INFO: UPS-will they honor their agreement?

Oh, I should add that the dent in the lid of the styrofoam of the DOA's box was caused by the cup as it laid on its side. The dent exactly matched with where the cup was as it laid on its side.

Yvonne,
I think the point that was being made is that a BOI thread entitled INFO: UPS-will they honor their agreement? may be inappropriate because UPS does not guarantee live arrival, the shipper does. UPS's guarantee is that the package will get there when it is supposed to. The insurance is simply insuring the stated value of the package in the event of loss of (or possibly destruction of) the shipment. A few of the points you made do bear looking at, however: The dent in the corner of the box - was the integrity of the box damaged (cardboard torn/styro insulation broken) to a degree that the animal was exposed to extreme temperatures? You refer to a dent in the styro top caused by the deli cup - that doesn't happen easily. you could take all of the packaging out of that box (except the deli cup) and shake it vigorously, and not get serious compression of the styro. Could the dent have been there prior to shipping (was the box/packaging new)? You stated there were 3 heat packs - what are the dimensions of the box, and where was it shipped from? Lastly, with the increase in volume seen this time of year, many people/breeders/dealers suspend shipping the week before Xmas til after the new year, just to be on the safe side. even without gross mishandling, the chance for damage to the box increases due to the sheer volume (much of the movement is automated). Nobody likes hearing about animals dying in transit, and opening the box to find your new animal dead is awful...but (going back to the title of the thread) live arrival is the shipper's guarantee. That is the person that must honor it (if there is sufficient evidence of mishandling, they can attempt a claim with UPS)
Happy Holidays

1. The box contained plenty of newspaper and the styrofoam insulation had a lid. The fit inside was too tight to freely allow movement. The inside of the lid had a dent in it from the animal's deli cup. This amount of shifting given the above circumstances is phenomenal.

Isn’t it possible that the deli was not placed exactly in the middle and the dent was made when the lid was placed? I can see that happening rather than a light deli-cup containing a lizard making a dent on the Styrofoam due to shifting. But of course this is just speculation on my part.

2. There is a deep dent in one corner of the box.

Same as above…

3. The animal had not been fed for 48 hours in preparation for shipping, yet there was vomit all over the inside of the cup.

You are absolutely positive it was vomit (and not diarrhea)? It’s been several years now since I kept and bred geckos and other lizards but I don’t remember ever having one vomit. Not saying that it can’t happen, just that I’ve never seen it.

Now, I've only recieved 6 other shipments of animals, so I am comparing what I know with what I saw with this shipment. The differences are:

1. All 6 of my previous shipments contained plenty of newspaper to disallow free movement of the contents and had styrofoam insulation. The difference in the appearance of the freshly opened box between my fragile infant Panther chameleons and other reptiles' boxes and this DOA box is the MAJOR shifting. NONE of my previous live arrivals had shifting like this.

Again, with all that newspaper for cushion it seems that in order to shift that deli from the middle to one extreme someone would have had to repeatedly shaken it around on purpose. I’ve seen some rough handling of boxes upon arrival at the UPS depot (when they fall while unloading the truck) but even that doesn’t seem enough to displace the deli.

Anyways, it’s just an opinion. One way or the other there’s nothing you can do about it now. As far as the insurance goes I agree with what has been said. You can buy insurance but it’s just for damaged or lost packages, perishables (live animals included) are not covered. It’s not that UPS has been taking this person’s money, they were just providing insurance in the event something happened to the package.

I’m sorry about what happened.

Regards.

Originally Posted by The BoidSmith

You are absolutely positive it was vomit (and not diarrhea)?

After reviewing the photo of the gecko several times, I would have to say it looks like diarrhea and NOT vomit. The only time I have ever seen this was when geckos were exposed to extreme heat.

In my opinion, shipping close to Christmas via any common carrier is rather risky. Many will hire on part time help during this time of season simply to try to move all of the extra cargo as quickly as they can just to be able to keep up with the overwhelming increased volume. Those temporary helpers are just not going to be reading labels to try to determine the contents at all. They will not see the FRAGILE, LIVE ANIMALS, or KEEP WARM labels. They are hired to get boxes moving any way they can as quickly as they can. YOUR package is just another box among thousands they handle every day, as far as they are concerned

So there are three problems immediately evident at this time of year as far as shipping live animals is concerned:

1. Largely unskilled, untrained, and unconcerned labor is being utilized to move cargo.
2. Delays in reaching the destination are quite likely due to the increase in volume, regardless of the additional help.
3. This is generally the coldest time of year in most parts of the country. Any additional time in transit is NOT a good idea for the health of the animals.

