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David Van Houten, Logan Enterprises. Use extreme CAUTION!

C

Casey Hulse

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I hate to write negative posts, but I feel that this post is needed to possibly save others from making a mistake.
I purchased a 100% het albino baby ball python from David Van Houten, Logan Enterprises in Oct, 2002 from an ad he had on Kingsnake. I requested he send me a pictured certificate with the snake to verify my snakes genetics. I did receive the snake and the certificate. I bred the female last yr. to a proven het albino male and the female produced 8 normal babies. I contacted David Van Houten and informed him. He assured me the snake was a het that he had produced using an albino male.
This yr. I bred the female to an albino male, the pairing produced 8 normal babies.
I contacted David and told him I felt he "scammed" me and I would like a refund. He apparently does not give refunds and does not have any guarantee regarding the genetics. I think if this was truly a 100% het he would have jumped at the chance to reacquire her for the price of a baby, but he does not seem so inclined. He did offer up some references to prove his integrity. I contacted a couple of them and they pretty much said they would not deal with him again. I realize she could possibly be a het. but also feel that David would have "bought" her back if she was. After all, isn't an adult proven 100% het. albino female worth more than $600?
 
Did his "references" give reason as to why they would not deal with him anymore?
 
sorry

I agree with you, if you bred her twice with no albinos being produced twice in a row something is wrong.What does the documents say if anything about guarantees? It seems to me we might have another black-eye added to the reptile world.Also i am sorry to read that this happened to you.
 
What does the documents say if anything about guarantees?
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"hatched out 7/02 and is the offspring of an albino male bred to a normal female ball python, therefore carrying the albino gene".
This is the statement from David Van Houten on the certificate with a picture of the ball python which I received in 02

Nothing about guarantees, I probably just took for granted that she was guaranteed.
 
That sucks!

Casey Hulse said:
I contacted David and told him I felt he "scammed" me and I would like a refund. He apparently does not give refunds and does not have any guarantee regarding the genetics.
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No guarantee or refund sounds like he doesn't want to stay in business much longer. $600 dollars refunded to you would have been a better investment then any interest he could make on that money.
 
Casey,

Ill agree , 2 years in a row , 8 egg clutches , and once being bred by a visual albino and no Albinos! There is very very very little chance that it is a het , idont think anyone has that bad of luck.

From what I have heard and know , Loagan Enterprises deals a lot of imports and other high end BP's for Ian G. So this snake could have been a mix up then with another. But no excuse , he should still back up what he sold you. I hope it works out though , 2 years in a row of breeding ir , is a lot of time......


Derek Federico
 
Casey Hulse said:
He apparently does not give refunds and does not have any guarantee regarding the genetics. I think if this was truly a 100% het he would have jumped at the chance to reacquire her for the price of a baby, but he does not seem so inclined. He did offer up some references to prove his integrity. I contacted a couple of them and they pretty much said they would not deal with him again. I realize she could possibly be a het. but also feel that David would have "bought" her back if she was. After all, isn't an adult proven 100% het. albino female worth more than $600?
Click to expand...
Ya, there's still a possibility that this snake is het. I have had more unlikely outcomes happen. The "odds" calculated on those things presume "all other things being equal." But if, for example, an individual has a "bad chromosome" it could be much less (or more) likely to throw the desired gametes. I have a female cornsnake who has produced about 115 male and 5 female offspring. I did raise and breed one of her female offspring and she also threw a large clutch containing only one female. :scatter:

Anyway, I would think someone would at least attempt to "make good" on it. Whether or not someone says they "don't guarantee" the genetics, providing a certificate stating that it's het is a guarantee of some sort or another, last time I checked. ;)
 
Odds

Casey, After having read the link to the previous thread on Logan Enterprises I think it's pretty safe to say the only thing that animal is het for is normal ball pythons. In that regard at least it's proven. At least now you've got some genuine hets to sell after putting an albino with it.
 
Casey Hulse said:
I
I contacted David and told him I felt he "scammed" me and I would like a refund. He apparently does not give refunds and does not have any guarantee regarding the genetics.
Click to expand...

Casey,

If he sold and represented the animal as a certain kind of animal, there is an implied warranty. With the certificate and, knowing you needed the het to breed, there is an express warranty.

Is this a het? I don't know. I'm not any expert on that. But I do know that once a fact is represented, and you bought because of it, and it turns out NOT to be that fact, someone can't just turn around and say "sorry, it isn't what I said, but no refund to you."
Here, you even said you have a written certificate and it is always a plus to get the seller's representations in writing.

If you are **sure** by now that it is not a het, I would be in small claims court in a heartbeat. Texas, for instance, has a statute providing for triple damages in consumer fraud cases.
It is good that you posted your experience so that the rest of us are warned, but truly I would not stop there.
BTW small claims are not so small anymore, many states allow controversies up to $5000, and the cost is usually quite modest, maybe $25 or so.

