A Select Few Reptiles (Paul Jarosh) Bad Guy!

On 6/7/05 I received a group of 9 corn snakes [0.2 Snow, 1.1 Lavender, 1.0 Opal, 1.0 Amel Het Lavender, 0.1 Blood Red, 1.0 Het Blood Red, 0.1 Butter Motley. $600 for the group shipped]. One was DOA (Snow) and another (Butter Motley) laid eggs in route. The packing of the box consisted of 4 bags (2 adults per bag with the exception of one bag with 3 in it) on the bottom and some newspaper (8 balled up pieces of large ad sized, not even enough to fill the box half way). The one that laid the eggs was retaining what looks like two eggs. The seller was going to ship on Monday for Tuesday arrival but didn't ship until Tuesday (which he did inform me of). I was told they would arrive by 10:30 am. We specifically spoke of this on the phone because I am the first stop on the route for the morning (FedEx Express) but the last stop for the Standard overnight route.

When I checked the tracking number the morning or delivery I saw that the package was shipped Standard, I e-mailed the seller and told him this. No response.

I e-mailed the seller after I received the box with the DOA. I was refunded a portion of money ($40.00). The seller wasn't apologetic but stated that she was the oldest of the bunch. He also stated that the return on my investment came sooner with the one laying in route. The eggs are in the incubator but I will be surprised if any hatch since they were already dehydrating/dented and God knows how bounced around and turned.I think he may have had them packed up the day before because they were already well on their way to being raisins by the time I opened the bag. Granted it was hot that day and they were on the truck all day, but when putting the snakes in tubs they all drank like there was no tomorrow.

I took the Butter Motley to my vet to have the eggs removed since they were mid-body still.

Below are the e-mails and some pictures:

From : A Select Few Reptiles <[email protected]>
Sent : Monday, May 30, 2005 9:06 PM
To : "Dave G" <[email protected]>
Subject : Re: Message about: Adult Corn Group for Sale

MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: [65.54.161.200] X-Originating-Email: [[email protected]] X-Sender: [email protected] Received: from hotmail.com ([65.54.161.75]) by MC6-F11.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 30 May 2005 18:06:52 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 30 May 2005 18:06:39 -0700 Received: from 65.54.161.200 by BAY106-DAV3.phx.gbl with DAV;Tue, 31 May 2005 01:06:39 +0000 X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jEHjJx36Oi8+Z3TmmkSEdPtfpLB7P/ybN8= References: <[email protected]> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 May 2005 01:06:39.0277 (UTC) FILETIME=[FFDA3DD0:01C5657C] Return-Path: [email protected]

I just wanted to let you know that I received the money. Can you please send me an e-mail with your shipping info and contact info. I'll need a name, address and phone. Also let me know when you would be able to receive the package. I've got a few packages going out Monday the 6th and could send yours out then as well. So let me know if you will be around on Tuesday the 7th to receive the package.

Thank you
Paul Jarosh
A Select Few Reptiles



From : A Select Few Reptiles <[email protected]>
Sent : Tuesday, June 7, 2005 5:24 AM
To : <[email protected]>
Subject : Re: Corn group

MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: [65.54.161.200] X-Originating-Email: [[email protected]] X-Sender: [email protected] Received: from hotmail.com ([65.54.161.75]) by mc1-f6.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 7 Jun 2005 02:45:54 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 02:24:30 -0700 Received: from 65.54.161.200 by BAY106-DAV3.phx.gbl with DAV;Tue, 07 Jun 2005 09:24:30 +0000 X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jHHOuCwgjUfs8ROho1+StBoVb/oV/w4MoY= References: <[email protected]> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jun 2005 09:24:30.0942 (UTC) FILETIME=[B5A4D7E0:01C56B42] Return-Path: [email protected]

Dave they are all packed up and will go out today. I packed them in the group I was housing them in. I also noticed that a few of the females were looking big, particularly the alb het lav and the butter motley. The blood red actually dropped her eggs the other day so she is in shed and a little thin. So you should make you money back rather quickly with the gravid butter motley (x opal male) and the gravid alb het lav (x lav male). Let me know when you receive the package and that all is well.

Thank you

Paul Jarosh
A Select Few Reptiles


My e-mail to him on 6/8/05
Paul,

Checking the tracking just now it looks like you sent them Standard Overnight instead of Express, which means they'll be on the truck all day and not get here until 3:00 since I'm the last stop on the Standard Overnight route.

