Bad Guy RodentPro- Zoonotic disease warning

I think it is really simple here guys. Either you find an alternative as I gave one in an earlier post. Or continue with the business dealings with RP. Anyone can and will believe and argue about this virus. I personally would throw mine out had I purchased any and bought fresh feeders, "just to be safe". How many times in the past have viruses been underestimated. Like west nile. Only RP can answer for the quality of their product. Not to mention the fact that they allegedly with held information from customers. The lack of communication on their part may have been at the advice of council. It's safe to safe either way as a business standpoint that RP has been dealt a rather nasty blow the livlyhood of their business, whether it be all or at part of their actions. They may never overcome this or comeback from this event taking place.

SirenSanJose said:

Incorrect. They may be an awesome exotics shop, but they're not biologists. Did you miss the part where multiple active, healthy employees with no history of immune system issues contracted this disease?

And it's been said half a dozen times in this thread -- FREEZING DOES NOT KILL VIRUSES COMPLETELY.

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And did you miss the part where the only people who got sick were those who worked at an active breeding facility and therefore were hyper-exposed to several thousand live rodents and their fresh feces and urine, etc. I do agree that freezing doesn't kill virus's completely, but again, the only people that were deemed in need of contact by the CDC about this issue were those who had purchased LIVE rodents - not frozen. The risk to people via frozen rodents is minimal... so much so that you are far more likely to get sick from the chicken you buy at the grocery store than a frozen rodent sitting in your freezer.

Wraith said:

And did you miss the part where the only people who got sick were those who worked at an active breeding facility and therefore were hyper-exposed to several thousand live rodents and their fresh feces and urine, etc. I do agree that freezing doesn't kill virus's completely, but again, the only people that were deemed in need of contact by the CDC about this issue were those who had purchased LIVE rodents - not frozen. The risk to people via frozen rodents is minimal... so much so that you are far more likely to get sick from the chicken you buy at the grocery store than a frozen rodent sitting in your freezer.

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Did you take into consideration that there is no way in this world to know who got sick because of contact with contaminated mice? Once they're shipped, there is no way to know who got sick because of contact with them. I'm sure you must have taken this into consideration and dismissed it as impossible. Otherwise, you may want to consider a second opinion prior to making posts claiming absolutes that more resemble a colander than a sound argument.

The fact that 14 out of, I believe, less than 40 employees, over 30%, got this disease should give pause to anyone doing business with RP.

Wilomn said:

Did you take into consideration that there is no way in this world to know who got sick because of contact with contaminated mice? Once they're shipped, there is no way to know who got sick because of contact with them. I'm sure you must have taken this into consideration and dismissed it as impossible. Otherwise, you may want to consider a second opinion prior to making posts claiming absolutes that more resemble a colander than a sound argument.

The fact that 14 out of, I believe, less than 40 employees, over 30%, got this disease should give pause to anyone doing business with RP.

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Okay, lets take a step back and look at this rationally..
first off the virus has to get into the body to cause an infection. In the above thread, inhalation or contact with a mucous membrane appears to be required.

Second, I don't know about your frozen rodents but I often thaw mine in water to speed thawing and to make the thawing of a bunch of rodents thaw more evenly. Moisture is going to reduce the risk of aerosolizing any potential infectious particulates as well as diluting any virus particles that are present on the surface of the rodents. Just don't do it in your kitchen sink...(I use a slop sink that I routinely disinfect after thawing rodents).

third, thawing the rodents without submerging them tends to result in condensation on the rodents which would also reduce any risk of aerosolizing infectious particulates.


As an additional factor in this whole discussion, attempting to infer risk of infection to a person via frozen rodents by the rate of infection of those who work in close contact with the live animals in an enviroment that includes aerosolization of infectious particles is an apples and oranges comparision. For that rate to be equal between the two, those who are feeding out frozen-thawed rodents would have to be exposed to the same level of aerosolized infectious particles. This has not been shown to be the case.

I've ordered from Rodent Pro in the past, depending on what I've needed and whether or not, the were having a sale and I would order from them in the future.

