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Inbreeding taking a toll on albinos?

Unfortunately there's no real way of telling where the defective gene (if it is genetic, evidence strongly suggests it but it has yet to be proven) originated without some serious, intense leg-work... Contacting every breeder/dealer who has an animal displaying an eye problem and then trying to trace it backwards. I suspect that most people would be unwilling to talk about the situation, since asking "Did you produce an animal with this deformity?" and "Who did you sell it's siblings to, who did you get it's parents from?" could easily be mistaken as a slight against their quality... It is in some ways- most people know that continued propogation from animals related to the problem is wrong, they just ignore it for the money that there is to be made.

Further, the problem seems really wide-spread, it's not a situation where there's one identifiable breeder who's constantly producing animals which have the problem, it's cropped up in many collections. What this implies is that the defective gene was likely introduced early on in the project and, as Alvaro said, it was likely unintentional. There are some conditions which have a genetic cause but can't be expressed as a simple recessive or codominant trait, they are simply quantitative... Kinda like... breeding a beardie with more red in it to another with more red than normal will result in neonates which have more red... Chances are good that this eye defect is similar, added to the gene pool through an animal which appeared completely normal, reinforced over a few successive generations, still without displaying itself and eventually becoming strong enough to start showing up.

Problem now is identifying which animals have it and which ones don't... Since outcrossing often involves animals sharing the same trait, but having the same origination... (Single albino boa which originated the line) it gets into multiple breeding groups. Add in the fact that most people selling offspring won't mention that a sibling had an eye defect or that last year the same adults threw a few with eye problems when selling neonates which don't have the problem...

An easy parallel can be drawn to leucistic texas rat snakes... The bug eye condition is a defect with a genetic cause... It's become widespread though, even when crossing two animals not showing the trait, their offspring can end up bug-eyed.

Early culling is the only solution but I suspect, even though it's the ethical choice of action, it's not going to happen. If it's allowed to continue though, more and more albino boas will have this defect, until it's being displayed by a good portion or possibly even the majority of the population.

What's worse... A lot of people seem to have no concept of the different albino strains. Since many "breeders" these days seem to think that proper selection of animals means "Dis one I gots right here an' dis odder one I dun seen fer sale cheap." it's only a matter of time before someone starts producing hets for both khal and sharp strain albinism which are carrying the defective genes, introducing them to other albino populations.
 
Jeff Ronne used / uses Kahl strain albino for his projects . Has anyone heard of any defective animals coming from him or do you think it might have been someone using substandard animals to produce Kahl albinos and went from there?
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No never heard of that. In reality most breeders have used the Kahl strain in their project as the Sharp it's still in its infancy.

What worries me the most though is that some people are doing this for a living. Let us suppose that after 4 years of raising the albino breeders, they reproduce and in the first litter of 20 albinos a one-eyed shows up. Great! They have a pair of albino breeders that can sell for let's say $6,000. Sell the one-eyed cheap for maybe $600 plus the rest of the clutch for maybe $1,000 each. Total = $25,600. What's it going to be? Put food on the table or...I think we all know the answer.

So how do you regulate individuals using defective animals other than educating as many as you can not to buy/use those animals?
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We can't "regulate" individuals. Those are their animals and they are not hiding the defect, they are selling the animal "as is". Education is a possible avenue (and that's why this thread is here!) but then again there are the ones that are not very well informed about this hereditary traits. There are sellers that will tell them it's "traumatic" and they don't need to worry about it. And finally, there are those that will buy them anyways because they know they will produce "cheap" albinos and make a quick buck. There's not an easy answer. The best we can do is create the awareness in the general public that this problem exists, anda that it's not getting any better.

Regards,
 
I didnt even read this thread, as I followed it on another forum, and Im sure its full of the same arguments. So instead, Im just going to post my opinions on the subject. If I repeat what others have said so be it.

The albino gene is not the problem. All animals can and do produce defective babies under certain circumstances. I have seen mis formed, half formed, and deformed common boas as well as one eye albinos. I would guess the majority of "one eyed commons" dont get reported. Also I would think you would see more one eyed het albnos if it was such a problem.

I agree that a one eyed albino is a bad thing. And that breeding a one eyed animal is irresponsible at best. However this is a open and ffree market. If someone wants to be (in my opinion now) stupid enough to base their founding stock on one eyed animals thats there mistake. Im sure the market will not accept many of theese animals, and less as time goes on.

