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Inbreeding taking a toll on albinos?

The BoidSmith

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As far as I understand albino boas (Kahl strain) started from one originally wild caught animal. It is reasonable to believe then that unless the breeders introduced new blood (with "normal" boas every now and then) there is probably quite a bit of inbreeding going on. From a strictly economical perspective, introducing new genes in the pool will set the breeder back 3-4 years before being able to produce albinos again from the hetero offspring. In my opinion though it is worth doing it in order to avoid inherent problems related to inbreeding. Below are three current ads selling albino boas either blind from one or from both eyes. One of the sellers states it was traumatic and not genetic ,and it might very well be. But these are not the first sight impaired albinos (there was also a snow) I have seen advertised this year, regrettably I did not save the rest in my computer. Most well known breeders keep good records of the "pedigree" of their animals, I only hope the rest start to do something similar before this turns into something worse.

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=8&de=96130
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=8&de=98442
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=8&de=101154
 
Well, this is really odd. I came mack with the idea of copying and pasting the ads in case they were removed and oddly enough the first two ads had been already deleted. Anyways, one of them was offering a baby albino boa blind from one eye. The other one was offering 2.2 albino boas all of them blind. If I'm not mistaken they were asking $500 a piece OBO. The third ad reads as follows:

When she was a neonate, her mother "sat" on her and ruptured the eye, the vet has given her a clean bill of health and the eye is there, but doesn't work! It will NOT affect her breeding or eating in any way! She is about 24" long and very healthy! There's NOTHING to worry about!

According to the seller in this case it is not a inherited anomaly but rather a rather the result of a trauma.

Regards.
 
Alvaro,
The seller can delete their ad, so eventhough you copy and paste the link, link doesn't work if the ad is delete. Anyway, Rick Staub had post his opinion once on Kingsnake Boa Forum regarding blindness in Albino and Inbreeding. Here's the link

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=29386,30100

In my opinion, people just make excuse w/ blind Albino. While I still don't know what's the reason, I have seen a litter of 16 albino babies, 1 out of 16 was blind, and other were not... Just something that Albino breeder has to deal with... Nothing is perfect, you know...;)
 
Also, if you request the seller to send you a picture of the blind eye, you will realize that it's not because the mom "sat" on the baby... It just the eye didn't develop for some reason... It's like a tried eye...
 
Albino's ???

I think the one thing people have to understand is that Albino anything is NOT what nature intended. Its a flaw. Nature did not intend that species to be yellow, white, orange with red eyes. Even the healthiest Albino's IMO will never be superior to normals as far as health goes. Too much inbreeding and you get genetic flawed animals.

Let me give you a example: I spoke to Mark Bell several years ago at the Ohio Reptile Show about some "imperfect" Albino Burmese. He flat out suggested they be not used for breeding and it was due to inbreeding. He decribed the whole Albino genetics to me and it made a world of sense.

IMO one eyed Albino Boas ARE a flaw and I agee with John that I highly doubt it was due to the mother.

Here's another example: I know a well known breeder who bred a one eyed Albino to a completely unrelated Het. Albino female. Know what the results were ?? 19 babies (I believe) 9 normal hets and 10 Albino's. Of the 10 Albino's 5 had one eye !! Tell me thats not genetic and CAN'T be passed on.

I also seen a few years ago where another respected breeder stated that Albino's are a flaw and one eyed Albino's can pass this flaw on. I agreed with him and his statements. But I lost ALL respect for this person about 6 months later. After awhile, I saw where he went back and the same forum and now stated it wasnt proven to carry on to the offspring. Now, why did he change his thoughts on the matter ?? It took me a whole 2 minutes to figure that out. He had a one eyed Albino for sale in the classifieds !!

Thats why with my Albino projects, Ive gotten unrelated hets, Albinos from the established lines and from WC NEW bloodlines AND out breed for some hets. I had a fellow breeder ask why I was wasting my normal females on Het. Albino's and not using them for some of my other higher end projects instead. Daniel's comment above answered that. I want to have a strong line and NO short cuts will be used. BTW, NO I will not name names of the breeders above. 1) I dont have permission from the breeder who told me his results and 2) I didnt state the other statement to start a flame war. Take it as you will. I mind my own business. But, I used that example as only to show that anyone selling flawed or imperfect Albinos as otherwise healthy and it not being a genetic flaw, to me either knows no better or is trying to make a sale to a unknowning customer (A rip off in my book). They fall back on the fact, no one has proved it to be a flaw, as a excuse. They know better, trust me.