Some comments

Ed

The BOI has done its job and informed its readers of a situation, arguments can be made on both sides. I think in the end it is up to the buyer to decide if they would purchase from them. Just remember to keep clean buy yourself some good hand wash not the junk they sell at Walmart.

Wilomn said:

Did you take into consideration that there is no way in this world to know who got sick because of contact with contaminated mice? Once they're shipped, there is no way to know who got sick because of contact with them. I'm sure you must have taken this into consideration and dismissed it as impossible. Otherwise, you may want to consider a second opinion prior to making posts claiming absolutes that more resemble a colander than a sound argument.

The fact that 14 out of, I believe, less than 40 employees, over 30%, got this disease should give pause to anyone doing business with RP.

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Did you not read.... the employees who were exposed were hyper-exposed to thousands upon thousands of LIVE animals and their FRESH urine/feces on a daily basis which is HOW this disease is generally spread and why a higher than average rate of infected persons came about. Typically when outbreaks of this disease occur it happens in breeding facilities or laboratories where people are in regular contact with LIVE infected animals. So, unless a person who is already sick (health compromised) is sitting there sucking on a damn infected mouse-cicle the chance of getting sick from a frozen rodent is practically zero.

Wraith said:

Did you not read.... the employees who were exposed were hyper-exposed to thousands upon thousands of LIVE animals and their FRESH urine/feces on a daily basis which is HOW this disease is generally spread and why a higher than average rate of infected persons came about. Typically when outbreaks of this disease occur it happens in breeding facilities or laboratories where people are in regular contact with LIVE infected animals. So, unless a person who is already sick (health compromised) is sitting there sucking on a damn infected mouse-cicle the chance of getting sick from a frozen rodent is practically zero.

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Neat. Unless you're the guy on the outside of practically zero. Also, do you know of other outbreaks of this? Do you know how many were infected, when, how and by what? If not, then most of your diatribe is not only off topic, but false, you know, a lie. Did you mean to lie or do you have some facts to back up your cliams?

I hear that RP has a breeding facility at Area 51.

Wilomn said:

Also, do you know of other outbreaks of this? Do you know how many were infected, when, how and by what? If not, then most of your diatribe is not only off topic, but false, you know, a lie. Did you mean to lie or do you have some facts to back up your cliams?

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The burden of proof actually swings both ways.. ? Is the infection rate as high in those who do not work with live rodents as high as your implying it must be?

Accusing another poster of lying due to not meeting your personal determination of a burden of proof isn't supported by the level of documentation you have provided in this thread.

For example if we look at the CDC information on LCMV (http://www.cdc.gov/healthypets/lcmv_rodents.htm), we can see that it has only been transmitted to humans from mice and hamsters so rats whether live or frozen are an unlikely vector for human infection, so there is no need to throw them out since the risk of infection is so small that it's not considered significant... In addition, simple methods (as recommended by the CDC for the owners of pet rodents) can significantly reduce the risk of infection specifically

If you have a pet rodent, take the following precautions to reduce the risk of LCMV infection:

Wash hands with soap and water after handling pet rodents; use waterless alcohol-based hand rubs when soap is not available.
Keep rodent cages clean and free of soiled bedding.
Clean the cage in a well-ventilated area or outside.
Wash hands thoroughly with soap and water after cleaning up pet droppings. Closely supervise young children, especially those less than five years old, when cleaning cages, and make sure they wash their hands immediately after handling rodents and rodent caging or bedding.
Do not kiss pet rodents or hold them close to your face.

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...

So in this case, when using frozen thawed rodents we can see that first off, you should wash your hands after handling them, and second do not kiss them or stick them in your mouth.. since we don't have to worry about rodent bedding, cleaning rodent cages....etc.

As for risks of infections, despite the thousands of pet mice and hamsters in the USA, this is what the CDC has to say about the chances of getting sick from the virus..

Hamsters and other pet rodents are common and very popular pets. Additionally, the number of documented LCMV infections from pets has been rare.

