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Bad Guy WebSlave

Honestly the only reason I posted was I new my name would come up and I new he had posted the boi to the moderator. I'm done with this I know none of you and I didnt post to slam any of you so what you think you think, I never asked for a trader rateing and I never enven new he did tell I got the the e-mails between them, It is was not a big deal at first and I'm sorry it got so out of hand. I know I that I shouldn't have posted. But where my name was involved the very first post was meant for the other moderator then every one else put in there two sense. So I'm sorry to those who dont like me cause I'm human and got mad but honestly I didn't get mad at the origanal positing of this boi I got pissed at every one else makeing it about me, I just offered to give the e-mails, and I thought he had a point of it being rude. But my rants and raves are not at Rich or the site its all because evryone else made me the bad guy because I was the one he wanted to rate and somehow thats my fault I did not I reapeat did not ask for a rateing or any thing. So I'am not whining I did not get one I just wanted to say origanally I thought it could have been handled differently. So with that said none of you got the origanl point and maybe I said it wrong not good with words it was a few here that turned it to me just for saying that the first response was rude.

I dont know any of you and you dont know me so lets leave it at that I have not judged any of you and I 'am being judged because I got pissed off which had nothing to do with the origanal post it was the stuff that was said after that made me mad I felt like I was attacked by some of you and I went on the defenseive. Its clear that my point of veiw may be wrong but the whole stuff calling me names like a liar, saying I'm hurting for buisness, and mad I did'nt get the trader rateing is what made me mad and that junk is what has made me angry since none of you know me and I had nothing to do with wanting any of this I just picked a side that you all did'nt so I'm bad. But it got off the origanal topic and I personally thought it could have been handled differently,so I appearently I was wrong for my customer wanting to do something for me so my name was involved and according to every one here who knows me so well I am in desperate need of this rateing, and I had no Idea this had happened tell I got the e-mail, that he felt like they were rude to him, so I am sorry I am so defensive, and went off, But you are all just as much to blame as me since I just wanted to origanally wanted to say how I thought it was handled was wrong, But it became an attack on me, so Thanks to all for the judge ment, You all know me better than I know my self and I respect all your opinions of me based on my actions I do get riled up when I get attacked or threatenedand I just felt I was giving an inside opinion tell I was threatened so sorry.












lucille said:
You keep on digging yourself deeper by avoiding personal responsibility for your own words by continuing to blame others. And, you are still here and continuing to complain and berate, which goes to show that you DO have considerable freedom to make yourself look ridiculous.

Don't need no hoodies here, you are doing a great job all by yourself.
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My Gawd. Talk about beating a dead horse already. This thread takes the cake almost as good as the wisecup thread.
 
It's everyone else's fault that the OP was a whiney jerk who posted a rude nasty thread against Modslave, for no good reason. It's also everyone else's fault that Adam posted a rude post, in which he said several things which were not true.

Next up, we'll be certain to hear the "It was my little brother posting, not me"
 