If I were just now getting into a albino project, I would suggest a few things. Buy the best you can, as your late in the game. Buy from quality stock without know genetic problems, and dont breed related animals. As more and more choices for stock are available, the low end, low ball breeders will be weeded out.

SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST BABY

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
 
I have seen mis formed, half formed, and deformed common boas as well as one eye albinos. I would guess the majority of "one eyed commons" dont get reported. Also I would think you would see more one eyed het albnos if it was such a problem.
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Although those malformation could be genetic, in MHO it's more than likely a result of inadequate ambient temperatures. I do agree with you that one-eyed common boas are probably less reported as I would guess they are probably not even worth the time ($) to write the ad. Why do you think you would have to see more hetero albinos with eyed defects?

Regards.
 
Well I would suggest that if its is indeed involved directly with the albino gene itself, then one would assume it would appear also in the het animals at a higher rate then the general population. I personally have NEVER heard of a one eye het albino.

However one could also argue that it would only show up in animals displaying the albino trait, not thoose carrying the genetics but not showing them.

Personally I would imagine that its more directly related to constant inbreeding by a slect few breeders, rather then the genetics themselves. I bet if you did the same thing with hypos (ie breed brother x sister constantly) you would end up with many defects. Personally I feel that something is odd looking about many f4 hypos, and belived that outcrossing is the best bet with the hypos future rather then going for f5 or f6 hypos.

Also albino x albino breedings are not at this time wise, but in the future may not be a bad thing at all. With 10-20 years of outcrossing I would suspect you would have not problem breeding albino x albino (again as long as not brother and sister) without worries. But now I wouldnt do that.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
 
Personally I would imagine that its more directly related to constant inbreeding by a slect few breeders, rather then the genetics themselves. I bet if you did the same thing with hypos (ie breed brother x sister constantly) you would end up with many defects. Personally I feel that something is odd looking about many f4 hypos, and belived that outcrossing is the best bet with the hypos future rather then going for f5 or f6 hypos.
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Yes, I agree. The advantage of hypos/salmons is the fact that they are co-dominant and thus people that want to start w/o spending a lot of money can do so with one hypo male and 2-3 normal females. This would also ensure a more diverse genetic pool. Then again I had no thought about the F3 plus hypos, and yes it might end up being a similar situation. The question is if the albino animal, because of the lack of melanin is more susceptible to non-genetic blindness from one or both eyes. The animal that is in the picture on this thread shows an anomaly that has all the appearance of being genetic in nature.

Regards.
 
I never really thought the eye deformity was directly connected to the albino gene, but rather the levels of inbreeding practiced from the beginning of breeding the morph sort of attached the two conditions together.
Early on some carrier of the bad eye gene was brought into the gene pool, then through constant inbreeding in the rush to produce more albinos, the gene proliferated, and is now commonly found in the albino lines.
The reason no hets are found displaying the trait is that they most often involved the breeding of an albino to an unrelated normal. Any normal looking snakes that may have hatched form an albino to het or a het to het breeding would be more likely to be destroyed than the much more valuable albino.

It may be that the bad eye condition is connected to the albino trait on a genetic level, but I have always thought it to be the result of an unfortunate introduction of a bad gene early in the project which gained a near permanent foothold as a result of inbreeding.
There's often a price to be paid for the quick payoff, and this is an example of that.
I've never been fond of albino boas from the start, but at this point I would be hesitant to buy one at all for breeding purposes because I would consider it likely as not that you would get a carrier even if you bought a great looking specimen. The damage has been done, and the simple fact is it will never be repaired.
Like Mickey said, perhaps with 20 years of outcrossing the genetic line may be purged, but along with the outcrossing the complete destruction of certain bloodlines would be required as well as the destruction of many individual snakes, and the reality is that just isn't going to happen, not as long as some breeders or dealers can turn a profit off even the deformed individuals.
 
I've never been fond of albino boas from the start, but at this point I would be hesitant to buy one at all for breeding purposes because I would consider it likely as not that you would get a carrier even if you bought a great looking specimen.
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Clay,

My thoughts exactly. The problem is that I do like the albino boa and like you, first I don't have that kind of money right now, and secondly I would be really concerned of those defective individuals showing-up.

The damage has been done, and the simple fact is it will never be repaired.
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Exactly. The only things that is left is try to create the awareness that the problem does exist and that those that care about the future of this mutation should be careful in choosing their breeding stock.

