to test for parasites. You can do fecal exams for worms, protozoans, and crpyto. Those are all different tests (fecal float, direct smear, and PCR or acid fast stain - respectively for each of the types of parasites listed). Another way to do it, and it may give you better results is to sacrifice the sickest one for a complete necropsy. With this they would take samples of the tissues and look for specific manifestation of parasite in the organ tissues. The gecko may not be shedding crypyo eggs, or the fecal test could be inconclusive, but if they can see crypto infecting the lining the digestive system it is clear what the problem is.

Regards,

Steve

Click to expand...

Your reply.

Crypto, let me find out about that

"Hmm, no cure burn everything to the ground and start over. Yikes..."

Two weeks later....

My geckos are thriving. They aren't on deaths door.

See you Steve, You need do nothing for me............ Out of here.


Almost a year later.

Hmm, her gecko was egg bound and my gecko had a depth perception problem. Hey that's pretty much the same problem. It must be Steve's lines.

The super snow female consistently snapped at prey 1/4" short, lost interest in food, and slowly died. Eve's died egg bound, apparently.

You think this was all husbandry issues on her end, too? That is the way I was made to feel. Had nothing to do with weak genetics or anything like that, right? I really wish I could get over this, and just let it go...but now I am pissed all over again.

Look, this has went on and on and on and I am weary. I spent $850 of my buddies money with you and have two $100 females to show for it, both of which I almost lost. You insinuated they had worms. The fecals were negative. Now one keeps throwing infertile eggs, and the other is dropping slugs. At least they're laying something this year.

I'm gonna make this simple. I am not a vindictive person, and I apologize for how this sounds and seems, but I would like a nice super giant male or female sent to me, or I am just going to share my story on the forums. Your reputation is pretty solid, and I have no desire to hurt you...I just want what is fair. I believe this to be fair.

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"I would like a nice super giant male or female sent to me, or I am just going to share my story on the forums."

There is a problem with his lines but you want another of his females or your going to tell everyone.

Boy, that sounds really good. So you came here to warn everyone about his lines and aren't expecting anything?

Unless, ........................ He gives you one for free then nobody really needs to know.

Your just a top notch kind of guy and this above would be my guess, if were going to be posting about someone based on guesses.

I'm not in this hobby to attack anyone, I try and put most of my time into caring for my critters, rather than posting / putting any one down. Been doing this since the mid 90's with no problems with anyone. I do not wish to do that now either in anyway.
I just wanted it known I did not accuse Steve of anything, or find fault with all the geckos I purchased from him.

Jarrod, I just mentioned briefly to you that I too had a male that prolasped, but that with Steves help he did just fine. And to clarify my male was NOT a giant, or did it have giant genes in any way, but was a normal sized mack Snow Raptor ( gorgeous). My super snow female was here for a couple years or so before she was eggbound.
So just wanted to say although we had a converstion, in all fairness I never implied my geckos were inferior or that I had any problem with Steve. I had no problem with you either until you seemed to make it as though I too was dis -satified or had BAD thoughts of my purchases from Gecko Etc... or a long time friend.
That made me feel quite badly having a friend think I had a problem with them, or their animals ,and could not come to them.. but put them down behind their back. I would feel quite lousey if someone did that to me.

smashtoad said:

I had no expectation of saving this deal. Getting this posted somewhere was my goal. So thanks to Eve for coming forward. Mission accomplished. Now, unless this gets removed, it will be here for anyone that needs it.

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I'm glad you're so easily satisfied, because most people who read this thread are not going to agree with your perspective on things.

If anything this thread will serve as a warning to future sellers that you are an extremely difficult and self righteous customer that will post bad guy threads about them at any given time in the future if their animals aren't 100% healthy forever.

Because obviously you know so much about gecko husbandry that anything bad that happens will NEVER be your fault.

SteveGeckosEtc said:

email from Jarrod:

From: Jarrod Harvey
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, April 5, 2013 9:01 AM
Subject: Round Three...Hopefully the Final Round.

I am not a vindictive person, and I apologize for how this sounds and seems, but I would like a nice super giant male or female sent to me, or I am just going to share my story on the forums.

Click to expand...

ahh the smell of extortion in the morning. classy.

smashtoad said:

Now, unless this gets removed, it will be here for anyone that needs it.

Click to expand...

BOI threads are not removed (except for very specific rule violations)

pathetic

I'm not much of a lizards guy & wasn't even born till a few years after 1974 but was curious. The e-mail that was sent to Steve says "I have been trying to allow them to acclimate and not mess with them much" only a paragraph after saying "I am wondering if the first breeding might have something to do with it". I know it's not the smartest thing do since the animal is not be quarantined but wouldn't throwing an animal in with another to breed right after being shipping enough to cause it stress possibly explaining the lack of desire the animal had to eat & thrive?