Double D said:
Hey guys I don't like to bash people BUT. Anyway, I bought a couple geckos from a guy on this forum. So I was going to leave a positive trader rating, but wasn't able to. I sent an email to to ask why I wasn't able to. I was then told I had to be a paying member. Well that is all good so I asked webslave if there was anyway that positive trader rating could be sent to the guy I bought the geckos from. Well then I recieved a smart ass email for no good reason. I wasn't not once replying with a bad attitude until I got bad attitude. If anyone dosen't believe this shoot me an email and I'll forward it to you to show what an ASSHOLE this guy is. I understand that non-paying members can't leave trader ratings no need to be a asshole. :censored: :angry:
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LOL.. Not much to add that hasn't been stated about this farce.
Gecko Euphoria said:
Did you not see the post I said nothing bad about you personally my whole intention was to just let you know you were rude first he was not in the right calling you an ass hole but you could of avoided that if you wouold have told him what to do and to be honest I'd back anyone not just a paying customer, you were rude to him first, he just responded how he new how to I did'nt call you an asshole did I no I just thought you should know thgat the way you respond needs to have thought because some people take things differently. I have never said any tn=hing bad about you and that was not my intention you starteed this with your response to him it may not have been rude to you but he took it as rude so thats why he called you those names. I would defend you and I will I know your job is tough and much respect but he was lost and rather thatn saying no sarcasticly you could have pointed him in the right direction. I did'nt come here to do this and I did not ask him to leave me a trader rateing, so you are all wrong, and teh thing about money I said pertains to me the only reason I sell any of my animals is to pay for there food period so the whole money thing I said is acurate I do not do this to make a living I work full time and I am just a hobbiest that sells a few animals here and there to help my projects and feed my animals, I did not do this to affend anyone and I was offended thats why I was pissed. I dont just back paying customers, and none of you know me so only God can judge me, I was threatened with infractions then every one went off on me so I'm sorry I got pissed off. But I never called you an ass hole rich I just wanted you to see that you were rude First. He even said in the e-mail before you were no help to him that someone always has to ruin it for someone else meaning the people who took advantage of you guys in the first place he was'nt asking for perferntial treatment he was asking if you could do something for him. He did not know all you had to do is say post a good guy on BOI, but no you made him feel like an idiot. So you can say what you want and you feel how you want about me I have no motives behind this other than I was just thinking that if you did'nt want to be called an a hole all you had to do is just send him in the right direction. Thats all, I meant tell your groupies jumped in and tried to get me explunged from here then called me a liar and that I was a bad buisness man since I got pissed people get pissed all the freaken time and I thought thats what BOI was about getting frustrations out at least I see people doing it all the time, I do think he was in the wrong for the ass hole comments, But I also think you were in the wrong your a moderator and you should help people figure out what they need not belittle them by Say thing like you said that could make someone feel dumb appearently he did'nt know what to do thats why he asked you. You guys are rutheless, Its like talking to a hundred people who are the same person and I dont see why every one got all mad at me in the first place other than I got mad from someone trying tatle tail on me and then every one ripping me all i was trying to do was make you see the error in your ways. This all could of been avoided if you would have just helped him. So I'm sorry you all think I'm the Bad guy here you guys can all hate me I just think you were the one who could have avoided this whole thing rich and I have nothing against any one here it was a few here that pissed me off by acting like I was the bad guy appearently it made Double D mad enough to post so why would he have called you an asshole if he didnt feel like you were being one to him? I did not say anything bad about you other than you were rude to him first so think what you want sorry i HAD AN OPINION, I really think this got way out of hand and I never said you a bad guy Rich did I no, Just thought you handled it all wrong and I jumped all over by your hoodies so I got mad, SORRY" bUT YOU ALL MADE YOUR POINTS i WAS WRONG TO SAY ANYTHING, PERIOD AMERICA IS NO MORE!!!
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You know how many times we answer this question and many more that are asked over and over? I don't because it is asked repeatedly despite the many threads covering such topics. I think Rich's response was short and to the point. That doesn't equal rude. All of us here try to take the time to answer questions put forth but I'm not and I'm sure most of us aren't going to spend much time worrying about if someone can't handle the answer.
Gecko Euphoria said:
This all could of been avoided if you would have just helped him.
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Help him do what? He answered the question. The rules are pretty straightforward. The verification for the trader ratings cuts down on deceit.

The site does not endorse positive or negative transactions. Individuals do.
Gecko Euphoria said:
the Op is probably at work!!!! and I'm not bummed, man this is stupid,
you dont lik me fine, I get it, I am diappointed in this forum. Every one else can slam people talk smack but I have an opinion and get a little riled and I'm the devil. Man you guys need a life!!!!!
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So, you come on to someone's property tell them you don't like the way they behave . He should change his rules and your going to show him the errors of his ways. You are wondering why you are catching some slack? If it were me and depending on the day, I might have just thrown you off my property.
Gecko Euphoria said:
I assure you its worse than the way you are portraying it he only sent one message when he asked them to take care of the reply he was getting it was saying he was not logged in nothing about being a paying customer, then the message saying you should be a paying customer, then double d replied with thats a bummer, then web slave went off on him and it was very rude and out of context, I know I have the whole conversation and messages I just think he did not need be treated like he was he was only asking and he got the response and just said bummer, and didn't need to be responded to with such sarcasm he did'nt deserve it all he was doing was trying to leave a trader rateing he did nothing in which the way web slave reacted was warrented I asure you thatI have the whole thing on e-mail, I'd be glad to show you to. I dont like bashing people either but the first response would have been sufficient.
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The emails are posted it isn't worse, it is much less. That whole thing about it not being America anymore, Well I hate to tell you it has never been one where a Guest is allowed to throw stones at their host and expect nothing to be thrown back.