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The greatest risk for contracting the virus is actually from wild rodents (see http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/spb/mnpages/dispages/lcmv/qa.htm) as about 5% of wild house mice are infected but those who work with live mouse and/or hamster colonies or rodents and in those cases, simple precautions such as using protective gear, and/or the precautions listed above can significantly reduce thier chance of infection...

As for the rate of infection..lets look at a case study in a North American City (see http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2747425) where the rate of infection including all age classes was 3.5% and the mortality rate for the virus according to the CDC is less than 1%. I don't see why some are advocating for a scorched earth policy from the virus.. Your inflating the risk.. for example you are at much greater risk of contracting giardia from a random cat if your not careful since studies have some populations of cats showing an infection rate of 8.5% in the US (See http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1098612X11000209) or even the even greater risk of zoonotic Toxocara cati (see http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1471492203000278) since some studies in the USA, have shown it to be found in up to 21% of cats...

Some comments

Ed

EdwardK said:

The burden of proof actually swings both ways.. ? Is the infection rate as high in those who do not work with live rodents as high as your implying it must be?

Accusing another poster of lying due to not meeting your personal determination of a burden of proof isn't supported by the level of documentation you have provided in this thread.

For example if we look at the CDC information on LCMV (http://www.cdc.gov/healthypets/lcmv_rodents.htm), we can see that it has only been transmitted to humans from mice and hamsters so rats whether live or frozen are an unlikely vector for human infection, so there is no need to throw them out since the risk of infection is so small that it's not considered significant... In addition, simple methods (as recommended by the CDC for the owners of pet rodents) can significantly reduce the risk of infection specifically
...

So in this case, when using frozen thawed rodents we can see that first off, you should wash your hands after handling them, and second do not kiss them or stick them in your mouth.. since we don't have to worry about rodent bedding, cleaning rodent cages....etc.

As for risks of infections, despite the thousands of pet mice and hamsters in the USA, this is what the CDC has to say about the chances of getting sick from the virus..


The greatest risk for contracting the virus is actually from wild rodents (see http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/spb/mnpages/dispages/lcmv/qa.htm) as about 5% of wild house mice are infected but those who work with live mouse and/or hamster colonies or rodents and in those cases, simple precautions such as using protective gear, and/or the precautions listed above can significantly reduce thier chance of infection...

As for the rate of infection..lets look at a case study in a North American City (see http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2747425) where the rate of infection including all age classes was 3.5% and the mortality rate for the virus according to the CDC is less than 1%. I don't see why some are advocating for a scorched earth policy from the virus.. Your inflating the risk.. for example you are at much greater risk of contracting giardia from a random cat if your not careful since studies have some populations of cats showing an infection rate of 8.5% in the US (See http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1098612X11000209) or even the even greater risk of zoonotic Toxocara cati (see http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1471492203000278) since some studies in the USA, have shown it to be found in up to 21% of cats...

Some comments

Ed

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Ed, I've never said anything about scorching anything. I have said that the rats were not vectors. The mice most assuredly are. I have merely given my opinion on the way RP handled this and on what other people have tried to misrepresent. You can pull up study after study, but the thing is, there really is no way to know if anyone who got sick and knew, or knows, nothing about this, got it from the mice or another source.

Twist as you wish, but I've merely said some very simple things. RP handled it poorly. There is probably more of this out there than we know of. This could kill people who don't know and are in certain susceptible categories, pregnant, old, young, immuno comprimised or frequently, but unknowingly, exposed. Is this what you wish to debate?

really?