Dave

My e-mail to him on 6/8/05
Paul

One of the snows is DOA. I'll get you a pic shortly. The Butter Motley laid eggs in route.

Dave


From : A Select Few Reptiles <[email protected]>
Sent : Wednesday, June 8, 2005 4:10 PM
To : "Dave G" <[email protected]>
Subject : Re: Corn group

MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: [65.54.161.200] X-Originating-Email: [[email protected]] X-Sender: [email protected] Received: from hotmail.com ([65.54.161.88]) by MC8-F40.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:19:32 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:10:31 -0700 Received: from 65.54.161.200 by BAY106-DAV16.phx.gbl with DAV;Wed, 08 Jun 2005 20:10:31 +0000 X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jEHjJx36Oi8+Z3TmmkSEdPtfpLB7P/ybN8= References: <[email protected]> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jun 2005 20:10:31.0404 (UTC) FILETIME=[1F17BAC0:01C56C66] Return-Path: [email protected]

Well she was the oldest one of the bunch. I had her for 4 years and then the guy before me wasn't sure. It was his kids pet that went away to college and didn't want it any more. The others I received as hatchlings over the past 6 years. I'm glad to hear that all the others are ok and I guess the return on investment was a little sooner than later with the BM. The butter motley was in with the opal after coming out of brumination. I'll send you out $40 through paypal to cover the lost snake. Any other questions or concerns feel free to drop me a line.

Thank you
Paul Jarosh
A Select Few Reptiles


My e-mail to him on 6/9/05
Paul,

I don't know how you came up with the figure of $40 for the DOA snow but whatever. The Butter Motley female still has a couple eggs in her. I put her in a tub with a lay box but she didn't drop them over night. Hopefully she will pass them soon. I'll keep you updated about her. As for the ones she did drop in route, I highly doubt the will be viable due to them being moved around so much in transit.

Dave


From : A Select Few Reptiles <[email protected]>
Sent : Thursday, June 9, 2005 9:59 AM
To : "Dave G" <[email protected]>
Subject : Re: Corn group

MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: [65.54.161.200] X-Originating-Email: [[email protected]] X-Sender: [email protected] Received: from hotmail.com ([65.54.161.75]) by mc9-f31.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:04:08 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 06:59:08 -0700 Received: from 65.54.161.200 by BAY106-DAV3.phx.gbl with DAV;Thu, 09 Jun 2005 13:59:07 +0000 X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jED7SW68yu4RPIeULQwGyRnUu0qwYQMVoE= References: <[email protected]> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jun 2005 13:59:08.0008 (UTC) FILETIME=[67911680:01C56CFB] Return-Path: [email protected]

I figured $40 was reasonable especially since the snows basically came for free with the butter motley, opal etc. If you are unhappy with the group you can send them back and I can resell them. I won't mind.


My e-mail to him on 6/9/05
Paul,

Do you think it was irresponsible to be shipping the Butter Motley as gravid as she was? Especially now knowing she is still retaining what looks like two eggs and could become egg bound? What if the Butter Motley dies due to being egg bound?

If you had shipped on Monday and had the morning arrival like we had discussed chances are the Butter Motley wouldn't have laid and the one Snow would not have died in transit. Why did you ship Standard over night when you said it would arrive by 10:30? We discussed this on the phone and I told you that I was the first stop on the Express route but the last stop on the Standard route.

No, I'm not happy, but if I send them back to you and more die, what then? Would that not make me just as irresponsible as you were?

Dave

My e-mail to him on 6/12/05 (sent twice - the bottom (jwherps) e-mail was sandwiched between 2 submissions of this same e-mail)
Paul,

I sent you this the other day but have not received a response.

Do you think it was irresponsible to be shipping the Butter Motley as gravid as she was? Especially now knowing she is still retaining what looks like two eggs and could become egg bound? What if the Butter Motley dies due to being egg bound? (Addition 6/12/05: I will be taking the Butter Motley to the vet since she has not laid the last two eggs)

If you had shipped on Monday and had the morning arrival like we had discussed chances are the Butter Motley wouldn't have laid and the one Snow would not have died in transit. Why did you ship Standard over night when you said it would arrive by 10:30? We discussed this on the phone and I told you that I was the first stop on the Express route but the last stop on the Standard route.