Any one of the above can likely be a problem as far as shipping live cargo is concerned. In many instances, YOUR box may be subjected to all three.

Personally I stop shipping via the common carriers around the 10th of December every year and do not resume again until after the new year. If someone is not willing to wait, then they can either accept full responsibility for the condition of the contents when it arrives, or they have to buy their animals from someone else.

Also, bear in mind that even though the airlines will generally be the safest method to ship this time of year, the USPS can commandeer ANY plane owned by ANY company in order to move the US mail if they need to do so. Which means that YOUR package has a lower priority for getting to its destination.

Originally Posted by hhmoore

Yvonne,
I think the point that was being made is that a BOI thread entitled INFO: UPS-will they honor their agreement? may be inappropriate because UPS does not guarantee live arrival, the shipper does. UPS's guarantee is that the package will get there when it is supposed to. The insurance is simply insuring the stated value of the package in the event of loss of (or possibly destruction of) the shipment. A few of the points you made do bear looking at, however: The dent in the corner of the box - was the integrity of the box damaged (cardboard torn/styro insulation broken) to a degree that the animal was exposed to extreme temperatures? You refer to a dent in the styro top caused by the deli cup - that doesn't happen easily. you could take all of the packaging out of that box (except the deli cup) and shake it vigorously, and not get serious compression of the styro. Could the dent have been there prior to shipping (was the box/packaging new)? You stated there were 3 heat packs - what are the dimensions of the box, and where was it shipped from? Lastly, with the increase in volume seen this time of year, many people/breeders/dealers suspend shipping the week before Xmas til after the new year, just to be on the safe side. even without gross mishandling, the chance for damage to the box increases due to the sheer volume (much of the movement is automated). Nobody likes hearing about animals dying in transit, and opening the box to find your new animal dead is awful...but (going back to the title of the thread) live arrival is the shipper's guarantee. That is the person that must honor it (if there is sufficient evidence of mishandling, they can attempt a claim with UPS)
Happy Holidays

Yeah, in my ignorance I didn't know UPS assumes no responsibility for live arrival, so this thread is definately misnamed. I made/make no arguments with that and I'd change it if I could. I feel that this thread is properly placed in BOI though. My major beef is that there is ample evidence that they grossly mishandled the package. I feel that the fact that the package had "LIVE" written on all sides made it a target for some fruatrated holiday employee. I wanted to make that point in my first post, but I managed to dilute my own meaning in my zeal to sound as impartial as I could.

The shipper is sending me an animal worth SIGNIFICANTLY more for free; he does guarantee live arrival and feels awful about what happened. But it is not his fault! I feel bad about accepting the new animal and said no at first because *everything* was right with his packaging of that gecko. That animal should NOT have died. He very strongly encouraged me not to worry about the added cost to him, just because of what happened. This is why I am so concerned he should get his money back from UPS. This is an ethical person I'm dealing with, and I believe him when he says the box, the styrofoam and the cup were brand new and unused at shipping time.

We were so interested in waiting for the right moment weather wise that I really didn't think about shipping around the holidays. You can bet on it that I will never again make that mistake.

Okay, to answer your questions Harald...there is a big dent in one corner, but the cardboard has no large holes or tears from the dent. The glue in the corners managed to hold it all together.
The outside box dimensions are: 12"x12" square, by 9 1/2" tall. Inside the styrofoam, dimensions are: 10"x10"x7".
There are a total of 10 holes for oxygen, so this should not have been an issue with those heat packs.
The dent in the styrofoam gave me pause too, Harald. It takes a heck of a hit to dent styrofoam with something so light as that deli cup with a small lizard inside. The fact that the box survived with little damage is not unusual in my view, as the box was probably hit more than once to cause the death of this sturdy gecko. I say that dent in the box corner was the first hit that shifted the gecko's cup to one side on its side, and that the dent in the Styrofoam from the cup was a second hit the package recieved - the package was flat this time, so the box was undamaged, unlike its contents.

The lizard arrived with its own vomit in flecks all over its body and the lid is obscured with vomit...I think its vomit because it smells like it.

Originally Posted by The BoidSmith

Isn’t it possible that the deli was not placed exactly in the middle and the dent was made when the lid was placed? I can see that happening rather than a light deli-cup containing a lizard making a dent on the Styrofoam due to shifting. But of course this is just speculation on my part.