There is several very detailed threads about why the trader rating is setup the way it is. Paying for it wasn't the main reason why it is now limited to contributing members and up. I'm not going to take the time to spell it out any further(maybe that's rude) but the search function is your friend.
 
As someone else posted earlier the title of this on caught my eye. So I just finished reading the entire thread and have just one thing to say.

"MOMMY, MY HEAD HURTS, MAKE IT STOP".
 
There is a very common public perception in the industry that the BOI and fauna as a whole is a playground for a small group of people that get preferential treatment over everyone else and people do not want to come on here to post there transaction or information because they fear they will get bashed and teamed up on by the group of regulars on this site that have a long history of this behavior.

To make things worse, instead of reinforcing or expanding the idea of this being a legit place to post your concerns and transactions the mistakes were made of adding paid memberships and of taking it upon the site to "certifiy" "good guys". These two moves gave this site an overwhelming appearence of bias and being a paid members club that others are not welcome to be here. True or not this is a perception that people have.

It would have been good to solicite sponsors and thank them appropriately at some spot on the site if Rich felt the money was needed, but to put logos next to the names of contributors and restricting access to those who chose not to pay, after all the years of it being a free site simply makes this site look like a bunch of snobs and a private club, again. Bad descision.

By taking it upon yourself to tell everyone who is good and who is bad, instead of letting the BOI function as designed to do that, by being "proactive" and giving out certificates you again bias people and create a detrement to the very environment that you sought to foster.

I have not been a paying member of fauna for a couple years now. When I was on here I sold many animals to members and I have many positive threads and posts on here about me. I appreciate that. I also have one of the top levels of trader ratings on here with 100% positive comments. I have not gotten one since I left a couple years ago and yet I am still up there. I have sold many more animals since going back to the kingsnake classifieds but those people do not rate you on fauna as they do not have paid membership. That is fine. But, why give an advantage in deciding who gets the big positive press from this site by how much and wether or not they pay this site? Doesn't anyone see that as a problem?

Many of the people who created this business use kingsnake due to how much traffic it gets and they do not choose to use fauna because instead of it just being a sales platform, it is a club and it has more politics and arguments than any other site in our industry. Most people in this hobby or business want one or more of three things. 1) to find and buy good quality animals, 2) to sell their products, 3) to find info and chat about animals ina friendly environment. In my opinion this site has tried to be all those things to all people at one time or another but is now failing in all three areas.

At this time there are several major moves being made in government at all levels to block all importation of our animals, to prevent them from crossing state lines and to outlaw them outright. These moves all have the potential to end this hobby and business for good, overnight. Not one word on fauna or the BOI about that though as it all happens. Not one attempt on this site to rally people in this industy and prevent these things from happening. I felt strongly enough about it to email Rich to ask if he would do something, post some info on the home page, anything really! I received no reply and nothing was done. So lets be real and see the site for what it is. A site controlled by a small group of people who have a long history of pack behavior against outsiders. That is why not one named player or major company in this industry is utilizing this site or advertising here.
 
evansnakes said:
There is a very common public perception in the industry that the BOI and fauna as a whole is a playground for a small group of people that get preferential treatment over everyone else and people do not want to come on here to post there transaction or information because they fear they will get bashed and teamed up on by the group of regulars on this site that have a long history of this behavior.

To make things worse, instead of reinforcing or expanding the idea of this being a legit place to post your concerns and transactions the mistakes were made of adding paid memberships and of taking it upon the site to "certifiy" "good guys". These two moves gave this site an overwhelming appearence of bias and being a paid members club that others are not welcome to be here. True or not this is a perception that people have.

It would have been good to solicite sponsors and thank them appropriately at some spot on the site if Rich felt the money was needed, but to put logos next to the names of contributors and restricting access to those who chose not to pay, after all the years of it being a free site simply makes this site look like a bunch of snobs and a private club, again. Bad descision.

By taking it upon yourself to tell everyone who is good and who is bad, instead of letting the BOI function as designed to do that, by being "proactive" and giving out certificates you again bias people and create a detrement to the very environment that you sought to foster.