Like Mickey said, perhaps with 20 years of outcrossing the genetic line may be purged, but along with the outcrossing the complete destruction of certain bloodlines would be required as well as the destruction of many individual snakes, and the reality is that just isn't going to happen, not as long as some breeders or dealers can turn a profit off even the deformed individuals.
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I highly doubt ANYONE is taking radical steps to eradicate the problem. Breeders that are in this for a living cannot afford to wait the 6 years it would take to introduce "fresh" normal blood in the albino genetic pool. What would be the price of the Kahl strain 6 years from now? The fact is that I suspect that those animals that are born with such a defect are oftentimes sold to brokers at discount prices.

Regards.
 
The fact is that I suspect that those animals that are born with such a defect are oftentimes sold to brokers at discount prices.
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Or they try to convince people that it's the result of "trauma" :rolleyes:
"This one was bitten by a littermate" or "this one was crushed under the mother at birth".
Anything but "Hey I have bad genes in my breeding stock but I'm not willing to do anything about it as long as you'll fork over some cash to get these at a discount."

Boas apparently suffer a hell of a lot of trauma immediately after birth that no other species has to deal with. Must be tough being a boa.
 
ok I just finished reading the whole thread, and figured I would add a few more thoughts.

First I have heard of eye problems with sharp and kahl strain albinos.

Second I would be more likely to worry about this being a ongoing problem when and if we start seeing sunglows with one eye or snows with one eye. Then we know its spreading into other genetic lines, and then I would agree its a problem.

Third I think some people are blowing a few things out of perportion (sp?). First and foremost from what I gather boas are not the easiest animals to breed. As such just because someone buys a one eyed boa, that gives them no guruantee they will be able to produce with them. In fact I would argue they are starting with inferior animals that are less likely to produce.

Fourth I would venture to guess part of the "mass of one eyes" you see are actually repeates. I would guess many people buy into the one eye animals thinking they are going the "easy route" only to over time realize their animals are flawed and decide to sell them. At this point you see the same animal over and over agin for sale with different people.

I would also pose this question, how can the precence of one eye albinos from sharp and kahl strains be explained ? Does the fact that one eyes from both exist make the situation different? We know thats two different bloodlines with the same "defect". Maybe boas themselves are just more suseptible to eye problems then other snakes.

With the proliforation (sp?) of captive breeding of boas over the years, quickened by the morph market, has also unleashed defects into the market. Many of theese defects likely occured in the wild, but likely dont survive, and as such in the "old days" were not imported to the market. However their genetics likely were even back then in their "normal" siblings.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
 
Hey Mickey !!

Whats up buddy !!

Well, I have to disagree with you. The Albino gene is a weak trait that nature never intended. I think it effects certain species of snakes differently. Example: The Boas one eye, Albino Ball Pythons kinked backs, deformed Albino Burmese Pythons, etc.

Now, I also believe some species handle this genetic flaw better than others, and will only rarly show flaws. Example: Albino Corns, etc. BUT, I still believe that with not enough outbreeding, other somewhat strong species strains to date will fall victim as well. Example: Albino Retics and Albino Sand Boas.

Now you brought up a question about seeing one eyed Sunglows or Snow Boas. Dude, you partied too much in Philly !! Just kidding you buddy, but there was a one eyed Snow Boa at the Philly Show. Thats the 3rd one Ive seen and NO its not the same snake being resold. I also know of a breeder who bred a one eyed Albino to a completly unrelated het female. Guess what ? 10 Albinos. 5 healthy onesand 5 one eyed ones. This proves to me that they can breed and reproduce. This also shows me that bad genetics can flood the market rather quickly with the "get rich quick" breeders.

These are only my feelings on the Albino trait in general. I love Albino's and breed Albino Ball Pythons. BUT, I think a little more care, outbreeding and time will only produce the best possible strains. Get rich breeders will most likely will show defects and less superior animals in my book. This is just my thoughts on the matter and Ill stick to it. Hope to see ya soon. And next time stay longer !! LOL !!
 
Yea that was a bad weekend.

Im sure we will bump into each other this year, if nothing else at Tinley.

I wasnt aware there were one eyed snows, let alone any were at philly. That is very disturbing to say the least.

As many people know I have a couple of albinos, and plan to get more as time goes on. I personally find them to be amazing animals. However I agree that much care must be taken to keep the line as strong as possible.

One of the good things and bad things I guess depending on how you look at it, is that most breeders are outcrossing by produceing dh's of one sort or another. But if its true that its popping up in snows, then one would assume its only a matter of time before it pops up in sunglows.