I have had several long conversations with the shipper both before and after this incident, and I have absolutely no reason to disbelieve him when he expressed shock at how far the cup moved. He stated it was exactly and firmly in the middle of the container when it went out. He is sending a replacement animal worth significantly more after the holidays.
You're right about the deli cup and its weight managing to make a dent in the Styrofoam. Shoot, let me snap a picture of it here...I was surprised too, but the fit is perfect.

Originally Posted by The BoidSmith

You are absolutely positive it was vomit (and not diarrhea)? It’s been several years now since I kept and bred geckos and other lizards but I don’t remember ever having one vomit. Not saying that it can’t happen, just that I’ve never seen it.

You know, it's yellowish and doesn't smell like BM. It smells like my snake's vomit when I had problems with my ATB throwing up. This gecko's last meal was a pinkie mouse. Basically, it smelled kind of like bad meat. No, I am not absolutely positive because I've never run into this with a gecko before either.

Originally Posted by The BoidSmith

Again, with all that newspaper for cushion it seems that in order to shift that deli from the middle to one extreme someone would have had to repeatedly shaken it around on purpose. I’ve seen some rough handling of boxes upon arrival at the UPS depot (when they fall while unloading the truck) but even that doesn’t seem enough to displace the deli.

The deli was displaced though...there's a dent in a corner of the box, and there's a dent where the deli cup lid touched the container's top. The heat packs ended up directly under the deli cup, come to think of it. The shipper wouldn't have placed them that way but that's where they were when I opened the box. Maybe the packs gave extra weight to the second hit I was talking about above.

Originally Posted by The BoidSmith

I’m sorry about what happened.
Regards.

Oh, me too. I've been in tears since Friday over that poor little creature.

Originally Posted by Golden Gate Geckos

After reviewing the photo of the gecko several times, I would have to say it looks like diarrhea and NOT vomit. The only time I have ever seen this was when geckos were exposed to extreme heat.

I don't know...maybe it is! I have never been exposed to gecko diarrhea. I've been exposed to BM, and this doesn't smell 'poopy'. The closest I can come is that it smells like dead animal. This gecko had last eaten 48 hours before shipping, and it had eaten a pinkie mouse. It could have been an incompletely digested pinkie that came out as diarrhea, I don't know.
It was your observation here that reminded me that I saw those heat packs directly under the cup when I opened the box, Marcia. (see my above post)That's where they ended up, and the shipper absolutely would know better. I was ready at work there with my temp gun and I shot his body immediately after opening the cup; it was around 80 degrees with his tail at 92 degrees. My memory of the exact numbers is imperfect because of the awful emotions I was feeling at the time, but I remember his temps weren't wildly high.

I have read most of this thred.My 2 cents are 3 heat packs were way to much,and death could have been the gecko got to hot.I have used UPS for years with 1000s of geckos shipped.UPS in my eyes is not at fault.To many heat packs in a small box.THe shipped guarantees live arrival not UPS.

Originally Posted by Rich Z

In my opinion, shipping close to Christmas via any common carrier is rather risky. Many will hire on part time help during this time of season simply to try to move all of the extra cargo as quickly as they can just to be able to keep up with the overwhelming increased volume. Those temporary helpers are just not going to be reading labels to try to determine the contents at all. They will not see the FRAGILE, LIVE ANIMALS, or KEEP WARM labels. They are hired to get boxes moving any way they can as quickly as they can. YOUR package is just another box among thousands they handle every day, as far as they are concerned

Yeah, in retrospect this should have been a major concern. I am such a complete idiot for not thinking of this...I was so focussed in on waiting until just the right time weather wise. I was willing to wait as long as it took until conditions were perfect, and I really thought they were. My own stupidity and ignorance sickens me, look what happened, I cost this poor creature his life. Yes, yes we can try to blame it on UPS, we can try to blame it on the shipper but it won't make me feel any less responsible. The end result is still that this irreplacable life was extinguished. I hold myself personally responsible for my own damn ignorance.

Originally Posted by Rich Z

So there are three problems immediately evident at this time of year as far as shipping live animals is concerned:[*]This is generally the coldest time of year in most parts of the country. Any additional time in transit is NOT a good idea for the health of the animals.

He actually arrived an hour early...I didn't realize what a stroke of luck that was...
Again, I just wasn't thinking of the holidays here

Originally Posted by Rich Z

Also, bear in mind that even though the airlines will generally be the safest method to ship this time of year, the USPS can commandeer ANY plane owned by ANY company in order to move the US mail if they need to do so. Which means that YOUR package has a lower priority for getting to its destination.

Wow, this I didn't know! That's BAD news there...