Ken of Exotic Pets in Las Vegas*BAD*

On July the 8th I made a trade with Ken from Exotic Pets in Las Vegas. I sent him 1.1 2002 pair of white-sided black rats, and I was to get 1.3 Taiwan Beauty Snakes. The white-sides showed up at his door at 8:48am and he was not there to get the snakes. At 1:02pm he signed for the snakes. at 8:14pm he sends me an email say Thanks for the effort but they are dead.

Heres a copy of his email

Well hell. The snakes arrived, both dead from the heat. A great shame, as they were both just what I was looking for. If you need verification of the deaths, I can either send you a photo, or I can freeze them and send them back to you in the mail, your choice. The temp here is about 115 degrees, an uninsulated box with plastic containers in it will just not cut it in this heat. I'm sorry. Thanks for the effort, Ken

Heres my reply

Thanks for my effort? The box showed up at your door at 8:48am and you was not at the address to claim the box. I have ship the same way for the summer for the last 10 years with no problems. The styrophome also holds heat in a box which is why I dont use it. How do you want to take care of this?

Bobby Pruett
Arboreals Etc...
http://www.corallus.com/arborealsetc
http://www.rhacodactylus.net
419-621-7927
----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 11:13 PM
Subject: Re: Message about: Taiwan Beauty Snakes

Heres a copy of the Fed-Ex tracking
Tracking number
791627067084
Signed for by
K.R
Ship date
Jul 8, 2003
Delivery date/time
Jul 9, 2003 1:02 pm

Delivered to
Recept/Frnt desk
Delivery location
LAS VEGAS NV
Service type
Priority Overnight



Date/time
Status
Location
Comments


Jul 9, 2003 1:02 pm
Delivered
LAS VEGAS NV


8:48 am
Delivery attempt
LAS VEGAS NV
Customer not available or Business closed


8:07 am
On FedEx vehicle for delivery
NORTH LAS VEGAS NV




7:19 am
Arrived at FedEx Destination Location
NORTH LAS VEGAS NV




6:07 am
Left FedEx Ramp
LAS VEGAS NV


6:06 am
Arrived at FedEx Ramp
LAS VEGAS NV


4:27 am
Left FedEx Sort Facility
MEMPHIS TN


Jul 8, 2003 11:34 pm
Left FedEx Ramp
CLEVELAND OH


11:26 pm
Arrived at Sort Facility
MEMPHIS TN


8:16 pm
Left FedEx Origin Location
LORAIN OH



4:18 pm
Picked up by FedEx
LORAIN OH


8:48 am
Arrived at FedEx Ramp
CLEVELAND OH




Heres a link to my TERMS page
http://www.corallus.com/arborealsetc/terms.htm

As you read through this mess you will see where I am being ripped off

First...

Who initiated the trade, did you contact him or did he contact you? Your terms and conditions might have no bearing whatsoever on the situation depending on the direction of contact and which party instigated the transaction.

Secondly...

It is now July Tenth, have you given him ample oppurtunity to adress this issue? Clearly not, since the email contacts are from yesterday.

Third...

I've known Ken for a few years now and the man has never in that time mistreated a customer to the best of my knowledge, he is nothing short of an honest, quality businessman with perfect practices and the best track record of anyone I know. I personally have made numerous purchases from him without the slighest problem...

Fourth...

You used no insulation despite the fact the animals were going to Vegas? Are you NUTS?! he may not have collected the package upon first delivery attempt if the shop was closed, but you have to acknowledge culpability for not using styro and cool packs knowing full well the destination of the package.

Fifth...

I'm going to ask it again, since it's the most important factor... Did you give Exotic pets ample time to respond to this issue before running to the BOI with it? I know every post is made after a personally determined time but it seems like you posted some Twenty four to thirty six hours after the situation occured, if that isn't jumping the gun, I don't know what is. If you don't get satisfactory resolution at this point, your own conduct probably has a lot to do with it... you do not create a BOI thread calling someone bad and alleging criminal negligence after twenty four hours when your own conduct is at least partially at fault, it's just not done.

I kind of answered my own question in rereading the initial post...

There are two posted emails up there, the last one of which is from Bobby asking what path Ken intends to take, if Ken had responded, that email would logically be posted up there as well, since it's not, it's fairly safe to assume that a response hadn't been formulated yet as of the time of the posting...

Writing a BOI post calling someone a bad guy after such a short period of time and without giving them ANY chance to respond lets me know who the bad guy in the transaction is... and it's not Ken.