I do think that these sorts of actions will help clean up the industry. If someone refuses a refund, they put you in the position of going into high gear and having to post and go through all these changes as well as wasting your time with the time you spent raising and breeding your purchase.

If legal action is taken via the consumer statutes that are sprouting up in nearly every state, those who choose to dishonor obligations can be liable for multiple damages, attorneys fees, etc. depending on the state.

The obligations are there by law. If a seller represents a fact to you ('het'), unless there is a clear and written 'no warranty' clause, in most jurisdictions there IS a warranty. All you need to do is spend a very small amount of money to enforce it.
 
If you are **sure** by now that it is not a het,
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I do not think there is a way to be 100% certain whether it is carrying the albino gene. The absolute proof to me is the fact that he is not interested in getting her back for a fraction of what she is worth (if she is a het).
I have been corresponding with David since 4/10 about this. Yesterday I sent him a link to this thread and got this email from him

I guess we're done here then. No reply to my last email? I hope you are happy with the results of your actions. You apparently were finished before this ever started. Nothing but threats and accusations have ever come from you.
Click to expand...
The threat was the BOI, and I accused him of cheating me.
 
Casey Hulse said:
I do not think there is a way to be 100% certain whether it is carrying the albino gene. .
Click to expand...


Casey,

I was speaking in reptile terms, as I am not familiar enough with the whole dominant/recessive/het deal.
You need not be 100% sure for an action. In criminal actions, the burden IS heavy, you must prove your elements beyond a reasonable doubt. This is appropropriate as we are dealing with someone's life or freedom.
On the civil side the burden is much lighter. Here, their seems little doubt that this is not a het. You need not have 100%, here.
 
Casey Hulse said:
The threat was the BOI, and I accused him of cheating me.
Click to expand...


I would like to nip this right in the bud. I am not specifically talking about this deal, but about deals in general: there seem to be some people who feel like they can privately take advantage of another, but when they are called out in in public, they express outrage that their business should be there for all to see. They see publicity, and the BOI, as a threat.

Those whole are good guys and operate with integrity are proud to have the details of their deals published, because it shows just how good they are.

The BOI was created to help those who were, and are, victims of scammers because they ARE so evasive of responsibility in private.

The BOI is not a threat to those who comport themselves with honesty and integrity. Those who see it as a threat are not part of this group.
 
The threat was the BOI, and I accused him of cheating me.
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I am saying that would be what HE was refering to.
Last year I told him if she proves out he would get a "good" post from me on the BOI, and he probably assumed that he would receive a bad one if she did not prove out.
As far as the BOI is concerned, the only reason I was checking it out was I got a call out of the blue from xxxxxxxx asking if I was pissed at him for some reason. I couldn't even remember what I had sold him or why I would be angry with him so I told him so and to stop being so apologizing for something I don't even remember. He went on to explain how someone else I don't even know says I don't think he has a great rep. I tell him I don't even know who this guy is and don't worry about it. Then I decide to go check out the gossip going on, as that is all I believe goes on there anymore, and see my name brought up. To sum it up, when that girl produces albinos for you don't feel it necessary, nor do I want you, to post anything up there for me as nothing good will ever come from putting anything up there, pretty much the same reason no one really ever posts anything significant on Kingsnake's boards unless they are relatively new and trying to get their name out there. Nothing but negativity will come of it as there are way to many people just looking to start trouble and have nothing better to do with their lives.
Click to expand...

From David Van Houten last year.
 
Casey Hulse said:
I am saying that would be what HE was refering to.
.
Click to expand...

I know, Casey, I am supporting your position here.
Should you want details in how to begin a local action under consumer statutes, feel free to email me and we can go over the steps together.
 
I do not think there is a way to be 100% certain whether it is carrying the albino gene.
Click to expand...

Casey, I’m not so sure about that. Every time you breed her to that albino and you get a clutch of normal-looking babies you are strengthening your position. I will keep her for a long time and keep producing heterozygous from her. Once you have a significant number of normal offspring in your back you will have a pretty strong case. There’s no “magic number” of babies but with three clutches fathered by an albino and no albinos in 15 babies your point will be proven with a high degree with certainty.

The absolute proof to me is the fact that he is not interested in getting her back for a fraction of what she is worth (if she is a het).
Click to expand...

And I agree 100% with you on this. It reminds me of CMG when he wouldn’t accept in return a “heterozygous for pied” female (on which ticks had been discovered) and all her clutch.

As far as Van Houten’s statement about the BOI one just needs to read the link to the corallus site. At a point in time I had contemplated the possibility of buying from him but completely disregarded it after reading that thread.

Thanks
 
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