So, here's the big question you have to ask yourself. Would you want to fork over alot of cash with that breeder ?? and lets say a breeder had 19 Albinos and one showed the flaw. How can you tell the other healthy appearing Albino's arent flawed as well ?? Just cause you cant see it doesnt mean its not there. Enlarged hearts, Livers, infertility. Thats just some of the things you could possibly have.

My advise is to be careful who you buy your Albino's from and do the work. Its a great gene (no matter the species) and hard work is the only way to insure a strong line. You get what you pay for. Well, thats my .02 for the week.
 
Guess what did I get in my mail box today?

>From: "Neil Gubitz" <[email protected]>
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: albino
>Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:12:26 -0500
>
>This is a message from Neil Gubitz at FaunaClassifieds Forums ( http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/index.php ). The FaunaClassifieds Forums owners cannot accept any responsibility for the contents of the email.
>
>To email Neil Gubitz, you can use this online form:
>http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/member.php?action=mailform&userid=840
>
>OR, by email:
>mailto:[email protected]
>
>This is the message:
>
>Sorry, John.... this particular animal underwent TWO surgeries to fix her "sat-on" eye!....
>It's nice to see, however, that you're willing to tell people EXACTLY what happened, when you don't even have a clue, huh??.... I guess some things never change....
>
>Neil Gubitz
>Tampa Snake Pit
I guess someone doesn't understand what does "IN MY OPINION" mean.
As per Rich Staub, blindness in Albino caused by absence of melanin in the eye. His opinion shed a light over me. One reason that albinism is sensitive to light because lack of melanin. Since they are not "prefer" to expose to light, they could produce offsprings that don't have eyes. Just like there is a type of fish I believe called "cave fish". They live in deep ocean where day light doesn't reach to. They are generally born blind.
While blindness in Albino may not caused by inbreeding, I still believe that blind Albino SHALL NOT be use in breeding. Albino is already a recessive gene, why should we make it worse...
Again, this is just my OPINION. I am not a scientist, or a doctor....
 
It wouldn't work like that... the baby's genes don't know whether or not the parent is using its eyes, so if they can, they're going to go ahead and make a perfectly normal eye. In an example used in a couple genetics books I have, just because hundreds of generations of Jewish boys have been circumcised doesn't mean that they'll eventually be born with reduced foreskins.
Inbreeding just has the tendancy to 'collect' any bad genes that happen to be in the founder animals. For every defect we can see, there are internal ones that probably never come to light. However, not all inbreeding produces defective animals, it's sort of a matter of chance. There are still plenty of albino strains of snakes without any known defects.
But it is responsible for breeders to outbreed to avoid defects, they should know that! Especially with so many new Boas coming in!

Erin Benner

As a note, the cave fish thing goes like this: in a large population of fish living in caves, a few are going to have freak mutations that reduce their eyes. Normally this would be a disadvantage, but since their eyes aren't being used, it's actually an advantavge because they aren't wasting energy making a normal eye. This tiny advantage manages to spread through the cave's tiny gene pool, and after thousands of years, all the fish have reduced eyes. Whew!
 
A breeder of leopard geckos (whom I respect and trust) told me that he produces all of his baby albino leopard geckos through Albino to unrelated het breedings. It was HIS belief that it produced stronger, healthier, babies than an albino to albino breeding. My limited recolection of college genetics told me that this made perfect sense and I admired that he was more concerned with producing quality over quantity. Note I said HIS belief. I am not trying to step on the toes of anyone who breeds albino to albino. It just makes sense to me. As others have said, albinism is a genetic mutation, or a flaw. The more flaws you ad to the mix the more flaws you risk turning out.

Steve Schindler
 
This post was meant to be a personal concern about hereditary defects that currently show-up in albino boas, particularly blindness. How many “normal” blind boas do we currently see up for sale? How many blind boas of any of the other morphs? As Joe clearly stated it, there is currently no doubt the problem is hereditary and should be taken seriously by current as well as future breeders. Again, introducing new blood will set a breeder a few years back in his goals of producing albinos. Although bad from an economical perspective, one should try to avoid inbreeding as much as possible by introducing new genes in the pool. As was also stated, inbreeding is not always bad, as long as the good traits are the ones expressed. The seller in this case clearly stated the problem was due to a trauma, information given to him by the original breeder of the boa in question. It was not the intention of this post to question that assertion. Again, this thread pretended to voice my concern towards the breeders, not the brokers (although they should have complete information of the animals that are up for sale). What was really disappointing was the fact that the two other ads were deleted a few hours after this thread was posted (maybe just coincidence), now I know that in the future I should copy and paste the ads. Again, this last ad was the only one that stayed. A few hours later another ad was posted, which shows some boa breeders are on top of the problem and are being conscientious on their breeding programs. That’s commendable.

