What is wrong with people (a Hamburg story)

The Northwestern Berks Reptile Show (aka Hamburg) has long been one of my favorites. This stems back to my old life when I had lots of venomous, crocodilians, and various WC animals that just couldn't be readily found. I have gone to only 2 shows this year, Hamburg, PA both times. I braved the construction today, but that is not what I am sounding off about.

There have been several discussions about the responsibilities of vendors when selling potentially dangerous reptiles...whether venomous, large, or aggressive. Today, I want to tell about a conversation I overheard between a customer and a vendor:
I was examining an animal at a table in the venomous section, when a young man (a kid, really...I would be very surprised if he was 18) stepped up to ask some questions about a snake he had bought earlier.
After announcing that he had a couple of questions, he proceeded to ask if there was anything special he should know about when he held it (he now has my full, and unabashed, attention). He said that he knew he wasn't supposed to handle it, but obviously he's going to have to in order to clean the cage and stuff. (the vendor notices my attention, and gives me a look...as if to say What an idiot. of course, that is just my interpretation) The vendor tells him that he really needs to use a hook, then adds You do have a hook, don't you?. The kid responds that he is going to buy one before he leaves, then asks if he would get the snake up near the neck with it. The vendor starts trying to explain hooking a cobra (for those of you that don't keep them - they don't sit still on a hook, so a certain amount of dexterity with them is required. Given half a chance, they will get off the hook OR turn around and climb up the handle toward you), then adds that if he tries to tail it (grab the cobra by the tail - when done in conjunction with hooking, this gives a pretty good level of control over the snake) he should be very careful because it would turn right around and get him. The kid then asked if he should get one of those hooks that grabs it (meaning Pillstrom tongs). The response was that that might be a good idea for him, until he got used to using a hook. As the kid turned, the vendor blurted out a reminder: Just be careful, then turned to me.
I shook my head and said Kinda makesyou wish you could call a Do-Over and get that one back, doesn't it. What did you sell him
Turns out it was an Egyptian cobra.
Boot to the head for both the kid and the vendor.
I know this is not an isolated incident, but it makes me wonder how PA has managed to avoid restrictions on the sale/purchase/keeping of venomous reptiles...maybe it has something to do with the fact that there are shows every 2 months or so - the idiots get lucky and realize they are in over their heads, and just bring the whole darned setup in to trade. Better than people getting bitten (bad press) or animals being allowed to die of neglect (though I'm sure that happens, too)

As a side note, the void dealer was there...most of his stuff looked like . I noticed THAT before I noticed whose table it was...in fact, I only looked up to the sign as I walked away to see who was trying to pawn that stuff off on people

Unfortunately I've seen this happen myself. I tend to blame the vendor just as much if not more than the uninformed customer.
Such customers are often completely ignorant about the seriousness of keeping such snakes and are looking for some ego trip by being able to say they own a cobra.
The vendors however are expereinced and should know enough to properly screen potential customers to ensure they are capable of maintaining such an animal.
This is the entire reason I do not deal in hots. I keep them, but as of yet I have never sold one. I still own the rattlers I have produced. I simply do not want the responsibility of putting a venomous animal in someone else's hands unless I know them well enough to know they are capable of properly keeping it.

I honestly do not see how some vendors are able to sleep at night for wondering when one of their customers will be the subject of the next news article about the guy who got envenomated due to complete lack of experience.

I am of the opinion that venomous, and to a lesser extent giant constrictors, are the biggest threats to our hobby due to the failure of those selling them to properly screen customers.
I do not advocate banning the keeping of either group of animals, but vendors simply must put a greater importance on making sure a potential buyer is knowledgable that on turning a profit.
There are currently many times more animals in these two catagories available in the marketplace than there are qualified keepers to keep them. This will inevitably result in many of them going to people who have no business with them.
Keeping a venomous snake, be it a copperhead or a gaboon viper, is a serious step that the uninitiated all too often do not fully appreciate. I've seen people at shows looking at buying a cobra as their first snake. The sad fact is if vendor #1 refuses to sell one to them then vendor #2 will, or #3 or #4.

I fully understand the issue from the other side as well. I remember being 18 years old and a fellow I knew had an adult egyptian cobra for sale, cage and everything, for $50. I had zero experience keeping hots, but decided I wanted that cobra.
Thankfully my girlfriend (now my wife) managed to talk me out of it. It's the one and only time she has ever protested the purchase of a snake, but she was entirely correct, it was far too dangerous for me at that time. Now that I do have a better understanding of keeping hots, I don't even want a cobra.