I have not been a paying member of fauna for a couple years now. When I was on here I sold many animals to members and I have many positive threads and posts on here about me. I appreciate that. I also have one of the top levels of trader ratings on here with 100% positive comments. I have not gotten one since I left a couple years ago and yet I am still up there. I have sold many more animals since going back to the kingsnake classifieds but those people do not rate you on fauna as they do not have paid membership. That is fine. But, why give an advantage in deciding who gets the big positive press from this site by how much and wether or not they pay this site? Doesn't anyone see that as a problem?

Many of the people who created this business use kingsnake due to how much traffic it gets and they do not choose to use fauna because instead of it just being a sales platform, it is a club and it has more politics and arguments than any other site in our industry. Most people in this hobby or business want one or more of three things. 1) to find and buy good quality animals, 2) to sell their products, 3) to find info and chat about animals ina friendly environment. In my opinion this site has tried to be all those things to all people at one time or another but is now failing in all three areas.

At this time there are several major moves being made in government at all levels to block all importation of our animals, to prevent them from crossing state lines and to outlaw them outright. These moves all have the potential to end this hobby and business for good, overnight. Not one word on fauna or the BOI about that though as it all happens. Not one attempt on this site to rally people in this industy and prevent these things from happening. I felt strongly enough about it to email Rich to ask if he would do something, post some info on the home page, anything really! I received no reply and nothing was done. So lets be real and see the site for what it is. A site controlled by a small group of people who have a long history of pack behavior against outsiders. That is why not one named player or major company in this industry is utilizing this site or advertising here.
Click to expand...

I use this site. And it works fine for me. I also use ks. Again works fine for me. You on the other hand have been posting the same snakes on ks for months. I guess it's not working well over there for you? Thats what this post is about huh? LMAO..
 
!!!

I'm still new enough to participating on this site that while I know it's ATR to start a new topic in an existing thread, I'm not sure where information about the pending legislation Evan references should be posted on the site.

But, if what he writes is accurate, I find it very alarming. It definitely seems to be an issue deserving of prompt, unified attention from the herp community regardless of site preference or affiliation. Evan, in whatever venue is appropriate here (and someone make sure to tell me where! ;)), can you please expand on any pending legislation that threatens our ability to even cross state lines with reptiles, let alone import/export them? Who has introduced this and why? Thanks for the information. It's a horrifying prospect.
 
evansnakes said:
To make things worse, instead of reinforcing or expanding the idea of this being a legit place to post your concerns and transactions the mistakes were made of adding paid memberships and of taking it upon the site to "certifiy" "good guys". These two moves gave this site an overwhelming appearence of bias and being a paid members club that others are not welcome to be here. True or not this is a perception that people have.
Click to expand...

The site doesn't certify good guys the members do. Any member, paid contributor or not can vote on the GCC. Very misleading statements.

KS is no different. You pay a membership to post ADs. The forums are different. The proof is this thread is here. If it were there it would be gone before the first reply. Jeff wouldn't tolerate being called names on his own site.

It would have been good to solicite sponsors and thank them appropriately at some spot on the site if Rich felt the money was needed, but to put logos next to the names of contributors and restricting access to those who chose not to pay, after all the years of it being a free site simply makes this site look like a bunch of snobs and a private club, again. Bad descision.
Click to expand...


You have to pay for perks on the other site too.
By taking it upon yourself to tell everyone who is good and who is bad, instead of letting the BOI function as designed to do that, by being "proactive" and giving out certificates you again bias people and create a detrement to the very environment that you sought to foster.
Click to expand...

The customer still votes not the site.


I have not been a paying member of fauna for a couple years now. When I was on here I sold many animals to members and I have many positive threads and posts on here about me. I appreciate that. I also have one of the top levels of trader ratings on here with 100% positive comments. I have not gotten one since I left a couple years ago and yet I am still up there. I have sold many more animals since going back to the kingsnake classifieds but those people do not rate you on fauna as they do not have paid membership. That is fine. But, why give an advantage in deciding who gets the big positive press from this site by how much and wether or not they pay this site? Doesn't anyone see that as a problem?
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They don't. That's because your limited to what you can state in the forums.

Second, They do have to pay a fee to Advertise.