No, I'm not happy, but if I send them back to you and more die, what then? Would that not make me just as irresponsible as you were?

Dave

My e-mail to him on 6/16/05
Paul,

Again, I sent you this the other day but have not received a response. I would like a response from you.

Do you think it was irresponsible to be shipping the Butter Motley as gravid as she was? Especially now knowing she is still retaining what looks like two eggs and could become egg bound? What if the Butter Motley dies due to being egg bound? (Addition 6/12/05: I will be taking the Butter Motley to the vet since she has not laid the last two eggs) (Addition 6/16: I had her to the vet today to have the last two eggs removed. The bill was $36.00.)

If you had shipped on Monday and had the morning arrival like we had discussed chances are the Butter Motley wouldn't have laid and the one Snow would not have died in transit. Why did you ship Standard over night when you said it would arrive by 10:30? We discussed this on the phone and I told you that I was the first stop on the Express route but the last stop on the Standard route.

No, I'm not happy, but if I send them back to you and more die, what then? Would that not make me just as irresponsible as you were?

Dave

On 6/12/05 I e-mailed him using a fictitious name and I received a response to this e-mail but not the one’s sent before and after this concerning our transaction. I guess he didn’t feel like he had to respond to me, and hasn’t.


From : A Select Few Reptiles <[email protected]>
Sent : Sunday, June 12, 2005 8:21 PM
To : <[email protected]>
Subject : Re: Message about: 2005 Kenyan Sand Boas


Sorry, I do not know the ratio

----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 2:16 PM Subject: Message about: 2005 Kenyan Sand Boas

Do you know the sex ratio of them?

John

Dvid,

It seems appropriate to link this thread with the one on the General Business Discussions:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69339&page=1

Regards

Sorry to hear about all the BS surrounding this deal. I would love to know how he came up with the $40.00 refund price. After paying for surgery and such you won;t be seeing profit for a while even if those eggs make it.

I hope he responds with an explanation worth something.

A Select Few Reptiles (Paul Jarosh) Bad Guy- Noted.

Rebel Dragons said:

Sorry to hear about all the BS surrounding this deal. I would love to know how he came up with the $40.00 refund price. After paying for surgery and such you won;t be seeing profit for a while even if those eggs make it.

I hope he responds with an explanation worth something.

Click to expand...

Apparently the rational was "the snows were basically free, with the purchased higher end animals"
So he shipped two gravid snakes? Plus poor packaging. Seems a "time out" may be in order so that he can re-prioritize; care/concern of animals vs immediate money.

It's been a couple weeks, what's the update on the "egg bound" one? and how do the eggs look, did they swell up a little initially, have you candled them? seems they would be rotten by now, maybe you caught them in time.
Keep us in the loop.

The BoidSmith said:

David,

It seems appropriate to link this thread with the one on the General Business Discussions:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69339&page=1

Regards

Click to expand...

Thanks Dan. I was going to but I got called away and forgot when I returned.

Rebel Dragons said:

I hope he responds with an explanation worth something.

Click to expand...

Since he wasn't man enough before, I highly doubt he is now. Besides how can he justify responding to me using a bogus name for the Sand Boa classified he had posted, but not responding to the e-mails sent before and after concerning this?

reptilebreeder said:

A Select Few Reptiles (Paul Jarosh) Bad Guy- Noted.

So he shipped two gravid snakes? Plus poor packaging. Seems a "time out" may be in order so that he can re-prioritize; care/concern of animals vs immediate money.

Click to expand...

Talking to him on the phone I got them impression he was getting out of Colubrids and into Pythons. He also seems to be into Sand Boas also.

reptilebreeder said:

It's been a couple weeks, what's the update on the "egg bound" one? and how do the eggs look, did they swell up a little initially, have you candled them? seems they would be rotten by now, maybe you caught them in time.
Keep us in the loop.

Click to expand...

My vet was able to manipulate the eggs out from mid-body. She just shed yesterday and today will be feeding day. My vet bill was rather cheap ($36.00) for this and was probably due to all my herps going there plus I direct a lot of business to them.

As for the eggs; they are fuzzy raisins.