[QUOTED]Posted by “X” on June 10, 2003 at 20:13:53
These are some extra nice baby albinos showing nice red and pink color. I have animals from two different and unrelated litters. Albinos $1200 ea. hets $500pr. Overnight door to door shipping available and all forms of payment are accepted. [/QUOTE]
 
Just because I am the curious sort . . .

"Sorry, John.... this particular animal underwent TWO surgeries to fix her "sat-on" eye!...."

I wonder why all the fuss to fix this is being undertaken if, as the original seller stated:

"It will NOT affect her breeding or eating in any way! She is about 24" long and very healthy! There's NOTHING to worry about!"


However, I don't have any doubt whatsoever that there are genetically linked deformities that are just waiting to pop out of the more commonly bred animals (ball pythons, cornsnakes, etc.), and inbreeding them in excess will undoubtedly bring those deformities to the surface quicker. I also agree with the idea that, even though the previous is true, there are still strains of albinism that have shown absolutely NONE of the types of deformites that are seen in others.

So, my blanket statement is that we probably shouldn't make blanket statements about albinistic animals per se. Instead, we ought to focus on eliminating the breeding of those animals which DO show the defect, and refrain from breeding the animals which might also be carrying the gene due to a familial tie to the affected specimens. IF, as we try to eradicate the defect through controlled breeding techniques, we find the defect popping up in other lines of albinistic animals, THEN one could make a causational relationship to the albinistic genes and the optical deformities.

Right now, all we know is that some albinos are the products of inbreeding, and many of them have eye defects. What we don't know is if the albinism is the cause or if it is the inbreeding from lines that just happen to have carried that hidden defect.
 
Darin,

Just curious what albino strain and what species are you referring to when you make this statement ??

"I also agree with the idea that, even though the previous is true, there are still strains of albinism that have shown absolutely NONE of the types of deformites that are seen in others."

Ive seen Kinked Albino Ball Pythons, Kinked and deformed Albino Leo's, one eyed Albino Boas, defected Albino Burmese, Albino horned frogs missing feet or arms and trust me I can add more. This is what I can think of off the top of my head.

The key word in your phrase is "shown". I have yet to see a deformed Albino Retic. Does that mean their strong Albinos ?? Heck no. Im sure youll eventually hear of them not being good breeders (fertility) or die at a young age. ALL of them ?? NO. But, just because it doesnt show it, doesnt mean its not present.

Out breeding IS the key to produce the strongest Albino's possible. To me (as countless others) know even the strongest Albino will never compare to a strong normal. Even a imported Albino that hasnt been inbreed still isnt comparable to a strong normal as far as overall health. Why ?? Nature didnt intend that species to be that color and in narture are doomed for more reasons than one.

"What we don't know is if the albinism is the cause or if it is the inbreeding from lines that just happen to have carried that hidden defect."

I disagree Albinism is the cause and with all the breedings that have taken place on the various species, it shows up. To me too much inbreeding just brings it out in a visual sense. Example: How many one eyed Anery, Hypo or striped Boas do you see ?? No their numbers are just as great (if not greater) than Albino Boas. How many defected Lab Burms do you see in comparsion to Albino's ?? How many defected Hypo Leos compared to Albinos ?? How many kinked Pastel Jungles or Ghost Ball Pythons floating around ?? Now these are produced in just about the same numbers as Albino Balls and with Pastel Jungles more so.

I cant convince you Darin and thats not my goal. Its already proven to me. Thats why with the different Ball Morphs Im working with, the Albino's have been taken the most cautious approach to insure strong lines. Dont take what Ive stated the wrong way Darin, thats not my intent, I just disagree with the statements.
 
I have never seen a deformed albino Kenyan sand boa. I'll admit they're relatively new (10 years) and people started outcrossing them to anerys almost as soon as they were introduced.
For the record, I have a normal Brazillian rainbow boa who was born with one eye, so it DOES happen. Maybe most people put flawed normals down but try and make a buck off of flawed morphs? Just a theory.
And, of course, eye problems don't have to be linked to an amelanistic gene. The most famous morph with an eye problem is the bug-eyed leucisitic Texas rat. I don't know if it affects their vision or not, but it's sure not normal!
Maybe we all should be inquiring how outbred a breeder's stock is when we make a purchase, especially a big investment like albino BC's. I have a few books that say inbreeding probably subtly affects fertility and life span.