Personally, I think that 1)You should not have written this post at this time, it only makes you look impatient and very slightly ignorant to allow such a short time frame and 2)That there is a high degree of culpability that is on Bobby's shoulders due to what really is clearly improper packaging since he knew where the shipment was heading and could have easily checked the conditions at the destination when boxing it up, a few extra hours is not the same as a few extra days and a properly packaged animal would have had no problems with the slight delay. Of course, properly packaged animals would have been inside styro with cool packs.

One other amendment...

If he emailed you to let you know they arrived dead at 8:14 PM on July ninth and you posted at 1:59 AM (You're in Central Standard time, right?) on July tenth, you only allowed Fibe hours and forty five minutes for him to respond before you called him a bad guy...

Five hours and forty five minutes after asking what he planned on doing, without getting a response and he's a bad guy?

That's way... WAY too fast to be making that kind of judgement.

If I were in his position (and I'm not), at this point I would not offer any compensation or even attempt a compromise... you shipped improperly, blamed him for your mistake and then call him a bad guy without even attempting true communication on the subject. Bordering on libel here.

And because it might get lost in my numerous immediate responses...

Did you contact him about the trade or did he contact you?

If you contacted him, your terms and conditions are meaningless, as you are the supplicant, as would be a customer responding to an ad and HIS terms and conditions are those which are applicable.

If he contacted you about the trade, then you have already violated your own terms which state that you will not ship out trades unless they ship first... Since you shipped first, that tends to indicate (correct me if I'm wrong) that you contacted him (see above paragraph).

I agree..

Sorry Bobby but I agree with most of what Seamus stated.

I personally would not ship to a destination where the high is 115 degrees, no way no how. It's just not worth the risk! There can be carrier delays or, as in this case, the business wasn't open at the time of delivery, and the animals end up being carted around town in a burning hot Fed Ex truck. I also feel that if for whatever reason you feel that you must ship in conditions such as that, an insulated styro box with cold packs would be advisable.

However, your terms page does state the following: "If an orders picked up late or you miss the carrier this will void the guarantee. Temperatures below 40f or above 90f in my area or the destination address will void live arrival guarantee." I dunno though seems like a poor decision to ship those animals, by you and your customer. That is so sad.

No styro and no cool pac in 115 temperatures
whos fault is it
its very likely that the snakes could have allready been dead at 8;48....but they weren't picked up then
the fault is both parties

I had one shipper who used a frozen sponge in a ziplock bag with styrofoam... worked quite well, and he was in Arizona in July.

Erin Benner

Properly packaged, external temperatures should not prevent an animal from being delivered safely to anyplace in the continental U.S.

Improperly packaged animals will die pretty easily during both the summer and the winter in most the continental U.S.

These animals were clearly inappropriately packaged, someone reccieving an animal should not have to instruct a shipper about packaging unless asked about the subject in advance, Bobby screwed up on the packaging by his own admission and endangered the lives of those animals. He refuses to accept responsibilty for this, instead focusing on a minor delay (minor delays are not lethal unless there is a problem prior to the event that impedes delivery).

Bobby also asked Ken what he planned on doing about the situation via email, then posted a bad guy thread after only five hours with no response... That's unacceptable in and of itself, the other party needs to be given a reasonable amount of time to reccieve communications, consider and adress the issue.

So... Bobby Pruett- Bad Guy, Bad Shipper, Bad judgement in posting, No Patience would be a more appropriate title for this thread.

This isn't exactly the first issue Bobby has had either, in doing a search using the button below his post to reveal others he has been involved in, there's a fairly long thread about his misrepresentation of a boa, shipping it out with an eye defect and seriously underweight. He claimed the eye defect didn't need to be mentioned because it was a common problem and that underweight and not feeding in several months (due to breeding but still...) didn't need to be mentioned prior to THAT trade...

So basically... Enter into a trade with Pruett only if you want dead or misrepresented animals and an enormous pain in the backside after the transaction is completed.

I have known Ken for around 5yrs. and have never known him to be BAD especially when it comes to customer service. I have dealt with him directly in the store, and since I no longer live in LV I have dealt with him online. Ken is one of the few VERY upstanding people in the herp comunity.

That said, why was it delivered at 8:48, did you pay extra for the early shipment, or is that normal time. Also did you happen to let Ken know that they would be arriving that early,hence he would actually be there early to get them. I also agree with seemus, being from the desert I ALLWAYS use styro and cold pacs in the summer, Better safe than sorry. I am sorry that 2 snakes had to pay for this mistake hopefully it will not be made again.