It always pains me to go to a show and see baby gaboon vipers for $65. Such a seriously dangerous animal in a price range most anyone would consider cheap. I was at a show a couple of years ago and an announcment was made over the PA about an hour before the end of the show that a certain vendor had timber rattlers for $15. Thirty minutes later they were 10. Someone that anxoius not to take them back home with him is probably not going to be overly concerned about the level of experience of the buyer. This mentality has to be corrected or the inevitable result will be legislation to correct it for us.
This topic aggravates me to the point that I could rant about it indefinately so I'll let someone else use the soap box for a while.

Of course I would imagine no one asks for a picture ID, right?

Nobody ever asked any questions of me, but when I was buying hots, I usually had a vendor tag (or was known, by sight).

The thing that gets me is that these vendors get so angry about any rumor about anything that might impact their ability to sell (hots)...but they fail to see how their own business practices might be viewed as THE problem.

I can't imagine anyone being that damn irresponsible.

It's one of those things that REALLY makes a person want to

This is a very interesting conversation, one that I have spoken to my Fiance about a number of times. We live in PA and he likes going to the PA shows because of the hots. He is really nuts over the copperheads & the gaboons, but I have firmly told him a number of times that he & I both need to be trained by a professional prior to me even considering it. I have absolutely no experience with anything venomous, so I obviously can not give him any advice or help. He did ask me if their were any classes he could take or permit requirements, and was surprised when I told him in PA there were not. We both are a bit disappointed that their is no control over Venomous in PA, and both worry about show attendees when seeing hots at shows (seeing the example Harald pointed out as a perfect one).

I would be interested in seeing how this thread progresses.

Don't be disappointed that there are no controls by the State...while there is the chance that any regulation there might be well thought out and structured, that was not the case in NY. The initial State law regarding venomous was a knee jerk reaction to somebody getting bitten...the law was passed, then turned over to DEC to set up the permit requirements. That was not too bad, because there was a good group of people working on that. Jump to the present, and further restrictive legislation has passed (not centered on hots, but including them) which seems to have left the old venomous system obsolete. Believe me, it is not my desire to see even well intended legislation...I just wish people would use a bit of judgement. (of course, that opens up a whole other can of worms, lol)

ps If I lived closer, I would teach you...though despite my experience I don't consider myself a "professional"

Maybe an option would be to work for a while with the meanest colubrid or boid you can find advertised. Those that in the ad state "this snake will not make a good pet" or "it's only for experienced hobbyists". One that comes to mind is a mean blood python, if you master being able to work with it, clean his cage, etc. without being bitten for a year or so, then you are probably ready for other challenges!

The few times I've been to Hamburg (twice) I've seen just what Harald has described. One year it was two teens with an eyelash viper, don't remember what the other venomous sold was...

It's sad when you live in a state (well, commonwealth) and you are kinda leanin' towards MORE government interference...Ummm parents, step up please lol, quit letting your kids get whatever they want. and I'm not saying there aren't very responsible minor herp keeper's either, I just don't think it is a good idea at all. At the lest, require a parent or legal guardian's signature...I know there's probably more to it, and I'm also not knocking the vendors right to sell hots...It just looks like more bad press waiting to happen...

Originally Posted by cka

The few times I've been to Hamburg (twice) I've seen just what Harald has described. One year it was two teens with an eyelash viper, don't remember what the other venomous sold was...

It's sad when you live in a state (well, commonwealth) and you are kinda leanin' towards MORE government interference...Ummm parents, step up please lol, quit letting your kids get whatever they want. and I'm not saying there aren't very responsible minor herp keeper's either, I just don't think it is a good idea at all. At the lest, require a parent or legal guardian's signature...I know there's probably more to it, and I'm also not knocking the vendors right to sell hots...It just looks like more bad press waiting to happen...

I agree Chris. What would it take for a vendor to request a picture ID to verify the age? Someone may argue that age has little to do with it and it's experience that counts. But bars have been closed down because they fail to check the age of kids going in. This is far worse and no one does nothing about it! In my opinion selling hots to minors is not much different that selling them any other item that might kill them in a few minutes. That's extremely irresponsible.