That is fine. But, why give an advantage in deciding who gets the big positive press from this site by how much and wether or not they pay this site? Doesn't anyone see that as a problem?
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The BOI is the big positive press.

That's a complete fabrication. The BOI is open to post in and so is the GCC to all. Paid members are banned,suspend and held to same standards of non contributing members.

Just because Rich left this thread up doesn't mean isn't an open invitation to come crap all over him and this site. You already did that round in the feedback section a couple of years ago.
 
John, thank you for reinforcing the very points I just made. I posted a very emotionless, to the point, factual post and you attacked me with something stupid, off topic and petty. Just like this board is famous for. If you see my posts on ks then you would know that I have sold plenty of very nice animals lately, (female caramel albino last week, female super pastel Friday, female pinstripe het pied 2 weeks ago, female pastels last week, male and female mojaves two weeks ago, male bumble bee last week, male spiders, male and female yellow bellies, male and female albinos, male and female cinnamon pastels and more just in the past month) in fact I have dropped my doom and gloom impression of the economy quite a lot due to just how good things have been of late. So in the future, bring facts to this board as is the TOS and drop your sad little jealous attacks.

Lynn, the reason I posted it, and it is not really off the topic, is to respond to the threads originator concerning this sites creator and owner toward this site and the industry as a whole.
 
timebider said:
I'm still new enough to participating on this site that while I know it's ATR to start a new topic in an existing thread, I'm not sure where information about the pending legislation Evan references should be posted on the site.

But, if what he writes is accurate, I find it very alarming. It definitely seems to be an issue deserving of prompt, unified attention from the herp community regardless of site preference or affiliation. Evan, in whatever venue is appropriate here (and someone make sure to tell me where! ;)), can you please expand on any pending legislation that threatens our ability to even cross state lines with reptiles, let alone import/export them? Who has introduced this and why? Thanks for the information. It's a horrifying prospect.
Click to expand...

There are several threads pertaining to this located on the site.


http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128150
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126190
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126030
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126092
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126470
 
Dennis, your responses do not address my posts. By taking things out of context and replying to one sentence you are changing the intent of the words as written to fit what you want them to. Where am I attacking or crapping on anything or anyone and when have I ever? I posted a very factual post, that stated my impressions and the thoughts of countless people that I talk to in this business all the time. Instead of taking it and working with it to address the problems at hand or to improve the site, you would rather be lazy and petty and attack me for my post. Whatever man, I did not post it for you and don't care what your response is. You know for a fatc that things that I commented on are true and that is likely why you skipped over the bulk of what I wrote to pick apart just a couple sentences. There was nothing personal in what I said. This thread opened a topic and I responded to it. If you don't like it, shut it down or keep attacking people who dissagree with you, like usual.

As to the legislative actions, every other site of weight in the biz including kingsnake, put headlines on pages, alerts, links, info, sent emails, started petitions up and more. Fauna did nothing.
 
People starting threads on the legislation is nothing. There needs to be links and headlines on pages telling EVERYONE what is happening or this site can just be remembered as another greedy site that was able to sell product and take money but too lazy to help keep this industry and hobby alive.
 
evansnakes said:
Dennis, your responses do not address my posts. By taking things out of context and replying to one sentence you are changing the intent of the words as written to fit what you want them to. Where am I attacking or crapping on anything or anyone and when have I ever? I posted a very factual post, that stated my impressions and the thoughts of countless people that I talk to in this business all the time. Instead of taking it and working with it to address the problems at hand or to improve the site, you would rather be lazy and petty and attack me for my post. Whatever man, I did not post it for you and don't care what your response is. You know for a fatc that things that I commented on are true and that is likely why you skipped over the bulk of what I wrote to pick apart just a couple sentences. There was nothing personal in what I said. This thread opened a topic and I responded to it. If you don't like it, shut it down or keep attacking people who dissagree with you, like usual.

As to the legislative actions, every other site of weight in the biz including kingsnake, put headlines on pages, alerts, links, info, sent emails, started petitions up and more. Fauna did nothing.
Click to expand...

I took it paragraph by paragraph and disputed the points that were inaccurate. If I were lazy I wouldn't have bothered.
 
Holy hell....