Durante said:

I know it's not the smartest thing do since the animal is not be quarantined but wouldn't throwing an animal in with another to breed right after being shipping enough to cause it stress possibly explaining the lack of desire the animal had to eat & thrive?

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Whatever went wrong, it wouldn't seem that lack of acclimation played any part in it. Assuming that his statements in the emails are honest.

According to the timeline that was presented in the emails that Steve posted, it appears that he allowed the male to settle in for all of July, before introducing any females.

Note the dates.

From: Jarrod Harvey <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Targeted Geckos - Jarrod Harvey

Steve...they made it, and they look awesome. My son and I just marveled at the male...the biggest we had ever held prior was maybe 60 grams...he is a beast. I can't wait to see what these guys produce.

Thanks, Jarrod

Kill Tenure / Try Treason
__________________________________________________

From: Jarrod Harvey <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 4:49 PM
Subject: My Super Giant Male...

Steve,

The male (SGHAM1) has developed what appears to be very swollen hemipenes with a small sore on one side. I started introducing the females a few weeks ago. I have not observed any copulation, but who knows. Have you ever seen this? I am very concerned.

Thanks, Jarrod

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All of this is rather silly seeing as it was well beyond the 30 day guarantee that Steve has. The geckos were fine during that time, and just the fact that he tried to work with you at all after that much time was up shows what a great business person he really is. I don't know of any other breeder big or small that would have even bothered trying to work with you after that much time had passed.

For those of you that don't know me, I am the Admin on Geckos Unlimited forums. Jarrod also came to the GU Forums and both in a public post and in private PM chastised us for not having a BOI in place on the GU forums and also implied that we were "under the thumb" of "big named breeders". He said that we didn't have "the balls" to allow people to accuse breeders of being thieves. I of course sent him a link here and told him that I saw no reason in having a BOI type forum on GU when the herp community already BOI. It would seem a bit redundant. All of this was the first that I've even heard of this situation or Jarrod. But my point is that he showed up over on GU with a mighty big chip on his shoulder and an ax to grind with anyone that he could find. I can only imagine what a nightmare it would be trying to deal with this person on a business level and I hope that this thread serves as a warning to future prospective sellers as to what type of "entitlement" this person seems to think that they deserve.

smashtoad said:

Hi all,

Click to expand...

Hi, smashtoad.

I am an employee at GeckosEtc under Steve. I am not here at his request or even have his permission to make the following post. I have helped pick breeders for the last two breeding seasons, and carry out the daily care and breeding of the Knob-Tail geckos we maintain.

The basis of your argument is that the geckos you purchased are of sub-par genetic quality as a result of over breeding. You make a second point that we as a staff have too many animals to observe any particular animals behavior and thus are letting genetic "ticks" pass by us. Ill adress these individually

Basis:
Our super giant and giant lines are diverse to a fault. I believe Steve in his response to you mentioned we have a tough time fulfilling all of our super giant orders. The cause for this not because we lack geckos of such size but, because we have too many different blood lines crossed to both Godzilla and other super giant sized males to produce any particular giant morph in large numbers. I have a tough time believeing that we have a problem with the genetic quality of that line. Even if we only look at Godzilla offspring lines, there is no reason to believe that because godzilla is bred to a female completly unrelated to him, and then those off spring are bred to the offspring from other peoples giant gene pools that the animal you recieved has a problem with the breeding.

As for the super snows, Our Snow line might be subject to some critism, we have many breeding groups of super snow X super snow. That said, when picking these groups we take care to limit the selections in a given grouping. Males from the same project dont go with females from the same project. When we produce something like a Granite super snow, a line bred super snow, we make sure that we do not breed siblings together. Now away from individual pairings and lets look at the bigger picture, generations worth of genetic "glut" within the code. Leopard geckos are a bottle necked species at the moment with no new bloodlines leaving West Asia. There are other bloodlines that have not interacted with american stock overseas however. At GeckosETC we maintain the overwhelming majority of Eublepharis gecko species and subspecies. Because of this foreign stock we are able to breed our super snows to produce a snowX wild caught and refresh the bloodline with fresh unrelated genetics. making the chance of a serious problem with the genetic quality in any gecko minimal to nonexistant. This year i am rather certain we will be breeding afganicus genetics to further improve the quality of our animals.

I hope by shedding some light on some of our paractises you understand we take genetic quality just as importantly as we take our animals lives, which leads me to the next point

Add-on:
We have a LOT of animals, everyone i work with will agree with me on this. We also have ingraned from the very first interview onward that the safety and health of the gecko is the most important thing. Every day i work i immeditly wash my hands and put on gloves. these gloves never touch the animals or anything that has contacted an animals. over these gloves i wear a second layer of gloves that get thrown away every time i change box. As the person in charge of the knob tails i have ~400 animals that respond very poorly to stress, and stress VERY easy. I personally lay eyes on every gecko i maintain every single day i work. I can tell you which ones i have to feed 3 crickets to a day instead of 4. I am able to mark geckos to be monitored often before they show any sign of a problem. You get to know the animals personally.