Something that would be hilariously funny if the circumstances were different...

I was poking around Bobby's website and found that he will return emails within twenty four hours (Contact section) but he only gave Ken five hours... Five hours in the middle of the night.

If it were a different situation, it would be funny... as it is, Bobby is just a lowlife impatient hypocrite trying to ruin someone's reputation to cover his own stupid mistake.

Pretty low Bobby... Pretty low.

I just got another piece of information about the duration of time involved here...

That five-six hours which I thought was way too quick before... It gets even worse.

I have not at this point talked to ken about the issue, he was asleep by the time I read this thread, I have however had a very brief discussion with Kim, very informal, very casual comments in passing before she went to sleep herself...

Bobby posted on Fauna at 10:59 PM Pacific standard time (Looking at it from Vegas for the moment) on July ninth.

The email that Bobby sent to Ken asking what he planned on doing about the situation was sent at 11:02 PM Pacific Standard Time according to the AOL header.

Looking at it logically, the email sent to ken likely got hung up for a few moments on the various email servers and/or AOL's clock and Fauna's clock aren't identical, so it's likely that Bobby sent the email a few minutes before posting here...

... but the clocks wouldn't be off by that much and Bobby sent the email asking what resolution Ken proposed A FEW MINUTES BEFORE POSTING HERE... MINUTES!

That is simply disgraceful, underhanded and improper conduct... You don't ask someone what kind of resolution they propose then call them a bad guy five minutes later.

The more I look at this situation, the worse Bobby is looking. Improper shipping, Impatient to an almost disgusting degree, Pain in the ass to enter into a transaction with... or a trade anyway, Hypocritical, tried to misdirect everyone by implying that his terms and conditions applied when he is the one who contacted Ken about the trade...

I wonder... Bobby, did you post here so quickly because you were worried that Ken would be posting about you and thought that nobody would notice your inconsistencies and poor shipping practices if you got the first post in?

I don't open untill 11:00 but I make it a point to be at my store no later than 7:00 am if I am expecting a perishable package. All my regular route delivery drivers usually don't get to me until the afternoon but they all have my cell phone and store numbers so the can contact me if they are running early.

For Ken not to be there to accept the package that he knew (assuming he did) was ariving that day is not acceptable. Did Ken insist that the package be shipped when it was, if so, he should have known what the forecast was and had Bobby hold the snakes until the temps cooled off. Even if he didn't insist, he should have known the forcast and perhaps asked to hold off.

Still, it was most likely the substandard shipping methods that contributed more to the death of the snakes than the delayed delivery. Both parties have blame in this case, and unfortunatley, for Bobby, I can't agree with him that Ken owes him anything. By his own indication Bobby knew that the temps could be a factor (the part about the styro holding in the heat) He should have known better than to ship in those conditions. Had the snakes been properly packaged they may have survived. One other point, If you won't guarantee live delivery in certain conditions why would you ship if you knew those conditions would certainly exist. You are admitting that there is a greater chance that the animals will die but it seems like you are saying as long as I am not out any money its OK. A better policy would be not to ship at all if temps are above or below a certain point, and then you can actually stand behind a live delivery guarantee.

As for his timing in posting, I agree, you have to give a guy a chance to read and respond to your messages before you go slamming him.

Steve Schindler

8:48 am
Arrived at FedEx Ramp
CLEVELAND OH

Click to expand...

First off, I though this guy was in Las Vegas??? Second, it never says they were attempted to be delivered at 8:48, it states that they arrived at the FedEx Ramp in Cleveland OH, AKA the FedEx STATION in Cleveland OH! Not his front doorstep! Mind posting the rest of the shipment information to validate you claim?

Also, I have always found it wise to try to pack each animal to withstand 48 hours of being within a shipment just in case, even if the package is guaranteed to arrive in only 14 hours. While I know it can be difficult to package an animal it withstand the heat for 48 hours, it can be done. At the temps that high I would have waited to ship the animal out, or at the least have it held at the nearest FedEx station and have him pick it up at 8:30 in the morning.
Thanks
Justyn

Seamus Haley, I noticed that Ken is a friend of yours. When I stated it was 8:14 that was his time, it was 11:14pm my time. Really no need for name calling. I understand alot of you have had good dealing with him. My shipping methods have worked for years so I know for a fact that would not have been a problem had the box been recieved when they tried to deliver it in the morning.