Dave,

I'm glad that you posted this here. You did show a great deal of restraint in waiting but clearly the seller's attitude (oh well, she was an old snake) about a live animal left much to be desired. Also as I said in the other thread, shipping the other snake so long after a pre-lay shed is just wrong.

Basically the $40 refund for the dead animal covered the vet bill for taking care of the animal that was egg bound due to the seller's negligence. You are still out one dead animal and one clutch of "fuzzy raisins". Shipping overnight for afternoon delivery this time of year is risky at best. Had there been cool packs in with the animals the result may have been different. Of course, had there been adequate packing material in the box the result might have been different.

I agree that sending these animal back to someone with such callous disregard for them would have been the wrong thing to do. They are in good hands now.

What a shame

about the lost animals! Some people should not even own a guppy!
Can't figure out why some folks think that by ignoring emails, problems will just "dissapear"

David,
Not into snakes any more, but this thread caught my eye.

With regard to how your deal went ... with the wrong type of shipping despite your communication, with the somewhat careless packaging, shipping an animal that was gravid, etc, there are many reasons to not be satisfied. I would estimate that based on the evidence, it is a wise choice for Paul to be moving out of colubrids. It is obvious that he fouled things up in several ways, and could have done better. I know neither him nor you. I also think that your bringing the issue to the BOI was valid, as it presents the facts well, for others to judge in future business dealings.

But now, I have to mention a couple of things that are in Paul's defense, based on the communications offered here, and if I've made a bad assumption, LMK. First off, I am assuming that his offer to take them back to resell them meant he was going to give you a full refund first, and not sell them for you, with the refund pending the resale. If so, a full refund for the group was an appropriate response. If you choose to keep the animals out of concern for their well being, that is noble, and I commend you. With regard to the partial refund of $40, I have no clue whether that was reasonable in the context of the deal, and feel it is something he needed to consult you about first. The second point would be the justified but self-defeating choice of words in your emails to him trying to resolve this. I may have done the same, and have now the luxury of looking at your posts in hind-sight. But when you are trying to resolve a business disagreement, and ask someone a question which begins with the a tone "Aren't you irresponsible ......", or whatever the exact wording was, it is not likely to lead to a resolution of the matter. I hope that I learn from my own advice here, but it is best to take a deep breath before preparing a complaint letter, and just state where you feel you did not recieve what you paid for, product or sevice or whatever, and then state what you feel fair restitution would be. Expecting anyone to respond, and possibly even agree, that they are irresponsible makes a workable solution harder to get to, regardless of whether or not others would agree with your conclusion.
I am also wondering ... were you expecting a gravid animal? If not, then it shows a certain lack of knowledge about his animals, or even greater lack of concern and carelessness, on the part of Paul. I hope that the remaining animals do well for you.

Jim Flaherty
The Chameleon Company, LLC

Wow...

Looks like a lot of trouble.

I tried to snatch that group up when it was posted on that classified site. Maybe a good thing I didn't.

Sorry to hear of your problems.

-Jeff

Jeff,

You need to post your full name in BOI posts, either in your signature or in the "Name" section of your profile so it appears at the left, even if it seems "obvious" what it is.

<<<~~~~~~~

Otherwise it might be deleted and you may get warning points as well.

MohrSnakes said:

Wow...

Looks like a lot of trouble.

I tried to snatch that group up when it was posted on that classified site. Maybe a good thing I didn't.

Sorry to hear of your problems.

-Jeff

Click to expand...

Oops...
Haven't been here in a long time....forgot!

Jeff Mohr is my name.

Hey Jim....

Jeffs full name is on the post, below the avitar. My understanding is if its there it doesn't need to be anywhere else.

Hey John,

You're right. He edited after I pointed it out.

SO sorry Jim

Sorry but I've seen others overlook the name under the avitar. I needed to post here anyway since I'm watching the thread.

Dave,
Any new news on this?

John

LotsaPetsGarfHt said:

Dave,
Any new news on this?

John

Click to expand...

Nothing new to report except that the Butter Motley has eaten a mouse.
I haven't heard from him and would be surprised if I did.

Chamco said:

But now, I have to mention a couple of things that are in Paul's defense, based on the communications offered here, and if I've made a bad assumption, LMK. First off, I am assuming that his offer to take them back to resell them meant he was going to give you a full refund first, and not sell them for you, with the refund pending the resale. If so, a full refund for the group was an appropriate response.