To all the people ATTACKING me heres the link to the cdc website to the disease in question
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/spb/mnpages/dispages/lcmv.htm
I did my research on this disease and asked my pet shop which deals with live and frozen rodents from rodent pro. Rodent pro will not sell any live rodents but will still sell frozen rodents. If this disease was as deadly as what people are claiming it to be with only hear say the cdc would have shut down every store involved until it was taken care of. For you all to attack me without doing your own research. I have done research and am trying to save peoples time and money. I have frozen rodents from rodentpro very recently and not a single person in my household have had any symptoms or any illness. In that link it tells you that you can only be affected by this disease after coming into contact with FRESH urine, feces, saliva, or bedding. I made the post short because i figured people on here could figure shit out for themselves and would have more time educating themselves on the subject. So thanks for the hate that spews out of ur mouth for no reason. Glad that fellow herpkeepers are decent to other herpkeepers

Dylan, I looked at the link you provided for us, and under the info having to do with this particular outbreak, it says
"People using frozen or live rodents for feeding to other animals should always follow safety precautions, including wearing gloves when handling animal product, and washing hands with soap and water after handling animal products."

Wilomn said:

Ed, I've never said anything about scorching anything. I have said that the rats were not vectors. The mice most assuredly are. I have merely given my opinion on the way RP handled this and on what other people have tried to misrepresent. You can pull up study after study, but the thing is, there really is no way to know if anyone who got sick and knew, or knows, nothing about this, got it from the mice or another source.

Twist as you wish, but I've merely said some very simple things. RP handled it poorly. There is probably more of this out there than we know of. This could kill people who don't know and are in certain susceptible categories, pregnant, old, young, immuno comprimised or frequently, but unknowingly, exposed. Is this what you wish to debate? ?

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With respect to the scorched earth comment, while you didn't specifically say scorched earth, you have clearly been advocating one, in which people should never deal with Rodent Pro.. so the denial on your part is a little specious...

I actually haven't twisted anything, it is pretty hard to twist anything when a person is actually citing the risk and evidence from the definitive authorities on the disease and provides the links to show where the information orignated.
If you read through the citations I provided above, it would be easy to determine those who have been exposed since antibody titers can be run (which is how they determined the prevelance in the study I referenced). In addition, as I noted above, the CDC doesn't consider the disease to be the risk you keep claiming it to be, since in the links I provided and Dylan provided a second time, they provide basic recommendations for keeping rodent pets with children (including classroom pets), and recommendations for pregnant women (which is the same the CDC recommends to mitigate risk of toxoplasmosis). The CDC is clear in stating the risk of contracting it is rare... and as for twisting it, you are claiming a rate of infection based on highly exposed individuals, which is not supported by infections rates in the hospital at large which is clearly twisting the information to support your position. It is clear in the data from the CDC, that simple hygeine precautions are sufficient to keep people from contracting it...

As for more of it being out there... it is clear that is true, since the main vector of infection to humans is via wild house mice. There is good data on the risk and I cited it and the study that demonstrated it.

Hiding behind a supposed desire to protect at risk populations doesn't isn't a justification to start insulting people who have a different point of view particularly those who are referencing solid data from authoritative works.

Some comments

Ed

Right which anyone with common sense should do. If your handling rodents then not washing your hands then u deserve to get sick. Its the same kind of thing with the snakes supposedly being carriers for salmonella. They are not carriers for salmonella. People can get sick if they handle any kind of feces and not wash their hands. People get sick from this kind of stuff from just being careless and having poor hygiene

Hi Dylan. I'm in St. Louis, too. Would you be willing to let me know, either here or pm, which store you talked to? I'm not being argumentative, I truly want to know. I know one Petco that had a sign up last month "No rodents until further notice". If it's a store where I know the people and their background, I'd like to hear their input just for my own curiosity. Obviously, I can't think of many around here I trust to have the biological knowledge to share their opinions on CDC findings, but certainly there are some. Thanks!

Noelle

Exotic arc down on lemay. They spoke directly to rodentpro and were informed that the frozen rodents are not affected which is why they have been low on live rodents.

stlsnakekeeper187 said:

Exotic arc down on lemay. They spoke directly to rodentpro and were informed that the frozen rodents are not affected which is why they have been low on live rodents.

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Thanks! Jim's a good guy. I'll see him at the 9/9 show, and get his thoughts.



Noelle

Ill hopefully be there. Im at almost every show. But i managed to total my car today and now have no car.