So would you say it irresponsible at this point to be breeding with albinos alltogether? Seriously, if you took the money out of the issue, are we doing irreversable damage to the captive bloodlines? Or with all the outcrossing are we likely going to be able to controll it (assuming your buying from a ethical breeder).

Say I breed my albino to hypos, ghosts, or anerys.

Say all my babies that I would be ever soo lucky to produce come out healthy and fully eyed (LOL)

Am I doing harm to captive stock with such breedings.

Or could you argue that unless thoose animals are paired back up with albinos (and granted we know most would be) they pose no harm.


My personal breeding plans at the current time involve all albino x wild type animals (hypos, anerys, ghosts). Only one female in my collection carries the albino trait, and thats a dh sunglow (kahl). I have no sharp females.

I plan to continue to purchase males and females for a few more seasons adding about 10 a season to further my breeding stock to about 30 animals.

Once I am (if I am) lucky enough to produce I plan to breed males from my litters to females I hope to purchase this year, or females I allready have, but none related. However at this stage I woudl of course like to start produceing albinos, ect, so I would hope to be breeding albinos x hets when I start useing my own offspring.

Once my production (again if I am that lucky) is up and running, and I have enough animals of as related as possible bloodlines, I would hope to really start produceing more with animals carrying the albino gene.

However my long term plan has always been to use double or triple het animals. This is why I am so interested in ghost females, as its two traits with one animal. This would also allow me to produce a diverse group of morphs with the least number of breedings (always great to avoid have all your eggs in one basket soo to speak).

So I guess my question is, if I follow the guidlines I set for myself, am I doing harm to captive population? Would I (again if I were that lucky to produce anything) be part of the problem?

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
 
A big part of the problem lies in the complete inability to determine which animals might be carriers for a defective gene (still assuming it's genetic for the moment) unless their entire lineage is known.

As Alvaro has said a few times, your animals might not have eye problems but can you verify 100% that none of their siblings did? Or their parents siblings?

Since it's not even completely known to be genetic, much less been something that anyone has been able to identify the genetic strength of, it's not something which can be easily predicted... The gene might have been inherent in that first captive albino, it might have been introduced early on in the project (I'm going to assume via an animal which did not show any signs of deformity)... But sometimes it's a matter of degree, the gene needs to be reinforced many times over before it begins to display itself fully. Problem is though... outcrossing within albino projects is nearly impossible, since it's not known which animals may be carriers and which aren't. The manner in which the albino genes have been introduced into other projects including other recessive genetic traits makes it fairly likely that, at this point, the other populations have already ben infected to some degree, but since these projects are newer it hasn't had time to work itself up to the obvious problem yet.

Leucistic Texas rats are a great model to look at in this situation, the eye problems in that species were acknowledged as being genetic and undesireable, but the morph was visually impressive and there was a reasonable demand for animals which were leucistic or could potentially be carrying the genes. The problem became more widespread as people, driven to produce as much profit as possible (they were depending on these projects for their living), neglected to inform others when and if the bug-eyes started showing up in their projects, selling clutchmates as being perfectly normal animals and never mentioning the difficulties. The adult pairs which had produced batches of partially deformed neonates were allowed to continue to breed, just furthering the problems.

Nowadays, it's the ones without eye problems, for both leucistics and normals (possible hets which turned out not to be hets but were still carrying the genes for eye problems entered the breeding population of normal animals) that are rare. Normals can obviously still be had, since they are collected with a decent frequency, but finding leucistics without eye problems seems to be a near impossibility these days, they command prices far above those of the bug eyes and are seen as being unusual.

Since the majority of individuals producing albino boas are either unwilling or unable to really start culling their collections to remove the deformity (Remember, it involves culling every snake known to be related to one with an eye deformity, not just the specific individuals) due to financial pressures to produce... and the other end of the production spectrum is composed of people who managed to save up enough to get a single albino animal to start their project and usually buy the first one that's avaliable cheap... The problem is likely to only get worse.

Since there are many individuals who saw the potential for the albino genes to be used in other projects, and the offspring of projects working with two or even three recessive traits are predominantly possible hets, I suspect very strongly that other morph populations have already been contaminated in a manner which can't be altered... Populations of normal animals have likely been infected too, but as has been said, the likelyhood of anyone continuing breeding projects with normals which have deformities is low, as animals without problems are readily avaliable.