Intense Herpetoculture said:

First off, I though this guy was in Las Vegas??? Second, it never says they were attempted to be delivered at 8:48, it states that they arrived at the FedEx Ramp in Cleveland OH, AKA the FedEx STATION in Cleveland OH! Not his front doorstep! Mind posting the rest of the shipment information to validate you claim?

Also, I have always found it wise to try to pack each animal to withstand 48 hours of being within a shipment just in case, even if the package is guaranteed to arrive in only 14 hours. While I know it can be difficult to package an animal it withstand the heat for 48 hours, it can be done. At the temps that high I would have waited to ship the animal out, or at the least have it held at the nearest FedEx station and have him pick it up at 8:30 in the morning.
Thanks
Justyn

Click to expand...

8:48 am
Delivery attempt
LAS VEGAS NV
Customer not available or Business closed

Bobby

Were you shipping to a business or residential address?

Justyn, the Cleveland post is for the previous day. Apparently the package was dropped off at FedEx at 8:48 a.m. the day prior to delivery, which means the animals were actually in transit for more than 24 hours.

It would seem that the long transit, packaging, and temps all played a part in the demise of the snakes. Such a shame.

I do believe it's relevant for Ken to come here and let us know when he expected the shipment and why he wasn't there to receive it. Most FedEx drivers know what time businesses open and make their schedule accordingly for packages that must arrive by 10:30 a.m.

Ok, I guess I just cannot read the post correctly, sorry about that, it's just to early! That is a lot of time in transit for an animal packaged the way it was. I can clearly see why the animals were DOA.
Thanks
Justyn

Bobby, I have already gotten the responses I was looking for from a far more credible source but just to make it public until Ken gets a chance to come post, answer the following questions-

Did you contact him about a trade or did he contact you?

If you contacted him, what relevance do your terms and conditions have on the transaction?

Did you ask him which shipping method/company to use?

Did you know it's 90+ degrees by 8:30-9:00 AM in Las Vegas before putting together your imappropriate packaging arrangement? If not, why not? Do you not check the forecast for areas you are shipping to?

Did you inform him well in advance that the package would be (or stood a good chance to be) arriving before 10:00 AM?

Why did you wait such a short period of time before posting a bad guy thread, when he had not, at the time of posting, replied to your last email?

Can you explain how it is not hypocritical for you to state that you will respond to emails within twenty four hours but give someone else no time whatsoever to do so in return?