Ok.. first off, it looks a bit to me like Double D came on, started some :censored:, then disappeared. This may be intentional or not, but if you are going to start a thread, you'd think you'd come back to check and see what's going on with the thread you posted.

Second, Double D, don't start a thread making acusations and saying you have proof without providing the proof.

If being a dick was BOI worthy, I'd be famous.
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As would I. lol

As opposed to going nuts over a failed trader rating, why wouldn't they just post in/start a good guy thread? I pay more attention to good guy/bad guy threads than I do the trader ratings, anyway.
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I think most people do.

What I care about is the way a customer of mine was treated if you dont think its bad oh well and it goes here it was from a buisness transaction, I have no problem with buisiness I'm sold out of 08' animlas and out of 300+ thats pretty damn good,
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Is it just me, or do most people feel the need to talk about how well business is for them when they are in defense mode?

Oh well whats done is done take care, to all of you I appologize for being so wound up I just am a very passionate person so I'am sorry if I offended any one.
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It's nice that you keep apologizing, but you need to be more professional as a business owner.

Was that Donnie thought he was rude and I just wanted to say he should be a little more considerate to everyone not just paying customers and treat people nice thats all.
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I can honestly say I've never been mistreated by Webslave, and I'm sure plenty of other people can say the same.

...only means I was frustrated the way people took it and treated the situation was also out of context I got mad don't mean nothing about me or my service.
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Actually yes, it does. The way you act in situations like this makes many wonder how your service is.


I promise you I have the post, I even offered it up to a few people via email.
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Don't offer it by e-mail, post it on here. It's easier for everyone.

As I said I dont care if you buy from me and as far as selling I've spent plenty of money that I know theres people who will sell, why you keep dragging this through the mud get over it!!!!
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I have to ask, how many posts do you have on this thread?

...that I was a bad buisness man since I got pissed people get pissed all the freaken time and I thought thats what BOI was about getting frustrations out at least I see people doing it all the time...
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First off, no matter how pissed you get, you have to conduct yourself in a calm, professional manner as a business man. The way you have been ranting on this thread does not make you look good at all.

Second off, that is not what the B.O.I. is about. It is about posting your experience and oppinion about a trader or business. Yes, you see people doing it all the time, but they aren't supposed to and they are constantly warned by both the moderators and other members, even non paying ones. The moderators, from what I've seen, do take action when the warnings are not heeded (spelling?).

Man, I'm sorry, but I can PROVE that the squirrel did not come from me. Any squirrel I would ship out would have a .17 HMR caliber bullet hole through it...
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I thought the post from Tattoo was funny, but I seriously almost pissed myself when I saw this post.

Honestly the only reason I posted was I new my name would come up and I new he had posted the boi to the moderator.
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I welcome anyone to correct me if I'm wrong, considering I haven't looked back at the beginning of the thread since I started reading, but I didn't see your name come up until after you posted.

If you see my posts on ks then you would know that I have sold plenty of very nice animals lately, (female caramel albino last week, female super pastel Friday, female pinstripe het pied 2 weeks ago, female pastels last week, male and female mojaves two weeks ago, male bumble bee last week, male spiders, male and female yellow bellies, male and female albinos, male and female cinnamon pastels and more just in the past month) in fact I have dropped my doom and gloom impression of the economy quite a lot due to just how good things have been of late
Click to expand...
Again, defending themselves with how good their business is doing? Is this a common practice amongst traders?

Ok.. so.... I don't think that Rich a.k.a. Webslave was in any way rude. A bad guy thread on the B.O.I. was going too far. Perhaps something on the Hell forum would be better or perhaps the Site Service forum.
 
Quote:
If you see my posts on ks then you would know that I have sold plenty of very nice animals lately, (female caramel albino last week, female super pastel Friday, female pinstripe het pied 2 weeks ago, female pastels last week, male and female mojaves two weeks ago, male bumble bee last week, male spiders, male and female yellow bellies, male and female albinos, male and female cinnamon pastels and more just in the past month) in fact I have dropped my doom and gloom impression of the economy quite a lot due to just how good things have been of late

Again, defending themselves with how good their business is doing? Is this a common practice amongst traders?


If somebody posts absolute shit about you with no foundation in reality on the BOI, is it then not EXACTLY what I am supposed to do to post point by point FACTS to reinforce what I am saying and disprove what they are saying????
 
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