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Terry Lilley at Central Coast Reptile Research Center

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Help, I think I have been ripped off!

I bought 1.1 Bolivian Amarali from this guy. When I received the shipment I was sort of skeptical in regards to what the snakes actually were. I asked a few people around here and they said that these were not Bolivian Amarali (maybe some mix of sort). On top of that these are not even the snakes in the pics he sent me when I bought them. I have attached a pic of the female and I will try and attach a pic of the male once I figure out how to do it. Please help!
Thanks!
 

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here is the pic of the male
 

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Species ????

I'm no "expert" but I'm going to have to have to go with Neil on this one .... those don't look like bolivian amarali to me either, sorry if they aren't.
 
I got them from Terry Lilley at Central Coast Reptile Research Center. When I bought them I didn't know about this Forum. By the time I found out about Fauna classified and read about Mr. Lilley it was to late and I could only hope that he would come through...I guess not. I e-mailed him and he still maintains that these are proven/main bloodlines in the US. He also claims to have sold some of these lines to Joe Terry and Kerry King(I know who Joe Terry is, but not sure about Kerry King). He said that he would have me send the snakes back to him, if it wasn't for the CITES (I am from Canada), he probably thought that it would be too difficult or something. Well I told him that it's no problem, it only takes 7-10 days here in Canada for the permits. Well, I haven't heard from him in a week and I don't know what to do now.
 
Well ain't that a kick in the teeth!!.... Terry was one of the main reason I got banned from this site for awhile.... obviously, I put my faith in all the WRONG people!.... Dave Lawson, Terry Lilly, Angela Coker, Melanie Daunhauer, Robert Frank, just to name a few.... I'll be the first one to admit it, too!
I guess that's what happens when you're just too darn trusting.... I wonder who'll be next.... I feel like such a patsy!

Neil
 
Please note that one of the rules for posting in the BOI is that the topic line MUST contain the name of the person the thread is about.

You have two options at this point:
  • (1) I can delete this thread
  • (2) You can state in this thread that it is OK for me to edit the topic line and put the person's name in there.

If there is no response to this within a reasonable amount of time, option number 1 will be invoked by default.
 
Webslave -
it is OK for you to edit the topic line and put the person's name in there.

Sorry, I must of misunderstood the instructions.
 
Did Mr. Lilley send the animals with CITES documentation? If he is concerned about the CITES and you shipping them back to him that should tell you something. If they were the correct species and the CITES was legal and correct he would not have a problem with you sending them back. I would be willing to bet that he did not have the shipment cleared through USF&W for the legal export process to send them to you in the first place. If he did not he will have violated the Lacey act and can be subject to Prison time and heavy fines. Please let me know the answers to these questions as I would love to turn him into USF&W for an illegal export.

I will say this about the animals. They do not have all the characteristics of the true Bolivian Amarali but they do look similar.
 
question

Do you have the pics of the snakes you were "suppose to be buying ? you said they werent the same ones he sent you pics of that you were to buy ? if so post them here as well . Sorry but IMO they dont look like any bolivians i have seen but more like Neil said a this under fed surinam ... sorry about the way you were done , and i would suggest what rob stated check the Cities papers and if there wrong well give Mr.Lilly somthing to ponder next time he does this type of deal .
 
They look like Surinams and not even decent ones. Sorry. Kerry King is a reptile hobbyist and also plays in the band Slayer.
 
amarali

I have had Bolivian "amarali" in the past and those pics you posted look nothing like any Amaral's boa I have seen. The main difference between B. c. constrictor and B. c. amarali is the length (in proportion to the body) of the tail and the number of tail blotches after the vent. Normally they have 4-5 blotches after the tail, yours seem to have 6-7. The tail of amarali is very blunt compared to the other "true" red tails. In my un-expert opinion, yours are not Bolivian amarali.

Here is a pic of the tail of the adult female Bolivian I used to have. Bad pic, but it shows the stubby tail and few blotches. Hope this helps!
 

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Does anyone know if it actuall SNOWED in hell sometime in the last couple of days because it seems that neil and I are on the same page here. I've had surinames for years and occasionally considered bolivians but never gotten them. The pictures you posted sure look like surinames to me as well. They are two very different snakes when you see them side by side.

I would be rather irritated were I you and would definately check into what could be done about shipping without CITES paperwork. Not to mention that I REALLY don't think those are amarali.

Wes Pollock
 
Just to agree, or state as fact......Those are Not Bolivians! Wild caught ugly Surinams/Guyanas maybe, but not Bolivians by any stretch! I have had them all.
 
Terry Lilley has been a big name since I was a kid. I can't understand why he would put it at risk over such a thing.
Perhaps he will respond on the BOI.
 
Given Lilley's past, it's pretty likely that the animals were misrepresented BUT...

As much as the assorted Boa constrictor ssp. have certain phenotypical tendencies and you can say that an animal "Looks" like a certain subspecies or locale, it's not a definite way to determine if that is or is not the case.

Has anyone done a scale count here?

If the animals are subspecific intergrades, then it might be inconclusive in determining the actual subspecies but that in itself is evidence enough of misrepresentation given the circumstances (meaning the animals were represented as pure and should have the proper scale count for B. c. amarali

As an easy and verified accurate internet source for scale counts, I suggest http://home.att.net/~crinaustin/BoaGeneral.htm it also lists phenotypical differences but notes the questionable accuracy of using this as a method of identification.

Do a scale count, post the results, nail Lilley to a wall.

I'm just uneasy with subspecific identification done solely off pattern or color, it's too easy to get an oddball animal (or pair of animals) that simply have some phenotypical variations. This holds especially true for species like Boa constrictor where the subspecific lines are a bit muddy to begin with in long term captive populations and debate still exists about the validity of certain designations (e.g.- Boa constrictor mexicana).
 
Seamus, I agree with what you are saying. And I believe what you are saying would apply more so to the Surinams and Guyanas.

However, aside from the color and or saddle count/ appearence, those animals posted do not have the Amarali body structure. Bolivian's and Brazilian Amarali have a much shorter and stocky body, short tails.

They may be intergrads......not sure. In my opinion, they are not Amarali.
 
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