Well, I am not sure where to start, so I guess I will begin at the beginning. I had posted some baby taiwan beauty snakes for sale on kingsnake. In the ad I had stated that I had 2.3. Bobby contacted me very proffesionaly, and inquired about the snakes. By this time I had already sold a pair, and told him so. I also told him that I had a very nice subadult female that I would be happy to trade to fill in for the pair. He had emailed me and offered me a pair of white-sided black ratsnakes in exchange. I have always wanted to breed these wonderful snakes, so I accepted. I sent him a link to my website, which includes not only my mailing address, but also my phone number and store hours. Monday I got an email from Bobby with a tracking #. Tuesday, I woke up and started my normal day. I checked and collected eggs from my breeders, sat down on the comp and checked and returned my mail, checked my ads, glanced at fauna, and off to work I rode. I live about 3 minutes from work. I got to work at exactly 9am, as usual, and found a notice on my door about a missed delivery. It did indeed come at 8:48 am. I have never had a delivery come so early. The note said that I needed to pick up the package after 5:30pm at the fedex office. I actually had no idea what was in the box, as I get several shipments of both drygoods, animals, and documents every single day. By now, the phone is ringing, and I started my work day at my business. I made my staff aware of some shipments of live animals coming in, and that a pair of snakes in one if the boxes was for my personal collection. The two shipments via airborne arrived, all safe and sound, insulated boxes, frozen water bottles in one, ice packs in the other. At 1pm pst, my airborne driver then arrived again, on time, to take my outgoing packages. Not long after that, the fedex guy, whom I had never seen before, set the box on my counter. I signed for it, and almost at once took it into my office and openned it. The heat radiated out of the box with enough energy for me to feel it on my face. I did not even have to look at the inside to know that nothing could have survived. My manager came in bouncing up and down, asking "whatcha get, whatcha get?" I told her it did not matter, because I was sure they were dead. The box was a plain cardboard box from the post office, no lining, not much in the way of packing ( a handful of shredded paper, not enough to hold anything inside in place), and two small plastic containers holding two very dead snakes. Both animals had themselves in their mouths. I cussed to myself, and did the only thing I could do, I went back to work. My store closes at 7pm pst. It takes me about an hour each day to wrap up whatever we were doing during business hours (move that animal, clean that cage, count out the til, etc), and as usual I left work at about 8pm. The first thing I do when I get home is go into my reptile building, and check my animals again, for water and eggs. I had no eggs that evening. I then logged on to my computer, checked my emails, and promptly emailed Bobby to tell him the bad news. (I'm very sorry this is so long, I'm trying to anticipate any questions that some might have, sorry). You saw the emails, no need to reprint them I guess. I then went about my nightly tasks, posting ads, responding to emails, cleaning cages, etc. Kim and I then took my kids to a late dinner, had a great time, and came home, bushed. I was just about to go to bed, when I was informed of this post. It was late, and I was tired, and only Seamus had responded so far, so I went to bed. There was not much I could do at that point. Now, to answer some of the comments made, yes Kelli (tell Steve hi by the way), it is very hot here, and perhaps using 20/20 hindsight, shipping should not have been attempted. However, living here, I'm prepared for the weather, and I pack animals accordingly. I have shipments going out of my store almost everyday, and although mishaps could happen, I have had no real prolbems. If an animal does arrive dead, I replace it. I don't blame the customer, I am the knowledgable one, I'm the seller, I'm the shipper, I'm the one that takes the heat. Now, as far as my shipping practices go, I normaly use (almost always) airborne. The reasons are simple. First, I checked them out before I ever started shipping anything live. The have airconditioned vans, an airconditioned facility, and the manager, several drivers, and my own route driver are all customers of mine. They know what I'm shipping. They know how important each and every package is. I label each box "live harmless reptile", and I label each box "perishable, keep at room temp". The only real risk that is taken in my shipping is between the warehouse and the plane, and if packed correctly, there is no problem there. I do try to be as safe as possible. Bobby was not, period. The box was not even labeled perishable, nothing. For all the driver knew it was a box of magazines, which they deliver to me all the time. Both fed ex and airborne and ups know my hours, they all deliver to me. They all have delivered me live animals, they usually know what's in the box. In this case, I do believe that the driver had no clue what was inside, or he would have waited for me, or called me from the number posted on my door for emergencies. Just to point out, it is now 9:20am, and the temp. outside is 97 degrees. (I usually take Thursday mornings off to work with my animals, but my staff is there now, working, no shipments expected today)
I just don't know what else to add here. I'm very sorry for all this, I'm sure Bobby is a nice guy. I would have to say that in my opinion, and I am not in the position to slam Bobby, that it was an oversight on his part not to ship the animal in a more careful way. No indication as to what was in the box, no warning about extreme temps on the box, no insulation of any kind, packing material in the box that might as well have been none at all, tiny little plastic containers that must have turned into little ovens, no cooling method of any kind used, and lastly, not imforming the carrier of my business hours (plainly found on my website). I am kinda busy a lot, and I do not live at my store. My life is my work, that's pretty much all I do, but a fair amount is done at home. Once again, I'm very sorry for this, I will in the future do all that it takes to make sure it doesn't happen again. I will make sure that anyone I deal with is made aware of my store hours by myself in any emails or phone calls, I will in the future insist that my carrier be used (I never asked what carrier Bobby was using, my oversight I guess, just for the record), I will inform all that plan on shipping to me the risks of doing so in this heat (which should drop below 100 around Oct. 15th), and I will instruct them on the way I expect the animals to be packaged for the trip here. Hey, we all make mistakes, I know I have. I'm not an expert at anything, and I'm surely not perfect. I don't really think I deserve a "BAD" label though. I do my very best at everything I do, sometimes I fail, sometimes not. To Bobby himself, I can only say this at this point. You packed them bad sir, and I got nothing out of this deal. Therefore, the beauty snakes stay with me....for now. If you wish to contact me and attempt to work something out to our mutual satisfaction, I'm up for that. I don't want any hard feelings, but I, like you, am a business man. We both want to show a profit. Neither one of us wants a loss of any kind. I can't afford to ship out something for nothing, and I know you can't either. Of course the biggest shame of all is that two wonderful animals are dead, and boy, I really wanted them for myself. It is regretable. A few extra minutes would have made a world of difference. I am willing to send you some nice insulated boxes at a nominal fee if you need them.
To Kelli and all the others that have provided constructive remarks, thank you. To Seamus, my good friend, please, calm down! Actually, thank you sir very much, but I will handle it from here. You are a good friend. Thanks. Once again, sorry this is so long.