Click to expand...

I have no idea what his intentions were when offering to take them back. I have not received any form of response from him since the e-mail in which he "offered'.

Chamco said:

The second point would be the justified but self-defeating choice of words in your emails to him trying to resolve this. I may have done the same, and have now the luxury of looking at your posts in hind-sight. But when you are trying to resolve a business disagreement, and ask someone a question which begins with the a tone "Aren't you irresponsible ......", or whatever the exact wording was, it is not likely to lead to a resolution of the matter. I hope that I learn from my own advice here, but it is best to take a deep breath before preparing a complaint letter, and just state where you feel you did not recieve what you paid for, product or sevice or whatever, and then state what you feel fair restitution would be. Expecting anyone to respond, and possibly even agree, that they are irresponsible makes a workable solution harder to get to, regardless of whether or not others would agree with your conclusion.

Click to expand...

I took more than one deep breath before replying. If you look at my first responses they were rather short and to the point. I was rather upset over his lack of concern for the animals well being. My reply "Do you think it was irresponsible to be shipping the Butter Motley as gravid as she was?" was made the day after receiving the group and after his statement, "If you are unhappy with the group you can send them back and I can resell them. I won't mind." Again his lack of either knowledge or concern for the welfare of the animals prompted my response. To think anybody would send a gravid snake and a snake that just recently laid eggs and is still retaining two eggs is just ludicrous. For me to send them back to him would also make me a hypocrite by doing so.

Chamco said:

I am also wondering ... were you expecting a gravid animal? If not, then it shows a certain lack of knowledge about his animals, or even greater lack of concern and carelessness, on the part of Paul. I hope that the remaining animals do well for you.

Click to expand...

In one of his e-mails (posted in my first post) it states, "I also noticed that a few of the females were looking big, particularly the alb het lav and the butter motley. The blood red actually dropped her eggs the other day so she is in shed and a little thin. So you should make you money back rather quickly with the gravid butter motley (x opal male) and the gravid alb het lav (x lav male)." I guess I gave him credit where it was undue. I thought that everybody keeps records and could tell you when your animals have bred, shed, ate, laid, ect... He obviously didn't. If he does and still shipped then he is even dumber than I thought.

Regardless of how I replied, he screwed up and has not come forward to make things right. He'll respond to someone inquiring about animals he has for sale but not to someone who he has wronged.

Dave,
Without parsing all of your reply, I do think that he had primarily a lack of concern that only compounded a lack of knowledge, and he could have performed better in all aspects of the deal. Shipping gravid animals like that is more in line with what you expect with imports, not stateside animals. But "irresponsible" as he may have been, it wasn't going to generate an additional positive dialogue, if it was possible to begin with. His actions, and inactions, in this deal make him someone most readers here would want to avoid. But here I will quote you: "Regardless of how I replied, he screwed up and has not come forward to make things right". As I reread the exchange of emails between you, I see him offer $40 as compensaton, which you queston, but then say "whatever". If another amount was more appropriate, I don't see it mentioned. I also see him offer a full refund, while you say he now has yet to "make things right". If returning the animals for a full refund was "irresponsible", then what was the alternative that you suggested that he declined? My question is not to debate whether he did or did not deliver as expected, or the merit of your bringing it to the BOI. Its what you think the restitution should have been since you rejected his full refund offer, where and when you communicated this to him, and what his reply was. Would he have responded to a counter-offer for restitution? I don't know. But if the full refund offer is not "making it right", and I agree that it may not be, it is up to you, the customer, to define what does "make it right".

Jim Flaherty
The Chameleon Company, LLC

Chamco said:

But if the full refund offer is not "making it right", and I agree that it may not be, it is up to you, the customer, to define what does "make it right".

Click to expand...

Without any doubt at the minimum he owes me for the trip to the vet. If he has even bothered to read my e-mails he would know this. Personally I believe he still owes me more for the DOA snow. Since he saved a few bucks by shipping Standard instead of the discussed Express that should be reimbursed to me as well. All of which is moot since has chosen to ignore my e-mails.

Again I will say, regardless of how I responded to him, he should be a man and take responsibility for his poor choice of actions of shipping the snakes in their conditions and the means in which he shipped them. His shipping of gravid animals, poor packing of said animals and now his lack of response just shows his true character.