All anyone can do is practice good culling procedures in their own collections and encourage others to do the same. If you have animals which throw deformed neonates, ensure that the neonates never enter the breeding population. Euthanization is reccomended unless you want to hang on to thirty boas that will eat for their entire lives and never turn any kind of profit... Giving the animals to people who promise not to breed them simply isn't safe, as animals change hands too many times, even with the kid down the street who just wanted a pet. If the parents have multiple clutches where a deformity is present, then they shouldbe removed from the breeding population themselves, either in your care and never seeing another boa of the opposite gender until time runs it's course or euthanized if the cost or space would be prohibitive. This can be said to be true of any animals, not just albino boa projects. If your cornsnakes routinely throw kinked neonates, then stop breeding them. If your leopard geckos are born with twisted tails and it happens too frequently to be an incubation error, cull them and their parents. It's a concept with is perhaps better understood by people working with fish than most of those working with herps, a lot of herpers anthropomorphize their animals to a degree which might be unhealthy and unrealistic, this, when combined with profit margins, prevents defective genes from being weeded out as they should be.

Yes, I know... I'm a horrible evil mean person for wanting to gas your pet just because it has funny legs. I've heard the moral arguments about the preciousness of living things and I don't buy them, deformed animals are dangerous in the same way hybrids are dangerous, only more so since the health effects on a larger population are immediate and direct. The only way to get something out of a genetic population is to ensure it never reproduces.
 
So I guess my question is, if I follow the guidlines I set for myself, am I doing harm to captive population? Would I (again if I were that lucky to produce anything) be part of the problem?
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It would in a large part depend on which scenario as to the reason behind the deformities is actually true.
Reducing the question to the base options it would seem that either the deformities are a direct result of the albino gene itself, or it is another genetic defect introduced early in the development of the albino lines that gained a solid foothold as a result of inbreeding.

Of course it could be more complicated, involving additional genes, but that would lead the possibilities into an expanding circle.
If the first possibility is true, and the albino gene is responsible, then no amount of outcrossing can solve the problem, and any further breeding of the morph will potentially degrade the lines, since it would be inherent to albinos period. I do not feel this is the case though. However, the apparent lack of one eyed boas not exhibiting the influence of albinism makes one wonder.

Should the second, and more likely option be the case, then a few things are possible. If the eye deforming gene is recessive, then it is likely that there does exist many albinos that are completely free from the condition. If your stock proves to be clear of the gene, then you are well on your way to producing the best quality offspring. If however, you produce some one eyed individuals, then decisions will have to be made according to your priorities and ethical beliefs.

With the number of boas you are proposing to maintain, you are increasing your chances of having good founding stock, but also increasing the possibility of the defect popping up at some point.
If it were me, I'd breed my albinos together and see what happens. If I got a couple of decent sized litters from a given pair with no defects, I would feel good about that pair being in my group, and I wouldn't let them go.

While I don't think the albino gene itself is responsible for the eye defects, it is plausible to me that another gene, in combination with the albino gene can be the cause. This would explain the lack of one eyed hets. If this is actually the case, then the problem is farther reaching than we may realize. Your albinos for instance may not have the gene, but your anerythristic might be the carrier. Once you set out to produce snows using that anerythristic you may have some eye defects arise even though you have repeatedly failed to produce any deformed offspring from your albino to albino breedings.
There are far too many unanswered questions with the genetics involved, and much is still speculation. The majority of the questions will not be answered anytime soon, due to the sheer effort required to explore the possibilities, and the influence of realized or lost profits.
If one were serious about investigating the full influence of these genes, he should acquire a couple of one eyed specimens. Using these, he could conduct a series of controlled test breedings in which most of the offspring would be destroyed, and a few retained for producing the next generation. It would take several years, but could be contained so as not to overly hinder the breeders profitable endeavors, especially if there were a small group of breeders working together and mutually compiling information on seperate avenues of the project.
The drawback would be it would be a complete financial dead end, as nothing produced from the project could be sold. The knowledge gained however would be invaluable. Much like the original genetic experiments that defined dominant and recessive traits, the true nature of the one eyed defect could be discerned with enough time and patience.
 
Eyed

Mickey,

I have to agree with just about everything Clay and Seamus has stated. To repeat most of it is a waste of time. The only thing that I could recommened is this:

1) Try to find new blood. I know this is hard for the Albino Boas. But for example, I got a male Albino Ball Python from VPI. It was from breeding a wild caught Albino to a het normal. It ended up being compatable with the Clark strain. I obtained a second male from that breeding. I kept one and sold the other to a customer. This maybe not be a option, but if the chance arises, TAKE IT.