But, you dont care about my knobtails, you care about our leopards. I dont do much work with our leopards ill admit, i did earlier in my career with steve but not so much anymore. I do however take care of our "special" boxes, these boxes can be special for the genetics, for an animal being beaten up, for runts, because my coworker thinks the gecko needs some extra love. These geckos are checked not only by myself daily but more than a half dozen other times by other people who see tens of thousands of leopard geckos a week. If we spend a minute in a box feeding it you can make sure we have counted all the geckos, checked for any signs of fighting or not eating, ovulation etc. We have many leopard geckos, but we DO take care of them to the upmost.

As an employee i am biased, hugely so, but at the same time as someone dealing with these animals daily like i do for someone to say i never see the geckos, and thus am unable to properly care for them, kinda strikes a nerve.

These geckos are checked not only by myself daily but more than a half dozen other times by other people who see tens of thousands of leopard geckos a week

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Emboldened text by me. I love geckos, I know geckos, I've kept them in the past.

Please explain the statement above relative to seeing tens of thousands of leopard geckos a week.

Well, crap. I did it again. Hit "post" when I wanted to preview and continue.

My question to Nathan should not be misinterpreted as confrontational.

Given the OP's presentation, timeline/email evidence/perhaps limited experience with geckos, I don't believe GeckosEtc is liable or responsible for any health issues the OP encountered. Perhaps Jarrod's limited experience with geckos led to husbandry mistakes. Perhaps he was looking for a new herp venture and, in his exuberance, got in a little over his head. Frogs & geckos aren't the same.

I've had chams, lizards & snakes that have prolapsed over the last 20 years. Prolapsed before they were ever introduced to females! It happens. I've had animals that I spent good money on that just didn't thrive. I've bred my own animals and cared for them with every ounce of love, attention & dollar bill I had; sometimes they all don't make it. It happens.

It wasn't due to genetics, it wasn't due to the seller. Back then, it may have been my inexperience & husbandry (as much as I hate to admit it).

Ya still don't come back a year later and put the blame elsewhere without some really hard-coer (friends get it ) evidence.

LauraB said:

Emboldened text by me. I love geckos, I know geckos, I've kept them in the past.

Please explain the statement above relative to seeing tens of thousands of leopard geckos a week.

Click to expand...

Hi Laura, I guess it is ambiguous now that i read it on its own. I do hope I am giving the clarification you wanted.

When I said myself and coworkers see tens of thousands of geckos a week I did not intend for anyone to take it that we are large enough to be pumping out tens of thousands of hatchlings a year. As a company we are much smaller then those wholesale breeders. I simply meant that as employees of a large gecko breeder we see many geckos a day, if i were to go through and feed leopards its likely i would see over a thousand individual geckos that day. the next day i might see the same number of geckos checking for eggs but thats still over two thousand geckos i have seen in two days. If i was to pull breeders the third day i might see 3000 geckos between our hatchlings, holdbacks, and proven breeders; what im getting at is the numbers add up quickly when you allow for seeing the same animal multiple times in a week or day.

Hope that clears things up
-Nathan

Jarrod,

If their lines are (in your opinion) so badly inbred and with serious genetic flaws, why are you demanding another gecko from them?

I doubt anyone would be so adamant about getting a replacement anything if they thought the quality of the object in question was sub par to begin with.

This "Bad Guy" thread should be removed. There is no "Bad Guy" here. From the replies given by Steves Geckos, it is obvious that he is more aware than the average "herpetoculturist" about endoparasites. A standard fecal run by a veterinarian will not detect cryptosporidia, hence the mention by Steve of PCR or acid-fast staining. I would expect cryptosporidia to be prevalent in some colonies of leopard geckos from what I have seen of peoples expert husbandry, which leaves a lot to be desired. How they do it, and how I do it are two different planets. And I do not keep lizards at all anymore. I would expect cryptosporidia in critters of dubious origin (swap meets, craigslist), and sometimes other places. Pinworms are typically not pathenogenic in snakes, but can be in lizards. They could come from Acheta domestica, but I would treat nonetheless.

dhaisten said:

This "Bad Guy" thread should be removed. There is no "Bad Guy" here.

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That is not how the BOI works....luckily anyone who reads this can see what is really going on in this situation. This thread will not hurt the seller to much with the information that has been given to us. The OP on the other hand...that is another story.

Magic said:

Jarrod,

If their lines are (in your opinion) so badly inbred and with serious genetic flaws, why are you demanding another gecko from them?

I doubt anyone would be so adamant about getting a replacement anything if they thought the quality of the object in question was sub par to begin with.

Click to expand...

Excellent point.

"Hey these geckos died because of your horrible inbreeding, please send me another one of your horribly inbred geckos or I will go public with this!"