Erin Benner
 
Joe,

Let me give you just one example that is commonly recognized by everyone in the herp industry: The cornsnake.

I breed corns, and I have NEVER seen a cornsnake detrimentally affected by albinism in ANY way. I've never seen an amel, snow, butter, or any other albinistic corn that was born with any noticeable defect of the eye, and I have never noticed them to be less hearty than any other cornsnake morph.

I have never seen a one-eyed amel, but I have seen several anerythristics and normals with one eye. I'm sure they're out there, but I've never seen an amel one. I've seen kinked amels, but never at a rate that was any different than in other morphs.

Does that prove that amelanism is a "good" gene to have floating around in other species? Not at all, but it tells me that the concept of amelanism being a "bad" gene in all reptiles is simply not 100% accurate. There is no way that a healthy amel corn is any less able to thrive than a healthy normal in captivity. Of course, in the wild, the coloration has great disadvantages, but, if I'm not mistaken, the first amelanistic corn hets were produced from an adult male amel cornsnake that was wild caught. That snake seemd to have survived his coloration "defect" just fine.

Now, let me just say that amels have been the most inbred of the morphs of other species, in my opinion, because they have been the ONLY morph in many species until very recently. So, in order to produce as many of them as they could, SOME breeders have undoubtedly inbred them over several generations. That being the case, ANY genetic defect that could be found in the population as a whole would statistically be more and more certain to come out of hiding in the amelanistic inbred animals than anywhere else. Not because of the amelanism, but because of the rampant inbreeding that brought the amelanism out in so many animals so quickly.

If amelanism is really in a cause and effect relationship with these noted deformities, whay are not more amels affected than we currently find? I mean, all amels lack melanin, because it is the genetic effect of the DNA. If deformities are genetically tied to amelanism, why aren't all amels affected? Why are the amels in the species in which (until recently) there were fewer known morphs those that are the most often affected by these deformities? Surely, if amelanism were a danger to all herps, shouldn't corns be affected as well? I, like you, am not at all meaning to be argumentative, but I just think mre evidence of an actual cause and effect relationship needs to be shown here.

There is a latin phrase with which you may be already familiar: post hoc, ergo propter hoc. It means literally, "after this, therefore, because of this." In other words, just because one genetic anomaly shows up in later proximity to another one does not mean that the first (amelanism) CAUSED the latter (the deformities). It may very well be the case that amelanism has all of these dreadful effects in herp species other than cornsnakes, but it is equally possible that the tremendous inbreeding to produce amels in those species (which has not had to take place in corns for decades) could have been the actual cause of bringing out those deformities and the fact that they were found in amels is only coincidental, being brought on by the fact that it was to obtain more amels that caused the inbreeding to take place.

That's all probably as clear as mud, but I don't know how else to put into words, what I'm trying to say. I am not refuting anything you all are saying about amelanism in herps (except for the case of corns, where I see no disadvatnges to the animals' health conditions). I am just suggesting that we make certain it is the amel gene that is the true culprit and not the breeding practices of some breeders looking for more amels too quickly. That's all.
 
Cant say I seen a deformed Albino Kenyan as well, but my point being that just because you dont physically see any defects doesnt exclude them from being defective (infertility, enlarged hearts, etc).

You make a excellent point in the BRB. Sometimes even a good strong breeding may throw out weak or deformed animal. Its happens. Just look at humans. It kills me to see kids with problems and I feel blessed that my kids (though a pain in the butt sometimes) are healthy and happy.

I also bred Bearded Dragons many years ago. Even to much inbreeding can cause deform babies and their not Albino's. Ask any breeder whos been breeding them for a long time (Like the Weis's, Repashy, etc).

But the point being that it seems to pop up much quicker in the Albino strains. I strongly feel its due to the fact that Albinism is a weak gene that nature didnt intend.

The best way to produce the strongest Albinos is to out breed as much as possible. And your right, this JUST shouldnt be limited to Albino's.
 
Hey Darin,

Dude thats fine. We can agree to disagree. I feel the proof is evident. BTW, Ive seen a heck alot of more deformed Amel. Corns than Anerys or Butters. This topic is interesting and maybe someone like Rich.Z can share his years dealing with Corn morphs here as well.
 