2) Outbreeding is not the "cure" presay in my book, but more or less, a way in which to keep the line stronger. Because the lines started out from the same fathering animal, in every instance, any breeding is inbreeding. Id try and distance myself further away. In other words, dont breed your Albino to the Hypo and breed them back together. OR breed them back to the father or mother. Id get a second male and Hypo female. Pair off the 2 different related offspring together to get your sunglows. ETC. Now we can go on for generations here and simply it does get more complex. But, this is a way to help produce stronger animals in my opinion.

Is this the answer ?? Hell, NO. As others have stated, you may run into it even with the most outbreeding you do. But, Ill bet youll produce stronger animals as a result. Ill also bet youll have customers looking for that dedicated breeder and will spend more for your offspring than from others. I know I would.

Theres no cure. Just preventive maintance pre say. If they do pop up, dont sell them. Though it sounds cruel, I do agree with what Seamus has stated. Until a firm reason behind the defect is discovered, why chance it ? Its always better to error on caution.
 
Id like to believe a couple of things about myself, but I guess till your faced with them you dont know.

First I would like to believe should I produce one eyed animals that I would destroy them. Anyone who knows me well knows Im not the type of person who sells flawed animals, for one I feel its tacky, and second I just dont feel its good for business to sell sub par animals. As such if they pop up in my breedings I would like to think I would have no problem culling them.

However the tricky part is to say 100% without a doubt that if I were to produce say a litter of 20 boas, 10 albino, and of them 1 animal was one eye, exactly what Id do.

Id like to believe that IF that were to happen I would be strong enough to do "the right thing: but lets be realistic. Thats 10 g your putting down plus hets (on something we can all agree we dont fully understand).

Man all I can say is IF I am lucky enough to produce, please dont let me hit the one eye snakes (besides thats the wifes job....JK)

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
 
The other options are just as hard though, for a moral person.

Selling the animals when you know that there's the potential for making the whole situation worse can't be making it easy for some people to sleep at night.

Culling them is the loss of what must be admitted to be substantial money. With very few exceptions, ten grand is substantial to someone making even part of their living as a herper.

Then there's the idea which Clay put forth... if you do produce albino boas and you know that the parents have... whatever condition or qualification is needed to produce neonates with eye problems, you have a valuable opportunity to set them aside from your sales production breeders and conduct a few generations worth of experiments to isolate the condition. Lot of time, money and effort would have to be invested though... and my personal opinion is that Clay's low estimate might be a bit opptomistic (No offense intended Sir), six or seven generations might start to give you ideas about how to refine your controls and variables but I think a true solution would take much longer, if it can be had at all.

The fact that you worry about it shows that you'd do the right thing though, someone unconcerned with the ramifications of the sale of related animals is the one to watch out for.
 
One eyed breeding group

Lets say someone put together a few one eyes for experimental breeding and they produce with a number( pick one ) of young with the same one eyed problem. How many babies do you hold back for breeding purposes.

I'd guess 1 0.1 to backbreed to dad ( w/ one eye )

1 1.0 to back breed to mom (w/ one eye )

1.1 to breed together ( one eyed)

1.1 to breed together ( no visibal problems)

1.1 normal looking to backbreed to mom and dad.

I'm just going on what i'm gleeming outta the posts. Inspect the back bred litters for signs. I'm assuming if the trait breeds true it should show up more readily when the babies with the eye probs are back bred. Inspect the litters of siblings bred together and note the numbers and go from where after this?

The idea is interesting and i wouldn't mind doing it except for the money part ( to get the animals neccessary to do this with ).

Bryon Adzic
 
I'd guess 1 0.1 to backbreed to dad ( w/ one eye )

1 1.0 to back breed to mom (w/ one eye )

1.1 to breed together ( one eyed)

1.1 to breed together ( no visibal problems)

1.1 normal looking to backbreed to mom and dad.
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Although interesting it will be difficult to prove the results you obtain are statistically significant. You would probably have to do it with a lot more animals "per treatment" before you can get to any conclusions. Then it really becomes a very expensive experiment but why doing it if the results are going to be of little value. Personally I don't like statistics, particularly when the results of an experiment tell you that an animal gained 1 lb another one 1.5 lbs but yet, there was no difference.

Regards.
 
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