Suncoast Herpetological said:

I have been reading this thread from inception and have not posted till now because I really had not decided what my take on the situation was.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I have been a Rodent Pro customer for the last ten years or so

Why is the following not a viable and reasonable timeline on this situation

1. The CDC performs a random check on the facilities sometime in the last couple of months.

2. One of several facilities tests positive for the virus

3. The CDC requests / demands the records of sales from that facility

4. The CDC immediately (per what I am sure is very efficient protocol) contacts the buyers who received rodents from that facility

5. The CDC requests information from those 14 buyers as to whom they might have sold the infected rodents to.

7. Everyone who can be alerted / contacted has now been alerted / contacted.

Why would Rodent Pro have contacted the buyers when the CDC obviously has protocols in place to do it?

Making the jump to the assumption that Rodent Pro has done anything incorrectly in this situation without proof is a bit of a stretch. If all potential buyers were contacted in a timely manner after discovery...who cares who did the notifying?

For all we know, the notification was handled as it was under the edict of the CDC and Rodent Pro was directed not to send out a blanket warning.

Unless someone actually has real information to the contrary, I see no obvious bad on the part of Rodent Pro

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You hit the button on the head... EXCEPT that Rodent Pro did not send out any type of email even telling customers NOT to worry, that they were not contaminated.

It would have been much better for them to have contacted either way, NOT to have heard this crap on Faunaclassifieds (no offense to this site) As I have said in other posts, I purchased many Mice from RP in May and my Wife is pregnant. It is our first child. Put yourself in my shoes for a second and then say "I see no obvious bad on the part of Rodent Pro"

Rodent Pro dropped the ball with customer service. I have tried to contact them about this and they just ignore me. I would like someone from that company to say, Yeah man, you are fine, you were not contaminated.

dumboa said:

You hit the button on the head... EXCEPT that Rodent Pro did not send out any type of email even telling customers NOT to worry, that they were not contaminated.

It would have been much better for them to have contacted either way, NOT to have heard this crap on Faunaclassifieds (no offense to this site) As I have said in other posts, I purchased many Mice from RP in May and my Wife is pregnant. It is our first child. Put yourself in my shoes for a second and then say "I see no obvious bad on the part of Rodent Pro"

Rodent Pro dropped the ball with customer service. I have tried to contact them about this and they just ignore me. I would like someone from that company to say, Yeah man, you are fine, you were not contaminated.

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So...what you are saying, for example, if Perdue was determined to have shipped out salmonella infected fresh chicken to only 2 stores within one state... you would expect them to send emails out to all stores throughout the entire country to inform them that hey.. congrats you are not contaminated? No. They only need to contact the two stores that were affected who can then go about doing what they need to do to deal with the situation.

The only time you hear of big news releases of contamination of products is when the problem is not something that can be considered locally contained..or the form of contamination is considered highly dangerous. This little mouse virus we are talking about is not highly dangerous.. it is not even moderately dangerous. You really are in far greater danger from the food you buy for yourself at a grocery store or the mosquito or tick that bites you outside in your own backyard than you are from this mouse virus. If the CDC thought that RP needed to send out a mass notice to all of its customers about what amounts to a non-event, then yeah I seriously bet they would have done exactly that if they were told to do so.

And really.. if you are THAT overly concerned about your wife being pregnant.. then get rid of ALL your animals... fish, cats, dogs, birds, reptiles, whatever. For that matter.. get rid of all the food in your house - don't handle or cook any food in the house ever again. bug bomb the hell out of it too cause you never know what creepy crawlies that might be hiding in the woodwork or drains or dark corners. Bleach it, sterlize it, irradiate the hell out of the house if you feel you must to "protect" your wife. Unless you are willing to wear a hazmat suit, just Don't go outside. Don't go to public places. Don't touch money. Don't touch door knobs. Don't touch people. Don't breathe the air. My brother's wife was pregnant - high risk pregnancy. Doctor knows there are all kinds of animals in their house as well as other family member's houses (from common to exotics). He was like... eh.. wash your hands frequently after petting/handling any animal but let someone else be 100% responsible for cleaning litter boxes, food dishes, etc. common sense chit yanno.