Illegal shipping, how widespread is it?

Somehow I doubt the ability of a postal worker to tell the difference between a Dendrobates and a Hyla, or between a Heloderma and an Ackie, etc. especially based solely on X-rays or various chemical methods. By necessity, there is a certain amount of 'good faith' built into the system, with punishment doled out only when infractions come to light.

And technically, even a WC that's been in captivity for long enough will lose its toxicity. I'm not aware of any specific study on how long that is, but I suspect it's not more than a few months, possibly as little as a few weeks.

Originally Posted by Mokele

Somehow I doubt the ability of a postal worker to tell the difference between a Dendrobates and a Hyla, or between a Heloderma and an Ackie, etc. especially based solely on X-rays or various chemical methods. By necessity, there is a certain amount of 'good faith' built into the system, with punishment doled out only when infractions come to light.

And technically, even a WC that's been in captivity for long enough will lose its toxicity. I'm not aware of any specific study on how long that is, but I suspect it's not more than a few months, possibly as little as a few weeks.

whether they know or not...it is against the law....it is going to take something REAL happening to put a bad light on our hobby. Is this what we want ???? so keep on shipping how you all want...keep on looking for ways around the t.o.s.

I should make it clear that I'm in no way endorsing illegal shipping - I've always done things 'by the book', in large part out of concern for the animal's welfare. I'm just pointing out that some of the rules are ambiguous (as in the case of toxic frogs which have lost their toxicity) and that while some checking *does* happen, there's a certain element of 'the honor system' in shipping.

Well, my reference to chemical/xray/dog methods was directed at your comment:
"Technically, how is anyone supposed to know what's in the box, since they don't open it? You could be shipping a cobra, or half a kilo of heroin."

And wasn't claiming that an average postman could identify a species by it's odor (gcms) or xray.


My guess is it goes something like this:

1. Package is flagged by xray/dog/etc.

2. USPIS opens package

3A. Package contains snake (illegal)... result shipped punished

3B. Package contains frog
~I'm pretty sure most American's could distinguish between a frog/toad/lizard and a snake with VERY few exceptions (i.e. Anguis fragilis).

4. Frog is very colorful

5A. USPIS looks at their handy dandy database at pictures of frogs and see's it's a red eyed tree frog...result: package continues along it's way

5B. Database suggests that pretty frog may be a poison arrow dart frog...result: package held, frog probably dies, saved as evidence and "expertly" identified...shipper punished.

Originally Posted by John Apple

whether they know or not...it is against the law....it is going to take something REAL happening to put a bad light on our hobby. Is this what we want ???? so keep on shipping how you all want...keep on looking for ways around the t.o.s.

No. That is not what I want. There are good reasons for the prohibitions.

I think that the USPS, until just recently, was unaware that there are MANY spider vendors who brazenly advertise on their sites that they (illegally) ship USPS. I think they were unaware of the magnitude of the problem.

There are numerous threads on various sites that scoff at the law, where many step up as donp has on this very thread and stated that they ship this way. There are numerous vendors that openly advertise their illegal shipping methods on various sites. That hurts us all.

It is time for that to change. I do not want our whole hobby to be shut down. I do not want those who are charged with making and enforcing our laws to see all of us as scofflaws and outlaws because all of us are not that way.

The USPS is now more aware of those sites and vendors. It is time for a change.

Another idea is that they realize that there is really no reason to prohibit the shipping of spiders (or certain other things) so they look the other way. They just don't want to go through the process of amending the laws because once they remove a law they lose the opportunity to prosecute if things do go wrong. I would bet they feel the same way with harmless snakes. Think about it. What makes a cornsnake any different from a bearded dragon from a shipping standpoint. Snakes are escape artists? Train your employees to handle other people's property with respect and care and there are no issues. People are afraid of snakes? other than the counter people no one reads the labels as to whats in the package anyway. There could be a snake in any of the packages they are handling for all they know.

Someone made the comment it all depends on the post office. That right there tells me that the USPS as an agency doesn't really care. The ones who care are the few by the book counter people who are following exactly what the law says or they are implementing the law based on their own fears and prejudices. Their employer doesn't care but if someone brings it up they have to follow through.

If any of these shipping agencies (USPS, Fed Ex, UPS etc) actually knew how much more money they could make by allowing the shipment of certain things FOLLOWING their rules I think they would change in a heartbeat. If they make it known to everyone that you can ship snakes via them if you follow their rules I think people would jump at the chance to not have to hide the fact they are shipping snakes or whatever. As long as the rules are within reason people would follow them and use the service.

I must admit, I used to bristle every time I saw someone advertising shipping snakes through the USPS. But since I found out that tarantulas are also illegal to ship (I have not shipped any, just received a bunch) I have to look the other way when people offer the service for snakes. Its either that or start paying a lot more money to get my tarantulas, or live with the fact that I am a hypocrite for condemning those who ship snakes this way and continuing to accept spider shipments.