I disagree Albinism is the cause and with all the breedings that have taken place on the various species, it shows up.

Let's put it this way. Blindness can result when the unprotected eye (lack of melanin is exposed to intense bright light). That's why people protect themselves with dark shades of the "blinding effects" of white snow for example). So Joe is right when he says that an albino animal is predisposed to blindness because of his condition. He is a "weaker" individual as far as being able to handle UV radiation. An entirely different thing are when animals are born blind as a result of an inherited eye-deffect. Again, in this case it is not albinism that is the cause but the result of having used the same animals over and over again until a genetic deffect pops-up. The genetically blind animals are sold cheap, someone buys them, produces albinos and maybe only half of the litter is blind while the other half are either healthy or carriers (in Joe's example). Thus we further perpetuate and enhance the problem. That was just my concern.
 
Erin said it very well on page one, but I believe it may have been overlooked to some degree so I'm just going to reword it a bit...

Inbreeding, in and of itself, discounting spontaneous mutations, does not introduce anything new to the gene pool, it can't create a problem with a genetic basis when the groundwork was not there in the bloodlines to start... What it does is continually re-enforce existing traits, some of which might be very negative... with each crossing, the chances for minor traits (not simple dom/recess) that have been passed from original breedings becomes exponentially more likely to occur. Thing is, we only notice the bad stuff, an immunocompromised cycloptic dwarf snake with no hemipenes is more noticable to a breeder/owner than one with a tonge that's 1/3 longer.

Each species and each strain is therefor going to be very different when looking at the secondary potential inbreeding characteristics that possibly have a genetic basis... There are multiple potential causes for many things that we see as being identical, especially with color morphs, that are interruptable at so many points in the physiological process... Many can be totally unrelated to one another genetically and may have additional secondary traits that the breeder is initially unaware of being perpetuated and strengthened at the same time as the desireable color trait.

Since many morphs or strains of morphs are started with one or a small handful of animals collected from the same area and likely related to begin with... and there is a far greater pressure to produce offspring in an accelerated manner, morphs simply have a greater tendency to BE inbred, to have those traits, including the negative ones, re-enforced multiple times over by the time they end up for sale to the general public. Since the focus is so offspring and line breeding intensive, especially when only a single source animal exists, the potential problems crop up a lot quicker.

One other thing that was mentioned a few times reccently was the possibility of multiple mutations in a single animal (and then in a single bloodline/strain/morph) some of which might be directly linked and can't be outbred and some of which might be unrelated and could, through very careful examination and record keeping, be eliminated from the strain. That is to say... there is a possibility that Joe Shmoe strain albino tuataras have a tendency to have six legs (Good hypothetical, eh?) the cause of thelegged anomaly might be on the same alleles as the cause of the albinism and thus can't be bred out. The cause might be totally separate however, in which case animals carrying the six legged problem could, given time, be identified and removed from the breeding population.

And of course, as has been said, there are often secondary causitive reasons for some problems... adult albinos may often end up blind because of increased light sensitivity, but that would not explain the trait cropping up frequently in breedings. There are other potential causes for the problem showing up during gestation though too... Say for instance if Albinos of a certain strain of a certain species instinctively moved towards lower temperatures in their enclosure... this could affect the physical formation of the neonates, so the blindness would have a (direct) physiological cause (and only a secondary genetic one, since the instincts of the parent have a genetic basis). Again, just a pure hypothetical, I'm not actually conjecturing that this is the cause, merely pointing out that these tendencies don't *always* have a direct genetic cause or, when they do have a genetic cause, they aren't always automatically linked to the desired phenotype.
 
Now see there? You would think that I would have learned to just email my jumbled thoughts to Seamus and then have him post them in a logical progression of thought! That's way closer to what I intended to say about the possibilities of genetic linkage than what actually dribbled off MY keyboard!

Well said, Seamus!
 
Say for instance if Albinos of a certain strain of a certain species instinctively moved towards lower temperatures in their enclosure... this could affect the physical formation of the neonates, so the blindness would have a (direct) physiological cause (and only a secondary genetic one, since the instincts of the parent have a genetic basis).

Excellent point Seamus! And maybe, just maybe, if the temperature on one end of the enclosure is increased with a lamp that also provides intense light at the same time, an albino animal might probably go to the opposite end which is in fact darker (thus less hard on his retina), but at the same time cooler. Nice discussion!
 
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